The Kitty Hawk Port Snub

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tphuang

Super Moderator
The recent Sino-EU summit in Beijing was a complete farce with human rights taking a backseat to trade, which I might add is currently $475 billion in the PRC's favor-the undervalued Yuan accounting for much of this and I'll be noting this in mh report to the authorities back home.
It's not that much. It's less than $200 billion.
I point out that my government made a critical error in selling the Erieye system to Pakistan because we're soon going to be seeing a Boeing 737 with an "Erieye-ling" style radar if not directly copied over the Taiwan Strait in the next 10 years.
that is incorrect. China developed KJ-200 (on a Y-8, not B737 platform) before PAF received even one Erieye.
That they elected to exercise some greater symbolic displeasure towards the US is something that only they can account for.
well, they gave a congressional medal and sold more advanced weapons to Taiwan right after Gates left and before the critical Taiwan elections. The circumstances are quite different.
Tibeten Militia attacked the Chinese occupying force and Tibet was effectively independent again by 1913. It is possible that their sensitivity with regard to Tibet amy partly due to the fact their claim is viewed unfavorably by most western comentators and a number of governments.
China views this as an extremely weak point in its history when many foreign powers were breaking up the country. If anything, this is where all the Chinese sensitivity toward separatism comes from.
Speaking of signature management..the US intelligence community believes that traitor Noshir Gowadia suceeded in compromizing the entire B-2 program through his "disclosures" to the PRC about the signature of that aircraft-prompting the accceleration of the upcoming USAF next gen bomber to compensate for the fact that the B-2 is no longer regarded as "survivable" enough to penetrate PRC airspace-a task left to the F-22A.
I really don't think that leak could've caused B-2 to be any less survivable than F-22.
 
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Gripenator

Banned Member
It's not that much. It's less than $200 billion.

that is incorrect. China developed KJ-200 (on a Y-8, not B737 platform) before PAF received even one Erieye.

I really don't think that leak could've caused B-2 to be any less survivable than F-22.
I'll answer your points one by one.

The difference in figures between my estimate and yours in general terms depends on what variables you choose to put in eg. copyright transfers, patents, unrealized income for EU companies because of piracy/knockoffs etc.
The issue here is that as a whole its getting worse in absolute terms.

Certainly the KJ-2000 is an indigenous platform but my point is that there certainly will be be some "technology bleed" from the Pakistanis to the PRC re the Erieye radar and that certain features of that same AEW system will be found in/incorportated into PLAAF AWACS/AEW aircraft in the 8-10 years time. The Y-8 'Balance Beam' is hardly a top of the range AWACS out there-but expect improvements from any sources including Western tech from ANY sources (read: Pakistan).

I must ask you, how well do you know the Gowadia case? The investigation is currently proceeding under wraps for very obvious reasons and as a person having a psychology background, I can tell you if nothing else, that the entire propulsion system was compromised including signatures and that DIA and USAF view the B-2 as critical to their strategy of 'hedging' in the AP region. However the B-2 was late 80's VLO tech while the F-22 is 2000's VLO-obviously there have been great advances meaning greater survivability-but in terms of payload, the B-2 is still the 'tip of the spear'. You can reasonably infer from this what exactly was 'sold'/compromised.

http://www.cicentre.com/Documents/DOC_Noshir_Gowadia_Case.htm
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
-prompting the accceleration of the upcoming USAF next gen bomber to compensate for the fact that the B-2 is no longer regarded as "survivable" enough to penetrate PRC airspace-a task left to the F-22A.
Its a poor geographical analogy, but Australias equiv of the white sands testing area is undergoing rapid development. everything is fast tracking.

a year ago I would have said that hypersonics was a 10 year window for a deliverable weapons system. the climates changed considerably since then, in fact the site will be back in the game for continuous T&D by end 2008 at current rates of development.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

I am continuing to play the Devil's advocate and reiterate some facts...

(i) ILS does not cover place of refuge.

I think I have made the point clear in the imo link. UNCLOS and ILS covers distress and force majeure but does not cover place of refuge.

(ii) US is not a signatory of UNCLOS

By that definition, China is under no obligation to provide UNCLOS coverage to non-participating vessels. Whilst the US is in voluntary compliance, there is no binding agreement compelling China to comply. Isn't it mischievious to argue otherwise...

(iii) Customary law dictates...

