Chinese troops destroy Indian posts, bunker

[funtz]

Chinese troops destroy Indian posts, bunker
1 Dec 2007, 0112 hrs

KOLKATA/GANGTOK: A few weeks before the first ever India-China military exercises, the real war games have begun. On November 8, Chinese forces demolished some unmanned Indian forward posts near two Army bunkers against which Beijing had raised objections since July.

"The Chinese came, destroyed the posts and went back," said an Army officer. The incident is learned to have taken place around November 8.

The revelation came on the day a 12-member People's Liberation Army delegation landed in Kolkata on a recce for the military exercises to be held next month in China.

The destroyed posts were near the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet border tri-junction. Intelligence sources in Gangtok on Friday said that a "third bunker" located near the two disputed ones had been destroyed by the Chinese. But, Army sources attached to formations overseeing the location said the structures were fibre glass huts, which are manned by a few soldiers when winter sets in.

Senior Army officers in Kolkata were tightlipped about the incident, particularly because the Chinese army delegation led by a senior colonel is in the city. "I have nothing to comment," said a defence spokesman.

The two disputed bunkers at Doka La, near Torsa Nala, had been set up about two years ago. The Chinese first objected to them in July, after which a series of border personnel meetings took place till September. Beijing wanted the bunkers to be shifted but the Indian Army stood its ground and continued to man and arm the bunkers.

The Chinese were left smarting. It is believed the attack on the unmanned posts earlier this month were carried out by the PLA "to show their strength".

Indian officials feel if the Chinese had any objection against these bunkers they should have lodged a protest soon after they were established, or at least within a year.

Border disputes between China and India are nothing new, because China does not recognise the border and even triggered a war over it. Even the Line of Actual Control is difficult to demarcate at places because of the mountainous terrain. Two decades ago, in 1986, the two countries had come perilously close to a skirmish in the Sumdorong Chu valley.

In view of the latest dispute, the visit of Defence Minister A K Anthony and chief of Army staff Deepak Kapoor to Sikkim and north Bengal during the weekend is being considered significant. They will land in Siliguri on Saturday and visit the border at Nathu La on Sunday.

However, military observers believe confidence-building measures like joint war exercises will prove instrumental in easing border tensions.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...y_Indian_posts_bunker/articleshow/2586346.cms

This is wonderful, nfloorl: a army that can not even defend its own fiber glass huts.
About time this came out into the open, the Chinese are getting serious over the border disputes, some more material to tease the army with. What is the use of a million men army if the integrity of borders is coming in question every month or so.
Some time back the Chinese apparently tried the same thing with Bhutan.

Report: Chinese army intrudes Bhutan
NDTV Correspondent
Tuesday, October 9, 2007 (New Delhi)
In a shocking revelation, sources in the government have said that the Chinese army may have intruded into Bhutan.

Indian government is talking to both China and Bhutan for more details. India plays a large role in Bhutan's foreign policy.

This is not the first time such an intrusion has happened in Bhutan. The Chinese army has intruded into Indian territory as well.

MEA officials say that this has been a negotiating tactic by the Chinese to put pressure on Bhutan in settling its border with China. Sixteenrounds of talks have already been held.

Army sources claim that usually, the Chinese intrude Bhutan during summer in order to keep their claim on the territory alive.

Bhutan and China share a 470 km long border, but they do not have diplomatic relations.

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070028789&ch=10/9/2007 7:28:00 PM

Some diplomatic steps should be taken to get them busy else where.

 

[RubiconNZ]

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Chinese troops destroy Indian posts, bunker
1 Dec 2007, 0112 hrs IST

,

Nirmalya Banerjee & Amalendu Kundu

,

TNN

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...y_Indian_posts_bunker/articleshow/2586346.cms
This is wonderful, nfloorl: a army that can not even defend its own fiber glass huts.
[/FONT]

Why start a war over fibre glass huts? I think that would be worse.

