The Kitty Hawk Port Snub

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funtz

New Member
There seems to be some fairly juvenille attitudes out there about this subject. You need to look at this from the Chinese point of view if you really are interested in understanding what this happened. As a westerner living in China I offer the following points.

1/ The number one policy preoccupation in China is the "reunification" of China. i.e. the bringing of Taiwan in the fold. Any action that works against this is going to have a big reaction. They consider selling weapon systems supplying a seperatist movement. (Much like the Dalai Lama fuss.)

2/ They point to the USA's attempts to usurp Canadian ownership of the North West Passage as a similiar example where the US is intefering with a soverign country to change the status quo for it's own ends.

3/ I spend a lot of time in the airspace between Hong Kong and Taiwan. Almost every flight I do has US military aircraft hovering around the airspace in the Taiwan Strait. Both Control centres constantly are calling on 121.5 warning these aircraft away from civilian airways. Given this, the Hainan Island incident and numerous other unknown examples of US snooping, little wonder the Chinese are pissed off. Imagine the reaction if Chinese military aircraft spending all day everyday withing 50 miles of JFK Airport.

4/ The Chinese see themselves as the up and coming superpower and will not be pushed around, just like the US feels. The have had a terribly exploited and violent history in the last 100 years, much of it due to foreign influence, and they do not want any more destabilising inteference in their internal affairs. (Obviously they consider Taiwan and the Strait internal).

5/ It is clear they are trying to send a message to the US. "This is our part of the world and you are here as our guests. Don't interfere with our internal affairs".

They know the US has become fatally weak in the last 7 years and they are taking advantage of it. It's hardly suprising and it's easy to understand their motives if you look at things from their point of view for a moment.
Well although this might be on the political lines, it is very much a part of this topic, every one in the region knows how serious they are about the Taiwan issue, and the Tibet issue, and for that matter even other border issues with neighbors, and diplomatic moves centered on these things are nothing new, or surprising especially in the region surrounding China. Some response to the recent issues between USA and China should have been expected.

Your comments about the experience in the airspace around Taiwan Strait are very relevant.

Weather one accepts it or not China and the USA do not see eye to eye on a host of issues and their will be clear disagreements in the future which will result in these situations becoming more and more common, as you said China is going towards a more active role in this world.

Addressing Australia as Austria in front of Australians, now that is a mistake, this however is clearly some sort of a response to the recent events.
 

Investigator

New Member
After a few decades New Zealand still hasn't got the news. If China wants to follow New Zealand's example, its fine with me. The United States can ignore China just as easily.
How does NZ come into a thread about a decision of China to exclude the US Navy from Hong Kong on Thanksgiving? To which the Chinese have said it is a misunderstanding.

China is nuclear armed and powered and is a possible threat to the lives of the US. It is also not allowed to send nuclear armed and powered vessels to NZ (but has sent conventionally powered and armed vessels here - unlike the US). NZ is "mostly harmless" (apologies to the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy).

NZ has "gotten" the news. It means nothing to deny "nuclear" ships from our ports- aside from $100m in lost sales of the Skyhawks and Aermacchis. Everything else keeps rolling along - trade etc.

How do you, Sea Toby (who seemed so reasonable on other posts - including on the World Affairs Board), see China being damaged by this action? By being "ignored" as easily as NZ has been.

Will the US stop having a trade deficit with China? Will they stop having access to US intelligence (other than that they may covertly acquire)? Will future ship visits be cancelled (and would that hurt China any more than the negligible hurt NZ tourism has suffered from the lack of few hundred randy sailors visiting the red light districts every few years)?
 
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weasel1962

New Member
Re:

What I can't understand is how misunderstanding one day and then not the next can be construed as a deliberate message. :confused:

Austria/Australia :D Same guy who suggested the queen is over 200 years old :shudder

Restricting port calls isn't going to change US policy over arms sales to Taiwan nor its treatment of the DL. Doesn't this make it look rather petty?
 

merocaine

New Member
Otherwise the only other incident I can think of is the intervention in the Balkens, Given this was to stop an ongoing genocide I have some problems with the suggestion that it was and invasions as the other option was to allow the killing to continue
ongoing genocide? surely your mistaken? Now that is an incredibly inflammatry statement....