I have yet to read any customary law that compels anyone to provide a place of refuge to warships. I'm not saying that countries can't volountarily provide place of refuge to warships. I'm saying that since everyone is claiming it is compulsory under customary law, it wouldn't and shouldn't be difficult to point out the relevant laws that cover warships isn't it, especially when international law normally designates warships as a special category...

Just because I donate to the poor doesn't mean everyone is compelled to donate to the poor. Same principle applies.

Just because places of refuge has been granted to warships doesn't make it COMPULSORY for ALL nations to grant places of refuge to warships.

The purpose of highlighting the Australian regulation is that most nations like the Australians distinguish warships as a separate category. That IS a consistent stand of international law.

(iv) Providing place of refuge is not a compulsory action

My points in highlighting the various instances where places of refuge have not granted is merely to point out that there are circumstances where a nation can decide when not to grant a place of refuge. There are other numerous examples. Accordingly, the cries of foul play is inconsistent with the facts in this instance.

The irony is that if the US ratifies UNCLOS, at the least, it can invoke the force majeure article covering distress. Whilst a place of refuge may not be accorded, a distress ship can still avail to anchor in safe waters. In that sense, the US govt can be faulted themselves by not protecting their own vessels under international law. It is very much trying to have a cake and eat it. A very consistent stand of certain nations...

In the case of the US, I would say that this provides some impetus to the senate to approve ratification. If I'm not wrong, the ratification process finally went to senate on 31 Oct 2007.

Still, I would highlight again, that I do not approve of Chinese actions in relation to the minesweepers. I agree that lives should never be risked in those circumstances. I would have said the spirit of christmas should prevail. The only problem is assuming the chinese celebrate christmas...
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I am continuing to play the Devil's advocate and reiterate some facts.....
At the end of the day, the inconsistency of behaviour - demonstrates policy schizophrenia. That in itself then raises issues of persistency and consistency. At a diplomatic level thats a nightmare scenario as you cannot assume outcomes under events that are normally regarded as a "given". As a country you are perceived as unreliable, unsophisticated and at best, petulant. All of which mould mistrust.

It changes the way that negotiations will be handled in future, it implies that good faith, that representative behaviour of goodwill and protection that is uniformly expected will ne enacted upon. (eg the americans went to the assistance of a north korean freighter under attack by somali pirates recently, showing that ideology has no place when sailors are at risk)

You can imagine the hue and cry if chinese trawlers were denied access to guam, or hawai'i due to their concerns about surviving a typhoon. There would be thinly veiled hysteria about a flaw in their (US) moral compass.

I'd be interested to see Alexas or Wookis take on this as they are both or have been in the relevant occupational role to pass comment about the conventions.....
 
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tphuang

Super Moderator
I'll answer your points one by one.

The difference in figures between my estimate and yours in general terms depends on what variables you choose to put in eg. copyright transfers, patents, unrealized income for EU companies because of piracy/knockoffs etc.
The issue here is that as a whole its getting worse in absolute terms.
when we talk bout piracy, it's anyone's guess how much is the real loss. A bunch of teenagers pirated some CDs. Would they have got those CDs if they had to pay full price for them? Probably not. Official trading surplus is there for a reason. These "adjusted surplus" have way too much bias built into them. And think about the other issue here, if you guys are not buying those cheap clothing/toys from China, you'd just buy it from another 3rd world country. So you have to look at how much additional import you are doing because of China and how much additional export you are doing because of China.
Certainly the KJ-2000 is an indigenous platform but my point is that there certainly will be be some "technology bleed" from the Pakistanis to the PRC re the Erieye radar and that certain features of that same AEW system will be found in/incorportated into PLAAF AWACS/AEW aircraft in the 8-10 years time. The Y-8 'Balance Beam' is hardly a top of the range AWACS out there-but expect improvements from any sources including Western tech from ANY sources (read: Pakistan).
PAF have actually said in interview with kanwa that they have believe the export Y-8 AEW has more functionalities. I'm sorry, but this idea that China needs to inspect Erieye is based on the stereotype that everything China has is behind the curve. Anyhow, dreadfully off topic, I will stop this part here.
I must ask you, how well do you know the Gowadia case? The investigation is currently proceeding under wraps for very obvious reasons and as a person having a psychology background, I can tell you if nothing else, that the entire propulsion system was compromised including signatures and that DIA and USAF view the B-2 as critical to their strategy of 'hedging' in the AP region. However the B-2 was late 80's VLO tech while the F-22 is 2000's VLO-obviously there have been great advances meaning greater survivability-but in terms of payload, the B-2 is still the 'tip of the spear'. You can reasonably infer from this what exactly was 'sold'/compromised.

http://www.cicentre.com/Documents/DOC_Noshir_Gowadia_Case.htm
not well, my comment has more to do with the overall PLA doctrine toward anti-stealth rather than anything else. It's not specifically aimed at one platform. I was under the impression that B-2 and F-22 are at around the same magnitude in terms of LO.
 

funtz

New Member
That article was in May 2007. Using that article in isolation ignores the end reality.