 

[funtz]

with the level of armor protection that the 'Fiber glass huts' provide, the army might as well make the army men carry tents to protect from the A-freezing cold.

but seriously fiber glass huts on the China border, i mean come on.

Hope the army sends a bill for the Hut to Beijing nfloorl:

 

[Incognito129]

If the chinese aren't careful the rest of the world will just end up fracturing China into smaller countries.

 

[funtz]

what!!

where did that come from, I do not think any one cares, its a Indo-Sino issue, apparently unresolved after what 60 years and a war.

I think the next guy who have to man that place will have some four letter words to say when he has to stay in open in that cold cold place.

 

[indian bull]

Chinese troops destroy Indian posts, bunker
1 Dec 2007, 0112 hrs

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...y_Indian_posts_bunker/articleshow/2586346.cms

This is wonderful, nfloorl: a army that can not even defend its own fiber glass huts.
About time this came out into the open, the Chinese are getting serious over the border disputes, some more material to tease the army with. What is the use of a million men army if the integrity of borders is coming in question every month or so.
Some time back the Chinese apparently tried the same thing with Bhutan.

http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070028789&ch=10/9/2007 7:28:00 PM

Some diplomatic steps should be taken to get them busy else where.

What can be expected from this country which is ruled by communists who have expansionist thinking who are occupying Tibbet and Taiwan forcefuly and claim territory of many nations in the neighbour. They also enjoy supporting other closed system societies like North Korea, Iran and pakistan and burma and so on. India on its part have shown a lot of restraint in past and is showing even now. These chinese are responssible for nuclear and missile proliferation to other countries alike them and their designs had forced us to go nuclear. I advocate our govt. to go and test more ballistic missiles and develop a bigger nuclear arsenal which it can do to show the chinese that they won't be spared if they dare to attack us or other small nations in the region.:bull

 

[funtz]

What can be expected from this country which is ruled by communists who have expansionist thinking who are occupying Tibbet and Taiwan forcefuly and claim territory of many nations in the neighbour. They also enjoy supporting other closed system societies like North Korea, Iran and pakistan and burma and so on. India on its part have shown a lot of restraint in past and is showing even now. These chinese are responssible for nuclear and missile proliferation to other countries alike them and their designs had forced us to go nuclear. I advocate our govt. to go and test more ballistic missiles and develop a bigger nuclear arsenal which it can do to show the chinese that they won't be spared if they dare to attack us or other small nations in the region.:bull

I do not think all of that concerns this, the fact is border disputes are there (no one can deny that), and that it seems that if these things keep on happening the end result is misery and nothing else, a very strong reaction now backed by even stronger diplomatic steps can help in that.

More ballistic missile tests which have the range to hit us after a global journey or building a nuclear arsenal big enough to be called ‘absolutely unnecessary, over expensive, down right mammoth and aggressive weapons enough to blow every one ten times over’ instead of the ‘minimum credible nuclear deterrence’ will achieve very littlie as in case of a limited conflict the chances of this being an advantage are very low.

India can even accuse neighbors of being some sort of devil worshipping cult however the ground reality even then remains the same.

What is needed are strong military maneuvers (Army, Navy and Air Force) with enough publicity and shared intelligence to third nations (so that it is not confused for war), and this backed by a equally strong and publicly obvious moves towards other nations and military relationships, with this very aggressive diplomatic approach towards Beijing to prove that there is another way to be,
A way to hit them with soft methods is to get them busy in other border disputes that exist and be a part of it. Some of this seems to be happening already however the pace can be increased.

A single minded approach towards peace in the region will achieve nothing, and as is obvious China knows this, the current moves are exactly that strong military maneuver moves that intend to project a strong point, the point being what they think of the border dissagrements.

There can be no peace if one is not willing to make a strong military show of power.