How does NZ come into a thread about a decision of China to exclude the US Navy from Hong Kong on Thanksgiving? To which the Chinese have said it is a misunderstanding.

You really have to be waiting for an opportunity to attack New Zealanders to bring up the parallel.
Was going to call him on that, its not the first time he's banged on about the evil New Zealanders:D
 

funtz

New Member
What I can't understand is how misunderstanding one day and then not the next can be construed as a deliberate message. :confused:

Austria/Australia :D Same guy who suggested the queen is over 200 years old :shudder

Restricting port calls isn't going to change US policy over arms sales to Taiwan nor its treatment of the DL. Doesn't this make it look rather petty?
It is however a way to send a message

From what i gather this specific way to protest has no precedence in history, is this True?
 

chunga1

New Member
pay back time:eek:nfloorl:

Japan refusal adds to US-China carrier spat
By Demetri Sevastopulo in Washington and Mure Dickie in Beijing

Published: November 29 2007 23:22 | Last updated: November 30 2007 04:19

Japan has refused a Chinese request to tour an advanced combat ship as the US-China spat over Beijing’s refusal to allow a US aircraft carrier to dock in Hong Kong last week spilled over into Sino-Japanese military relations.

A person familiar with the Japanese decision said that the Pentagon said the move would not be appropriate given China’s decision last week to deny the USS Kitty Hawk permission to dock in Hong Kong over Thanksgiving.

the move marred the historic visit this week of a Chinese missile destroyer to Japan, the first by a Chinese naval ship since the second world war. China had requested that the sailors on the Shenzhen be allowed to tour an Aegis-class destroyer, but the Pentagon opposed the move.

He added that the US was also concerned about the leaking of sensitive information. The Pentagon was concerned given the previous unauthorised removal of a computer disk from an Aegis destroyer that hurt otherwise strong US-Japanese military relations.

The White House on Thursday asked China to clarify statements that the move to block the Kitty Hawk from entering Hong Kong was not a misunderstanding.

The White House said on Wednesday that Yang Jiechi, China’s foreign minister, had told Mr Bush on a visit that the Kitty Hawk decision was the result of a “misunderstanding”. However, Liu Jianchao, a Chinese foreign ministry spokesman, on Thursday denied the US account, saying it “did not accord with the facts”.

Beijing’s decision to block the Kitty Hawk visit and earlier barring of two US destroyers from taking refuge in Hong Kong from a storm has angered the US navy and threatened the recent warming in cross-Pacific military ties.

Mr Liu declined to give a clear account of why the Kitty Hawk had been denied permission to enter Hong Kong for what would have been a routine festival port visit. Beijing reversed the decision after it was made public, but the carrier had already sailed for its home port in Japan.

Mr Liu appeared to suggest the decision had been intended as a diplomatic signal. While Sino-US ties were generally progressing well, Beijing was unhappy about the US president’s recent meeting with the Dalai Lama, Tibet’s spiritual leader, and about Washington’s decision to sell weapons to Taiwan, he said.

His comments were made after a Communist party newspaper quoted an unnamed senior naval officer in the People’s Liberation Army as saying the refusal was prompted by the US’s sale of weapons to Taiwan, including an upgrade to the Patriot anti-missile defence system.

“This all happened because the US first seriously harmed Chinese interests and Sino-US ties,” said the Global Times, which is a populist tabloid arm of the ruling party’s People’s Daily newspaper.

Ms Perino said Mr Yang had told Mr Bush that the “misunderstanding” was caused by poor communication and he had never suggested that China was responding to the Dalai Lama’s visit or the Taiwan arms sales announcement.

But if the refusal was meant to send a message, Beijing is unlikely to be pleased by the way it has been read in Washington. Some observers there have raised questions about China’s chain of command.