- Did china call in the ambassador for a dressing down?
- Has china cancelled any trade delegations since then? No. In fact the most senior politician in china with respect to trade development attended the REGA conference and advised us that "business as usual" would prevail. We sat in that room as he assured us that they respected our political independence to make decisions in our own political interests - and that they were obliged to register their concerns.
Outside of that? China did nothing. zip nada, zero zilch.
Political noise colour and movement.
That they elected to exercise some greater symbolic displeasure towards the US is something that only they can account for.
You also can not say that China did nothing about it ;)
Such games they play.
That is why i gave links to other articles:
Foreign Ministry spokesman Qin Gang told reporters in Beijing that his government had written to the Australian authorities strongly protesting the visit.
''The Chinese government firmly opposes any country or government allowing the Dalai Lama to come to their territory and carry out activities which promote splitting our country,'' he said.
China says its relations with Germany have been seriously undermined by a historic meeting between the German Chancellor and the Dalai Lama.
Overview of U.S. Policy Toward Taiwan:
http://www.state.gov/p/eap/rls/rm/2004/31649.htm
something about U.S. policy on Tibet.
http://beijing.usembassy-china.org.cn/rel_freedom2006_tb.html

The rights and wrongs can be debated upon. Any one will be wrong in denying a 'safe harbor' from a storm to those who need it, and that is just as the responsibility they have as human beings.
It is also logical to say that
- Tibet is now firmly a part of PRC.
- There is no miliary solution to the Taiwan issue, any escalation in to a arms race is a mutual one, that is to say involving both PRC and ROC and can not be viewed in isolation.
- USA recognizes this in what ever policies they come out with,
- PRC has on numerous ocations failed to recognize the fact that the respected Dalai Lama is much more than just a figure for Tibetian seperatism (infact he does not want a seperate Tibet anymore), he is also for whatever reasons a figure of peace and tolerance, in this world torn with violence and many people/governments recognize this.

Based on this:
China has clearly stated that they find the presence of US military in the region and the US policy on Taiwan and Tibet as hostile(for some reason), what more clues does USA need.

China will never do anything that affects trade, that is just well the truth, even more so with the United States of America.

A Diplomatic response would have had the same effect (compared to what was done) on US policy in the region, that is to say no effect at all.

As for the respected Dalai lama, he was right here in Delhi on the Nov 14 inaugurating Vishwa Shanti Stupa (World Peace Pagoda)
Noble peace laureate Dalai Lama [Images] on Wednesday inaugurated the new Vishwa Shanti Stupa (World Peace Pagoda) in New Delhi.
The Stupa, built 30 meters high and 37 meters in diameter, has a ramp that enables easy access to physically-challenged individuals.
The inauguration ceremony was attended by several dignitaries.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/nov/14look.htm
http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx?id=18555&t=3&c=1
Just in case PRC missed this, photographic evidence of many politicians shaking hands and sharing a joke with the respected Dalai Lama :p:
Let us see what happens.
 
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gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
You also can not say that China did nothing about it
Actually, you can say that they did nothing. In diplomatic message terms, it doesn't even get on the richter scale.

A letter of protest is the lowest order of response. I've worked in a Ministerial area - I was part of the security detail for the China Task Force during Tiananmen Sq. I'm familiar with the order of graduated response.

If china was irritated with australia, then she would have called in our ambassador and stated her concerns personally. if she was really irritated she would have recalled staff or cancelled meetings. None of this happened.

At a diplomatic message level, passing a note to the embassy is almost meaningless as far as an indication of displeasure.

That's why the example of the behaviour shown to Australia which is glaringly different to the reaction against the Americans is of importance. It's disproportionate and obviously selective in its anger.
 