Strictly diplomatic steps might work in case of border disputes with Bangladesh and relations with Myanmar where there is a move towards disengaging or reducing the strategic Chinese presence, for which military reactions can only work to harm the process, with China these methods bear no fruits.

 

[Chino]

I think it is all quite funny. I imagine the Chinese wait till no one is around in the bunkers, walk up to them, blew them up, and then walked off.

All very casual and un-military.

And then the Indians did no retaliation.

I think this is all good. If you guys can maintain things like this you'll soon be buddies.

 

[indian bull]

I do not think all of that concerns this, the fact is border disputes are there (no one can deny that), and that it seems that if these things keep on happening the end result is misery and nothing else, a very strong reaction now backed by even stronger diplomatic steps can help in that.

More ballistic missile tests which have the range to hit us after a global journey or building a nuclear arsenal big enough to be called ‘absolutely unnecessary, over expensive, down right mammoth and aggressive weapons enough to blow every one ten times over’ instead of the ‘minimum credible nuclear deterrence’ will achieve very littlie as in case of a limited conflict the chances of this being an advantage are very low.

India can even accuse neighbors of being some sort of devil worshipping cult however the ground reality even then remains the same.

What is needed are strong military maneuvers (Army, Navy and Air Force) with enough publicity and shared intelligence to third nations (so that it is not confused for war), and this backed by a equally strong and publicly obvious moves towards other nations and military relationships, with this very aggressive diplomatic approach towards Beijing to prove that there is another way to be,
A way to hit them with soft methods is to get them busy in other border disputes that exist and be a part of it. Some of this seems to be happening already however the pace can be increased.

A single minded approach towards peace in the region will achieve nothing, and as is obvious China knows this, the current moves are exactly that strong military maneuver moves that intend to project a strong point, the point being what they think of the border dissagrements.

There can be no peace if one is not willing to make a strong military show of power.

Strictly diplomatic steps might work in case of border disputes with Bangladesh and relations with Myanmar where there is a move towards disengaging or reducing the strategic Chinese presence, for which military reactions can only work to harm the process, with China these methods bear no fruits.

Hey man what was the result of going soft in 1962, dealing softly with terrorism, with enemies we tried to cut the knife with a cake but ended loosing our own part. China is a country to be dealt with unconventionall means and mantaing a large nuclear arsenal is certianly less expesive than maintaining conventional forces, i mean China will feel shameful if it is tried to be dettered by soft or conventionall means by some country. And lastly whose border and land is disputed its India man, the game is played on our land.

 

[funtz]

I think it is all quite funny. I imagine the Chinese wait till no one is around in the bunkers, walk up to them, blew the
m up, and then walked off.

All very casual and un-military.

And then the Indians did no retaliation.

I think this is all good. If you guys can maintain things like this you'll soon be buddies.

If the soldiers that did this were acting individually, then yes

however i imagine that this sort of thing comes from much higher up, much much higher.

The questions are much more than a simple military bunkers, it is naive to interpret these in this way.

Through this China has made a strong point that the situation according to them is

- The border as defined by India is not accepted.
- with out more open negotiations such actions will continue, and a heavy handed approach towards unsettled topics will be adopted when ever the chance appears. As one must remember that before destroying them China had protested about such bunkers. Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...h_says_remove_bunkers/articleshow/2385222.cms

China pushes south, says remove bunkers
20 Sep 2007, 0519 hrs IST,Nirmalya Banerjee,TNN

KOLKATA: Moves by the Chinese army along the Sikkim-Bhutan-Tibet trijunction, culminating in a demand for removal of two Indian army bunkers near an outpost called Batang La, indicate that Beijing is pushing south for more elbow room in the area, a senior official in charge of security of the international border said in Kolkata on Wednesday.

When one ties all of this with the overall military situation, a strategic puzzle seems to appear involving many factors that might be considered out of topic in this thread.
All in all another show of Sino-Indo friendship will result in China achieving the diplomatic goals of such moves.