A senior US official said on Wednesday that the Chinese foreign ministry appeared to have been caught “flat-footed” by the original decision on the Kitty Hawk’s visit. He added that the quick reversal meant Hu Jintao, China’s president, had not approved it in advance.

However, Dennis Blair, a retired admiral and the former head of US Pacific Command, said the rapid U-turn might show that the original decision in Beijing was closely contested, and that officials decided to reverse the move after the level of US anger became apparent.

Several experts said China might have miscalculated the significance of the Thanksgiving holiday for the sailors and their families.

On Wednesday the Pentagon summoned General Zhao Ning, the Chinese defence attaché in Washington, to a hear a formal protest. But Mr Liu told a routine press conference in Beijing that China had not received any official remonstration.

On Thursday, the Pentagon attempted to tone down the dispute, which had threatened to develop into a bigger spat. Bryan Whitman, Pentagon spokesman, said that while ”this was an unfortunate incident...we’re going to move past it”.

Opacity in Chinese military action is not new. Early this year the PLA took the world – and Chinese diplomats – by surprise by successfully testing an anti-satellite weapon. Beijing has yet to explain the thinking behind the test.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/c93f897a-...86-11da-89df-0000779e2340.html?nclick_check=1
 

chunga1

New Member
and now we have this

Navy Reveals a Third Snub by Chinese
Associated Press | November 30, 2007
WASHINGTON - The Chinese rejection of U.S. ship visits into Hong Kong is broader than initially reported, the Pentagon said Friday, revealing for the first time that a third incident had occurred last week.

According to a defense official, a request for the USS Reuben James, a Navy frigate, to make a New Year's holiday stop in Hong Kong was formally denied by the Chinese last Thursday. The denial came the same day the Chinese turned away the USS Kitty Hawk and five ships accompanying it for a Thanksgiving port call.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the denial has not been publicly announced, said the Reuben James, based in Pearl Harbor, had made the port visit request in October.

According to the official, shortly after the Kitty Hawk was turned away, the Chinese reversed their decision and said the ship could enter the harbor, but by then the ship was too far out to sea. During that notification, the Chinese also told the Navy that the Reuben James visit was being denied. No reason was given for the refusal.

The official said the denial was both over the phone and in writing, and added that there are no other pending requests for US ship visits to the Hong Kong harbor.

Until now, the Navy has considered Hong Kong one of the sailors' favorite post of call, with about 50 ship visits per year.

In addition to the Kitty Hawk and the Reuben James, the Chinese also refused to let two Navy minesweepers enter Hong Kong harbor to escape an approaching storm and receive fuel - an incident Navy officials said it found far more disturbing since it violates an international rule of the sea to provide safe harbor for vessels in trouble.

The minesweepers, the Patriot and the Guardian, were instead refueled at sea and returned safely to their home port in Japan.

Prior to the latest three incidents, the most recent port visit denial came in 2004.

China has hinted that Congress' honoring of the Dalai Lama and U.S. arms sales to Taiwan triggered the problems, which have cast a new shadow over military relations between the two countries.

The Pentagon summoned a Chinese military attache to protest the decision, which the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, Adm. Mike Mullen, called "perplexing." President Bush raised the issue with Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi during their talks on North Korea, Iran and other issues.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,157306,00.html
 

t68

Well-Known Member
Addressing Australia as Austria in front of Australians, now that is a mistake, this however is clearly some sort of a response to the recent events.
WOW did that get air play around the world ?

I would not think it is newsworthy (maybe to the chaser war on everthing)

REGARDS
TOM
 

chunga1

New Member
and more spin

The Inside Story of China's Barring of an U.S. Aircraft Carrier
By Li Tianxiao
The Epoch Times Dec 01, 2007


On Thanksgiving, a visit to Hong Kong by the aircraft carrier U.S. Kitty Hawk was suddenly rejected by the Chinese Communist regime, causing many complaints. (AFP/Getty Images)


During the Thanksgiving Holiday season, the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) suddenly canceled a long planned visit by the US aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk to Hong Kong. Although the CCP changed its opinion by "considering humanitarianism," the Kitty Hawk had already left and has no intention of returning. The CCP's fast changing policies have left experts from different fields confused.