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weasel1962

New Member
Re:

I'm surprised that the USN and the Kitty Hawk picked HK as the port of call for Thanksgiving. Can think of a number of other ports along the way that would have welcomed the sailors with open arms, better security, cheaper beer and still get Turkey for Thanksgiving.

As childish responses could go, I think the USN might even celebrate Thanksgiving in Taipei next year ;-)
 

Transient

Member
(ii) US is not a signatory of UNCLOS

By that definition, China is under no obligation to provide UNCLOS coverage to non-participating vessels. Whilst the US is in voluntary compliance, there is no binding agreement compelling China to comply. Isn't it mischievious to argue otherwise...
Where in UNCLOS is it stated that the articles stated therein is applicable only to fellow signatories of the UNCLOS?

(iii) Customary law dictates...

I have yet to read any customary law that compels anyone to provide a place of refuge to warships. I'm not saying that countries can't volountarily provide place of refuge to warships. I'm saying that since everyone is claiming it is compulsory under customary law, it wouldn't and shouldn't be difficult to point out the relevant laws that cover warships isn't it, especially when international law normally designates warships as a special category...

Just because I donate to the poor doesn't mean everyone is compelled to donate to the poor. Same principle applies.

Just because places of refuge has been granted to warships doesn't make it COMPULSORY for ALL nations to grant places of refuge to warships.

The purpose of highlighting the Australian regulation is that most nations like the Australians distinguish warships as a separate category. That IS a consistent stand of international law.
Doesn't discount the fact that China admitted that it denied entry just to make a political statement, and in so doing risked the safety of the minesweepers. That they were warships is, in this case, quite secondary.

"The right of a foreign ship to stop and anchor in cases of force majeure or distress is explicitly referred to by UNCLOS in the case of navigation in the territorial sea (Article 18(2)), straits used for international navigation (Article 39.1(c)) and in archipelagic waters (Article 54).

The right of a foreign ship to enter a port or internal waters of another State in situations of force majeure or distress is not regulated by UNCLOS, although this constitutes an internationally accepted practice, at least in order to preserve human life. This, however, does not preclude the adoption of rules or guidelines complementing the provisions of UNCLOS."
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I am continuing to play the Devil's advocate and reiterate some facts...

(i) ILS does not cover place of refuge.

I think I have made the point clear in the imo link. UNCLOS and ILS covers distress and force majeure but does not cover place of refuge....
Correct UNCLOS does not cover refuge and in fact the 'customery law' to enter port is only for ships in distress. Wher a ship is runing from weather it does not necessily hold under UNCLOS that a ship must be allowed to enter prot and articles 25, 211 and 255 of the convention allow states to set conditions on entry

(ii) US is not a signatory of UNCLOS

By that definition, China is under no obligation to provide UNCLOS coverage to non-participating vessels. Whilst the US is in voluntary compliance, there is no binding agreement compelling China to comply. Isn't it mischievious to argue otherwise.
.

Given there is not actual requiremnt under UNCLOS to permit such entry this comment is irrelevant. What a vessel may do is deviate from innocent passgae to seek shelter but that does not necesary mean the can enter port. As noted above this is not an UNCLOS concnept but cusomer one but it has been upheld by precedent with Creole (1953) and Rebecca A. Hoff (1929) (ref Law of the Sea 3rd edition - R.R Churchill and A.V. Lowe). In fact places of refuge are better covered by article ii of the Salvage convention 1989 which states:

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Italic]
“whenever regulating or deciding upon matters relating to salvage operations such as admittance to ports of vessels in distress or the provision of facilities to salvors, take into account the need for co-operation between salvors, other interested parties and public authorities in order to ensure the efficient and successful performance of salvage operations for the purpose of saving life or property in danger as well as preventing damage to the environment in general.”

However Warships are not covered by this convention. As an aside the US is a signatory to this convention as is Australia.​
[/FONT]
(iii) Customary law dictates...

I have yet to read any customary law that compels anyone to provide a place of refuge to warships. I'm not saying that countries can't volountarily provide place of refuge to warships. I'm saying that since everyone is claiming it is compulsory under customary law, it wouldn't and shouldn't be difficult to point out the relevant laws that cover warships isn't it, especially when international law normally designates warships as a special category....
.

I would be careful on this one as there is nothing saying customary law does not apply in this case. I would sugest that given the precedent should a warship or government vessel be in true distress and life was lost because entry was denied then it could be argued taht the state in question had breached customery obligations. It all chagnes if the flag state or port state are in conflict of course.