 

[funtz]

Hey man what was the result of going soft in 1962, dealing softly with terrorism, with enemies we tried to cut the knife with a cake but ended loosing our own part. China is a country to be dealt with unconventionall means and mantaing a large nuclear arsenal is certianly less expesive than maintaining conventional forces, i mean China will feel shameful if it is tried to be dettered by soft or conventionall means by some country. And lastly whose border and land is disputed its India man, the game is played on our land.

Going soft with military maneuvers.

1962 is something that is far more complex than the available one dimentional situations that are painted, something not worth our time to disscuss here, i could PM you and continue this discussion there

what i meant was a far more planned diplomatic action backed with military actions.

For example in the coming months something in the lines of:

moves that suggest a (existent or non existent) military beef up in the borders in questions and publicly visible events involving the Tibetan leadership in exile and something like a state dignitary visiting Taiwan with some mention in media through anonymous sources that India will support all future moves of Taiwan towards greater international recognition,
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007-07/24/content_5442231.htm
A mutual defense pact with Bhutan with shared military resources and financial help, similar moves with Nepal through actively negotiations covering all topics, possibly conceding on some disputes to make the Nepalese government look stronger, active moves in the area towards other strong military relationships

All of this while the top tier of political leadership goes on record denying everything as speculative and paranoid.

will help more than the proposed negotiations and military exercises with Chinese military.

A very publicly drummed up version of logistics agreement with USA might help.

The leading thing being -It might these are just my thoughts people more versed in these situations than me are incharge (i hope), all i can say is no point in drumming another political visit that seem to achieve nothing of value except wastage of jet fuel.

All in all what you suggested in the last post
ballestic missile tests and nuclear race
will have no bearing on the ultimate and hopeful resolution of border disputes.

The game as you said is being played on our lands and in a isolated field , it must be expanded to include more fields and a interconnection that is good enough to raise the price of all aggresive moves.

This really is about the right time to cancel the military exercises with China, the message to me then looks like,
oh hello old boy,
lost your way to our positions did you, thats all right, it is a damn foggy place.(it actually is)
did you burn them for fire, it was kind of cold that day,
oh you did, no no do not thank us, now that you are there do have a little exercise with our troops, they were getting kind of rusty.nfloorl:

 

[indian bull]

As you said nukes and missiles have no effect in resolving border issue, i think exactly the opposite. Think if we end our nuclear capability now and what will happen,the same will happen to us what happened to Tibbet.

But i agree that we should adopt other tactics as you mentioned above after all a diamond cuts a diamond.

 

[indian bull]

Conventionaly dealing with china will prove more costly to us Funtz, we will loose in a convential conflict to china, but ultimately nuclear option will come into play and detter china to furthur expand the conflict. I mean US and Russia are not foolish enough if they maintain large nuclear arsenals.

Do you think that there is going to be a no conflict between India and china or India and pakistan in future.

 

[funtz]

Conventionaly dealing with china will prove more costly to us Funtz, we will loose in a convential conflict to china, but ultimately nuclear option will come into play and detter china to furthur expand the conflict. I mean US and Russia are not foolish enough if they maintain large nuclear arsenals.

Do you think that there is going to be a no conflict between India and china or India and pakistan in future.

I can not keep repeating the same thing.

We have a nuclear capability that is being taken towards the agreed levels of nuclear deterrence. And any missile tested now will take too long to get actually inducted (i.e production stage) hence that is a separate step.

It is because of this deterrence that a limited conflict is the biggest possibility. And the detterence does nothing in a limited conflict.

Any limited conflict will not involve a third nation in active military role, as it never has.

This is a statement that has been made through military moves and requires appropriate response and not a move towards a limited conflict

This situation will not lead to an immediate military conflict the Chinese are too smart they will continue to play cold games. However left alone it can cause future aggrestion.