It is not easy to understand the syndicate type behavior of the CCP. There is a Chinese saying, "The diplomats shall not be harmed even when the countries are at war with each other." China and the U.S. Secretary of Defense have already agreed on a series of agreements that include establishing military hotlines. According to the CCP's propaganda, its relationship with the U.S. is at the stage of "building constructive ideals and cooperation." However, without any explanation, the CCP barred 8,000 marine officers and crew from entering the docks to meet their waiting relatives. As a result, Hong Kong lost nearly 100 million dollars of consumption on tourism. The hotels wasted thousands of pounds of turkey meat and lettuce. Since the CCP's "humanitarianism" doesn't allow American soldiers to spend money, please allow Zeng Yinquan, the Chief Executive of Hong Kong to send the bill to the CCP's Minister of Finance.

The Kitty Hawk case once again proves the vulnerability of the China-U.S. relationship. The China-U.S. relationship has had its ups and downs and many times has sunk into a crisis. The Tiananmen Massacre in 1989, Taiwanese president Li Denghui's visit to the U.S. in 1995, the Belgrade Explosion at the Chinese embassy in 1999, the China-U.S. aircraft collision in 2001, and in 2005 Chinese general Zhu Chenghu's statement about starting a war with U.S. have all brought China-U.S. relationship to the lowest point. Although the two countries complement each other economically, the fundamental conflicts exist in their values, political systems, human rights policies, military protocol and others that have added difficulty to negotiations. After the aircraft collision happened in 2001, for a time the CCP refused to allow U.S. submarines to enter Hong Kong. The barring of the Kitty Hawk is related to the U.S. sale of an upgrade to Taiwan's missile defense system on November 13.

The CCP's choice to bar the Kitty Hawk is also in the spirit of vindictiveness. The CCP doesn't have any aircraft carriers and the Kitty Hawk has a well-known reputation. It not only assisted military strikes on Afghanistan but also entered Taiwan prior to its election in 1994 to stop the CCP's rash act. Since 1998, the Kitty Hawk has been acting as a flagship in the Taiwan straits crisis which left a sour taste in the CCP's mouth. The CCP once followed the Kitty Hawk using a submarine. Now this feeble attempt to humiliate the Kitty Hawk was simply an effort to balance its backward state of naval supremacy.

Fundamentally, the Kitty Hawk case demonstrates how there have been violent internal struggles since the CCP's 17th National Congress. This case was caused by Zeng Qinghong and has become a headache for Xi Jinping. It's also a tactic to humiliate Hu Jintao and Wen Jiabao.

Hu Jintao is the head of the CCP's Leading Group for Taiwan Affairs but not the leader of the Hong Kong and Macaw coordination team. Of course Hu won't become involved with the Kitty Hawk case at the beginning. Zeng Qinghong acting in spite of the U.S. for selling Taiwan the missile upgrading system was most likely case for asking Xi to reject the Kitty Hawk's docking in Hong Kong. As Xi used to rely on Zeng, he had to accept the order. In the end, Hu and Wen interfered with the incident, but the Kitty Hawk had already left.

The Kitty Hawk case continues to cloud the relationship between the U.S. and China and fosters suspicion among Hong Kong's people about Xi's problem solving ability. Furthermore, it makes Hu's idea of a "harmonious world" look absurd.

http://en.epochtimes.com/news/7-12-1/62497.html
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I have to agree that 'face' is an important issue with respect ot dealing wiht China and some actions we would deem as minor would be seen as confrontational and would demand a response. This does not support the behaviour we just need to be aware it should not be judged by our standards.