Just because I donate to the poor doesn't mean everyone is compelled to donate to the poor. Same principle applies.

Just because places of refuge has been granted to warships doesn't make it COMPULSORY for ALL nations to grant places of refuge to warships..
.

True but see above

The purpose of highlighting the Australian regulation is that most nations like the Australians distinguish warships as a separate category. That IS a consistent stand of international law...
.

Warships are exempt from the provisions of international conventions applying to commercial vessels and this has always been he case. It is not because they are a 'seperate category' but because their particular nature, legal status and role means they don't fit well into convetions aimed mainly at Sagety of Life at Sea (SOLAS) and environmetal protection (MARPOL) hence they are exempt. Mind you fishing boats and primative craft are also exempt and seperate category. It should be ntoed that warships are being bought into complince with these convetions to the greets extent possible on a voluntary basis.

In addition it should also be noted, contrary to your previous asertions, their flag state is liable for any damage they cause to a coastal under UNCLOS. The liability conventions adopted by IMO are in place mainly becuase the flag of most commerical vessels does not align witht the operator who has effective control of the vessel (which is not true of warships) hence measures are need to ensure a coastal state will be compensated when an incident occurs.

In respect ot the Iron Baron I have to say this is a very poor example and place of refuge is completely irrelevant. The crew were not in danger and the ship was aground. The vesel was diposed of under the Protection of the Sea (Powers of Intervention) Act 1984 because it posed a risk to the environment and could not safely be recover to port.

Similarly with the Castor this does not fit the distress situation as the crew were not in immediate danger. I do agree that refuge should have permitted sooner, however, the concern to the coastal states was taht the ship would break up in or near its ports with serious consequences. It should be noted that UNCLOS cerainly permits a coastal state to reject access under such circumstancee, howeve, much workm ahs been done as a result o this and the Prestige incident.

(iv) Providing place of refuge is not a compulsory action

My points in highlighting the various instances where places of refuge have not granted is merely to point out that there are circumstances where a nation can decide when not to grant a place of refuge. There are other numerous examples. Accordingly, the cries of foul play is inconsistent with the facts in this instance.

The irony is that if the US ratifies UNCLOS, at the least, it can invoke the force majeure article covering distress. Whilst a place of refuge may not be accorded, a distress ship can still avail to anchor in safe waters. In that sense, the US govt can be faulted themselves by not protecting their own vessels under international law. It is very much trying to have a cake and eat it. A very consistent stand of certain nations......
.

Since UNCLOS does not explicitly cover this, as it is customary law) this statement does not make sense. It is more relevant that both the US and China have ratifie the salvage convnetion that does explicitly cover this.

http://www.comitemaritime.org/year/pdfiles/places_refuges.pdf

In the case of the US, I would say that this provides some impetus to the senate to approve ratification. If I'm not wrong, the ratification process finally went to senate on 31 Oct 2007...
.

Many of the objections to UNCLOS do not revolve around the issues of distress but the interpration of national waters, EEZ's and the right of passage. I wouel suggest the US reluctance has more to do wiht this and in this regard I have some sympathy asn UNCLOS is quite a compromise.

Still, I would highlight again, that I do not approve of Chinese actions in relation to the minesweepers. I agree that lives should never be risked in those circumstances. I would have said the spirit of christmas should prevail. The only problem is assuming the chinese celebrate christmas...
I still think the isuse was political and should be viewed as such.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Where in UNCLOS is it stated that the articles stated therein is applicable only to fellow signatories of the UNCLOS?
That's law 101. In the preamble,

"The States Parties to this Convention,....

have agreed as follows...."

Agreements are only binding on signatories who have ratified the agreement. If state is not party to the agreement, there is no bind on them and non-participants cannot avail to the agreement. It is actually the same in any agreement. The definition of states parties is of course included in the agreement. The US has not ratified the agreement and therefore is not a party.

Same thing with the Kyoto protocol. That the US is not a signatory doesn't make the provisions of the protocol binding on the US.

Doesn't discount the fact that China admitted that it denied entry just to make a political statement, and in so doing risked the safety of the minesweepers. That they were warships is, in this case, quite secondary.

"The right of a foreign ship to stop and anchor in cases of force majeure or distress is explicitly referred to by UNCLOS in the case of navigation in the territorial sea (Article 18(2)), straits used for international navigation (Article 39.1(c)) and in archipelagic waters (Article 54).