China does not hold any advantage in conventional warfare that translates into actual military advantage in conflicts that are not long drawn affairs, This is even more true in what can only be a limited conflict. The amount of troops required to carry out a major ofensive are a big give away in themself.

The possibility of actual military conflict in future depends on too many things that I do not have control over hence can not comment over.

As for now these games might become a regular event in that border region.

And finally it was short sightedness of the Indian military leadership to miss this scenario, once China had protested against bunkers and check posts cropping up along the disputed region, we might as well have manned them to deter any such moves, a unmanned post in a disputed region is like a rich man sleeping with his house door and locker door open, not a wise thing to do.

 

[indian bull]

I can never beleive that in future Pakistan and china will sit quietly on the Himalyas. They will always keep India busy by acting aggressivly and keep claiming our land and may be we see a Kargil like misadventure in near future.

 

[indian bull]

Hey guys latest statement by Indian defence minister says that one of those bunkers were on Bhutanese side not in Indian territory, but these bunkers belonged to Indian troops,but anyhow it is not good behaviour from chinese side. But a confusion still persists of other two bunkers.

 

[funtz]

This is just face saving; the place is a tri junction, for the Chinese the Bunkers are on Chinese land where ever they are. That is the problem the Chinese wish to stress upon by this move, that no one knows what the actual border/boundary is.

This is just weird, I guess this will be the end of it I think the response by the Indian government and the think tank in Delhi is:
“We will not let this come out in the open and through actively denying the attention that the Chinese seek to impart this issue, we cancel their moves.”
I think this might work in the short term but this is just like waiting for a military aggression to occur.

"The Chinese came, destroyed the posts and went back," said an Army officer.

 

[Chino]

What can be expected from this country which is ruled by communists who have expansionist thinking who are occupying Tibbet and Taiwan forcefuly and claim territory of many nations in the neighbour. They also enjoy supporting other closed system societies like North Korea, Iran and pakistan and burma and so on. India on its part have shown a lot of restraint in past and is showing even now. These chinese are responssible for nuclear and missile proliferation to other countries alike them and their designs had forced us to go nuclear. I advocate our govt. to go and test more ballistic missiles and develop a bigger nuclear arsenal which it can do to show the chinese that they won't be spared if they dare to attack us or other small nations in the region.:bull

I think both China and India suck as nations.

While all that you said about China is true, India is itself FAR FAR AWAY from being a model nation. India may be democratic in name but millions are virtual slaves due to poverty.

And this is a border issue. So why not just keep it as that? The issue should be resolved based on the merit of all facts presented.

 

[indian bull]

Funtz You are right, this type of response is normal for Indian govt. They will ignore it untill chinese occupy more land and more Indian positions, the same thing happened during Kargil, intelligence reports that pak sponsored millitants are infilterating and occupying heights were ignored.
I think the weakness is on our side, we try to deal soft.
Why not we retaliate and destroy some of their posts, i think we should retaliate in the same language so that to show chinese that they will not be spared for their misbehaviour.
I mean that they are not the guys who will be dettered by border talks, they certianly want to see some dead bodies of their soldiers before they are to be dettered.

 

[Chino]

You are right, this type of response is normal for Indian govt. They will ignore it untill chinese occupy more land and more Indian positions, the same thing happened during Kargil, intelligence reports that pak sponsored millitants are infilterating and occupying heights were ignored.
I think the weakness is on our side, we try to deal soft.
Why not we retaliate and destroy some of their posts, i think we should retaliate in the same language so that to show chinese that they will not be spared for their misbehaviour.
I mean that they are not the guys who will be dettered by border talks, they certianly want to see some dead bodies of their soldiers before they are to be dettered.

Well, if you want to go to war over a few hundred acres of land, good for you. I do admit sometimes these things are necessary to assert one's authority.

But if you think the PLA will be deterred by " a few dead bodies ", why not read a bit of history? It's cheaper than trying it and then finding out that the opposite is true.