I am a little concerned about the Chinese actions but do not see this as the start of a realtionship freefall with the US (I hope). Given China is still a net exporter and quite a bit of her industry (particularly private sector) is geared to export sales then keeping access to these markets is critical to ther financial health. This is particualry true if the suggestiosn that the chinese banking sector is in deep trouble are true.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,19067992-36375,00.html

The above report appeared in the Australian in May 2006 despite the fact in 2004 it had been suggested that the issue was in hand (at that stage it was estimted it would cost 656 billion USD to resolve the bad debt crisis).

http://w4.stern.nyu.edu/glucksman/docs/Xu_2005.pdf

However, it would appear the situation may still be quite bad, and perhaps worse. I have a college who claims things are actaully much worse but as this is simply heresay I won't use his figures. If he is correct then the rapid China growth could slow down dramaticalaly within the next five years.

On this basis, while china has aspirations and demands to be treated with due regard i don't think they would risk a major rupture. However, I could be quite wrong.
 

contedicavour

New Member
One dimension that is may be missing in the above posts is that some politicians (local or national) may have decided to make a small show of force by denying harbour entry to USN ships to strengthen their positions inside the Chinese communist party. The organisation is less a monolith that one would think.
There will soon be new elections in HK, with the Beijing-supported candidate (a former high ranking HK administration official) level with the Democrat-supported candidate (another former high ranking official). May be the scene of thousands of USN sailors in HK rattled some and the decision was taken to stop all USN ships from coming in harbour ?? :confused:
Anyway next time the USN ships will visit the Philippines or Singapore :rolleyes: , ie a shame for the HK economy (missing revenues in hotels, restaurants, etc).

cheers
 

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
One dimension that is may be missing in the above posts is that some politicians (local or national) may have decided to make a small show of force by denying harbour entry to USN ships to strengthen their positions inside the Chinese communist party.
conte, do you even know how HK works? The decision would not have been made by any local politician, because the Communist Party does not rule HK at the local level. The decision would have been made in Beijing, and I doubt very much it was just a few "rogue" individuals.

Besides, even if it had been done just to get up the greasy pole that goes to show the rest of the government would agree with the action.

There will soon be new elections in HK, with the Beijing-supported candidate (a former high ranking HK administration official) level with the Democrat-supported candidate (another former high ranking official). May be the scene of thousands of USN sailors in HK rattled some and the decision was taken to stop all USN ships from coming in harbour ??
You've got it around the wrong way. China turning away a USN goodwill visit would make HongKong voters think that Beijing is small-minded and backward. Allowing foreign naval visits shows relaxation, self-confidence and an open mentality.

You look like you're indulging in a little wishful thinking. This was a decision taken or at least backed by the government. Yes, it was a petty and foolish thing to do, but that's how the PRC government sometimes - you should know that by now. Sometimes it has everything in common with a spoilt child, who throws a temper-tantrum and when another child tries to calm it down lashes out with its fists and throws chairs around the classroom - or throws itself to the floor and starts rolling around wailing until it gets its way.

Maybe China will backtrack, but until it does that don't assume it was just a "misunderstanding". Indeed, the fact China rejected that suggestion by the US in an attempt to calm things down was a real slap in the face and a sign China is serious.
 

Gripenator

Banned Member
There seems to be some fairly juvenille attitudes out there about this subject. You need to look at this from the Chinese point of view if you really are interested in understanding what this happened. As a westerner living in China I offer the following points.

1/ The number one policy preoccupation in China is the "reunification" of China. i.e. the bringing of Taiwan in the fold. Any action that works against this is going to have a big reaction. They consider selling weapon systems supplying a seperatist movement. (Much like the Dalai Lama fuss.)

2/ They point to the USA's attempts to usurp Canadian ownership of the North West Passage as a similiar example where the US is intefering with a soverign country to change the status quo for it's own ends.