The right of a foreign ship to enter a port or internal waters of another State in situations of force majeure or distress is not regulated by UNCLOS, although this constitutes an internationally accepted practice, at least in order to preserve human life. This, however, does not preclude the adoption of rules or guidelines complementing the provisions of UNCLOS."
Actually, that it is a warship is a necessary legal point. The restrictions that the Chinese have imposed is primarily on US warships to which customary law cannot apply.

That the UNCLOS cannot apply to US ships is a legal point. The US cannot avail itself to the provisions of UNCLOS in any international court as the US itself does not recognise the agreement ie non-party until ratification. There are no third party provisions in UNCLOS.

Alexsa, thanks for the clarification.

My point is purely a legal one. That the chinese is not obligated under international law to provide a port of refuge. That they should or should be from a moral or political standpoint is a separate issue.

Whilst the US is a signatory to the Convention on Salvage, I have my doubts on its applicability even if the vessels were not minesweepers/warships in the first place. It would be a stretch to argue that China, if a participant, would have acted as a salvor and I seriously doubt if the US would have accepted any claims by the chinese to that effect.

In any case, what is important is that the chinese are not a signatory to the convention on salvage (if not wrong, undergoing ratification) which would make any requirement on their part quite redundant.

I still don't see where China can be faulted from a legal perspective on the subject.
 
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merocaine

New Member
Any Port in a Storm

Perhaps the outraged of Tumbridge Wells should examine the following for precident.

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/lawjournal/issues/volume63/number5/murray.pdf

This involved the denial of two oil tankers in distress the right of shelter for policical and economic reasons, it also involved the very real chance of loss of crew.

Here is a summery of the Castors Fate

"Next, in December 2000, the Castor was navigating the Mediterranean Sea on its voyage from Constanza, Romania to Lagos,
Nigeria.[40] Castor, a Cyprus flagged tanker[41] built in 1977,[42] was carrying 29,500 tons of gasoline.[43] Encountering severe
winter weather, including a force-12 gale, the Castor developed a twenty-six meter crack across its main deck.[44]
Thus began Castor’s forty day, 1000 mile saga.[45] Nearly crippled by rough seas, the Castor sought sheltered waters in which
it could offload its cargo, for the safety of the ship, her crew, and nearby coastal states.[46] On New Year’s Eve, Morocco
denied Castor’s request.[47] Castor’s plea for shelter was subsequently denied by Algeria, France, Gibraltar, Greece, Italy,
Malta, Spain, and Tunisia.[48]
Spain allegedly feared that the grinding metal from the crack on the ship’s deck would create sparks that might cause the
ship’s cargo to ignite.[49] However, there is serious doubt that the Castor posed any risk of explosion.[50] In addition, Castor
was merely seeking sheltered waters, a place of protection from which to offload her cargo and effect minor repairs, so Castor
need not have entered a port facility.[51] Spanish search-and-rescue authorities evacuated many of the ship’s crew on the high
seas.[52]
Finally, after forty days as a homeless pariah, wandering the Mediterranean for 1000 miles, Castor’s gasoline cargo was
offloaded onto two shuttle tankers in a risky at-sea transfer operation in exposed waters off the coast of Malta.[53]
Malta’s
refusal to grant shelter to the Castor is perhaps ironic, given that Malta was the flag state of the Erika.[54]
Many of the coastal states involved in the incident decried the Castor as a substandard ship.[55] They argued that their citizens
should not be put at risk because of a substandard ship.[56] Yet there is a dispute over the facts as to this point. According to the
American Bureau of Shipping, the vessel’s classification society, the Castor was a properly maintained, seaworthy vessel that
simply incurred damage from heavy weather.[57] The fact that the Castor was able to remain afloat for forty days on the high
seas, despite the large crack in its deck, arguably supports this contention."

Dispite some posters contentions that this action is without precendent, it is clear that denial of port does happen.
This is not to condone the Chinese actions, but perhaps it would do to keep a bit of perspective, esp as the ships in question are military vessals.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Perhaps the outraged of Tumbridge Wells should examine the following for precident.
Why are you quoting the Castor when both I and Alexas have explained its relevance? I have laboriously pointed out that the spanish also provided recovery crews - the crews were able to be retrieved. Again, something that china did not provide.

You cannot quote the issue of a vesel that was already structurally distressed as compared to 2 seaworthy smaller vessels. Pointedly, 8 countries refused entry due to risk issues. Risk assessments are based on issues such as inspection and whats on the manifest - is anyone implying that 8 countries failed on basic due diligence as part of their own risk assessment?

Spain did not want to allow the vessel entry into her national limits for a number of reasons.

1) they did not want another biohazard on their coastline
2) they believed that deepwater dispersal was a safer way to manage the risk
3) they didn't have the facilities to contain the spill - hence point 2.
4) they misunderstood the EU rulings on the obligations of member states.

requoting a vessel incident out of context does not make it a valid argument just because you entusiastically persist in presenting it as a cassus belli for chinas actions.

chinas action was motivated on political petulance - no more, no less. No amount of sophistry can defend their response IMV

if anything the Castor points to the frailties of how multiple jurisdictions can circumvent their obligations by a failure of due process. China cannot in any shape fashion or form be afforded that luxury.

Political indolence and petulance is indefensible, using inapprop references doesn't support their behaviour at all, it makes me question your enthusiasm for cutting them some slack when its undeserved.

Again, there would be a hue and cry if a chinese vessel was refused port access under similar cirumstances.

I find it curious that there is this baskervillian attempt to defend their behaviour - and that generous efforts are made to justify their actions "under precedence" by using decidely context irrelevant examples.
 
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merocaine

New Member
Yes I do want to cut them some slack, I dont like to assume guilt on the basis of one side of the story, I'd rather wait for the Chinese explaination before jumping to conculsions.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=58061&archive=true

According to Admerial Roughead the minesweepers were not seeking shelter, but merely looking to refuel.
Perhaps there disress due to the storm was over blown by certain elements in the US Navy, for political reasons. Since the Chinese havent given there version of events it is less a case of cutting slack than not automaticly assumming guilt.

“The Kitty Hawk had been planning to go in there, and it was disruptive to many people’s plans,” Adm. Gary Roughead told Pentagon reporters.

Roughead said he was even more bothered by China’s decision last week to deny a request for two minesweepers based out of Sasebo, Japan, to refuel at Hong Kong.

The USS Patriot and Guardian ended up refueling while under way.

“As someone who’s been going to sea all my life, if there’s one tenet that we observe, it’s when someone’s in need, you provide, and you sort it out later,” Roughead said.

He said Chinese officials have yet to offer an explanation about why the Kitty Hawk and minesweepers were not allowed to dock at Hong Kong, but he looks forward to talking to his Chinese counterparts on the mater"

Interestingly enough he did'ent mention the storm.

The Castor is relevent in that it rebuts your earlier suggestion that denial of Harbour was unheard of...

Ignoring the fundamental tenets of the ILS is disturbing in itself. Where in the last 100 years had a similar act occurred in peacetime?
Which the answer is the Castor, a civilian vessel in mortal danger.

In any event I consider that statement overblown, they certainly ignored the spirt of the ILS, but the fundemental tenets? it is accutlly not clear if the Minesweepers were in any distress, or wheater they merely wanted to refuel in Hong Kong as it would be more convinent.

I feel this is being used as a political football, where the facts are thin on the ground people are automaticly making connections, where ignoring the spirit of the ILS, dodgy IP addresses, technology theft are being weaved into a tapestry of chinese duplisity, sometimes I feel as if I've stumbled into the pages of the Spectator.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The Castor is relevent in that it rebuts your earlier suggestion that denial of Harbour was unheard of...

Which the answer is the Castor, a civilian vessel in mortal danger.
You still want to use an example (Castor) that has no parallel relevance as their escape clause for their action?

To argue that its only tied to an issue of safe harbour is somewhat cute - the issue was denial of safe harbour to a request from a vessel that was not compromised but sought refuge.. Again, the issue with Castors refusal by eight countries was that the hull was believed to be at risk of integrity failure and that the effected countries had neither the capacity to contain a spill, or the ability to manage the event with an appropriate response. the desire to keep Castor in deep water was to mitigate the spill and avoid coastal contamination. I and others have tried to explain the complexity of the Castor example and yet you persist in dumbing it down to a base equation that bears little relevance to anything thats been contested here. There is no parallel or causal example between Castors predicament and the 2 smaller vessels.

You and I are obviously reading different reports.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, You obviously see china as being in an unimpeachable position whereas I certainly see them as compromising their moral compass and exercising their indignation through a vehicle of political petulance.

If the US did the same I would find their behaviour beneath contempt.

As for the Spectator comment, I've already had some halfwit chinese kids spam my email for denying my chinese heritage by not sticking up for Chinas actions. It's the age old reaction, slag off at me or my ancestors because I'm not "chinese enough". We should swap places if the only burden you have is the sense of being in a parallel universe where the philosophy of the Spectator rules supreme..... :D
 
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Schumacher

New Member
Yup, some are putting too much faith in the words of the USN with regard to the actual degree of distress, if any, of the 2 minesweepers. As it turned out, the minesweepers were fine.
Yes, it's all hindsight but when all we have is the words of 2 sides engaging in heated political maneuvers, ie no independent accounts, the best may be to refrain from commenting too much let alone making conclusions.
 

merocaine

New Member
As for the Spectator comment, I've already had some halfwit chinese kids spam my email for denying my chinese heritage by not sticking up for Chinas actions. It's the age old reaction, slag off at me or my ancestors because I'm not "chinese enough". We should swap places if the only burden you have is the sense of being in a parallel universe where the philosophy of the Spectator rules supreme.....
I'm not sure I understand you? I'm not accussing you of denying anything about your chinese heritage.
It was yours (and others) linkage of disparate events as being somehow typical of PRC behaviour, that was reminisent the Spectator and other alarmist journalism. This would be akin to highlighting rendition, wiretapping, and interment without trial as being typical of US behaviour in the international arena, rather than seeing them as abberant policy.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, You obviously see china as being in an unimpeachable position whereas I certainly see them as compromising their moral compass and exercising their indignation through a vehicle of political petulance.
This I agree with, apart from the bit where I see them being in a unimpeachable position, legally they have done nothing wrong, perhaps morally (if the Minesweepers were in any danger) they have erred.

Personally I dont think the Minesweepers were in any danger, if they were in real danger I believe the USN's reponce would have been stronger than

"
The minesweeper incident, "causes us a little more concern," Keating said. "[T]his is a kind of an unwritten law among seamen that if someone is in need, regardless of genus, phylum or species, you let them come in; you give them safe harbor. Jimmy Buffett has songs about it, for crying out loud."

Still, the Navy hasn't taken any action in response. In fact, Keating hadn't even spoken to anyone in the Chinese government and he was playing phone tag with the U.S. ambassador to China."

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/earlywarning/2007/11/sun_in_their_eyes_such_a_happy.html?nav=rss_blog

...jimmy buffett...

My personal view is they viewed the Minesweepers wanting to dock as a convinence thing for the Ships, they saw no iminent danger and said move along, no doubt with half an eye on the the congressional gold medal and
Pac-3.

If evidence comes out where the Chinese know the ships were in serious trouble and refused to allow shelter, well thats another thing altogether..

Chances are if the Kittyhawk had'ent been denied access nobody would have batted an eyelid.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
In any case, what is important is that the chinese are not a signatory to the convention on salvage (if not wrong, undergoing ratification) which would make any requirement on their part quite redundant.

I still don't see where China can be faulted from a legal perspective on the subject.
As a matter of clarification Hong Kong are a signatory to the salvage convention. (China proper is a seperate entity in this case).
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Which the answer is the Castor, a civilian vessel in mortal danger.

In any event I consider that statement overblown, they certainly ignored the spirt of the ILS, but the fundemental tenets? it is accutlly not clear if the Minesweepers were in any distress, or wheater they merely wanted to refuel in Hong Kong as it would be more convinent.
.
MV Castro was a pollution prevention isuse not a distress issue noting that assistance was being provided tothe vessel all through the unfortuate saga. They did not ignore the spirit of UNCLOS in this case as the convention allow the coastal state to deny entry and also has words to the effect taht someone elese problem should not be transferred. This is covered in articles 194, 195, 199, 211, 221 and 225.

Tis incident, and the subsequent MV Prestige sinking, highlighted issues with places of refuge (subtle difference with port of refuge) internationally and IMO has done considerable work to resolve this issue. This is not a specific US or China problem but a problem internationally. The IMO website has a good rundown on this at:

http://www.imo.org/Safety/mainframe.asp?topic_id=746

In particualr I draw your attendtion to the quote:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The right of a foreign ship to enter a port or internal waters of another State in situations of force majeure or distress is not regulated by UNCLOS, although this constitutes an internationally accepted practice, at least in order to preserve human life. This, however, does not preclude the adoption of rules or guidelines complementing the provisions of UNCLOS.[/FONT]
[/FONT]
 
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