3/ I spend a lot of time in the airspace between Hong Kong and Taiwan. Almost every flight I do has US military aircraft hovering around the airspace in the Taiwan Strait. Both Control centres constantly are calling on 121.5 warning these aircraft away from civilian airways. Given this, the Hainan Island incident and numerous other unknown examples of US snooping, little wonder the Chinese are pissed off. Imagine the reaction if Chinese military aircraft spending all day everyday withing 50 miles of JFK Airport.

4/ The Chinese see themselves as the up and coming superpower and will not be pushed around, just like the US feels. The have had a terribly exploited and violent history in the last 100 years, much of it due to foreign influence, and they do not want any more destabilising inteference in their internal affairs. (Obviously they consider Taiwan and the Strait internal).

5/ It is clear they are trying to send a message to the US. "This is our part of the world and you are here as our guests. Don't interfere with our internal affairs".

They know the US has become fatally weak in the last 7 years and they are taking advantage of it. It's hardly suprising and it's easy to understand their motives if you look at things from their point of view for a moment.
A correction here, as another keen PRC watcher I would look at this infantile situation in the political context of the current state of Sino-American relations, especially the honoring of the Dalai Lama and the upgrading of the 3PAC-IIs in the ROCA inventory. Every defense professional and spook knows that the Patriot upgrade won't make ANY difference in the balance of power across the Taiwan Strait-this upgrade is entirely qualititative, not quantitative-which the Taiwan desperately needs to counter a fraction (c.17%) of the M-9/M-11 SRBMs headed their way in any outbreak of conflict although according to that fool Lee Teng Hui some of the missiles may have "dummy" warheads, which subsequently cost the lives of some high ranking MIB moles in the PLA. The issue here is a symbolic rejection/sign of displeasure of US foreign policy, I explicitly disagree with you on the issue of the "fatal weakness" of the US for the reason that the majority of my profession agree that the PLA/AF/N simply lack the necessary experience and material needed to carry out any large scale amphibious operation outside mainland China's borders-not to mention Taiwan or a CVBG intervention.

Analysis aside-personal opinion here, what is extremely disturbing here is the barring of the two minesweepers from Hong Kong caught in a storm, a severe and unjustified breach of international maritime law-unless the CCP/Politburo would like the same treatment extended to their own ships, they should cease mixing their own political agenda with international law. In future we can expect more of the same from the PRC, the Politburo that controls the mainland is supremely arrogant and believes in the old "Mandate of Heaven" right to indulge in any sort of behavior within their own borders in the name of "internal affairs" like the Chinese emperors of old- a rather unfortunate trait inheirited by their businessmen compatriots who seem to believe that theft of technology is legitimate so long as it "benefits China" (read: themselves) without taking into account the rights of others. Suprisingly, my advice to Western businessmen to invest their capital elsewhere such as Vietnam and the Phillipines to avoid technology bleed was well recieved last year compared to the reception I got four years ago. The US (and the West) in this situation or any others dealing with the PRC should stand firm and firmly outline their principles and in this situation possibly retaliate-I’ve found that most of all the Chinese respect a show of strength from foreigners instead of empty kowtowing like the sort of behaviour from the West today.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Analysis aside-personal opinion here, what is extremely disturbing here is the barring of the two minesweepers from Hong Kong caught in a storm, a severe and unjustified breach of international maritime law-unless the CCP/Politburo would like the same treatment extended to their own ships, they should cease mixing their own political agenda with international law. In future we can expect more of the same from the PRC, the Politburo that controls the mainland is supremely arrogant and believes in the old "Mandate of Heaven" right to indulge in any sort of behavior within their own borders in the name of "internal affairs" like the Chinese emperors of old- a rather unfortunate trait inheirited by their businessmen compatriots who seem to believe that theft of technology is legitimate so long as it "benefits China" (read: themselves) without taking into account the rights of others. Suprisingly, my advice to Western businessmen to invest their capital elsewhere such as Vietnam and the Phillipines to avoid technology bleed was well recieved last year compared to the reception I got four years ago. The US (and the West) in this situation or any others dealing with the PRC should stand firm and firmly outline their principles and in this situation possibly retaliate-I’ve found that most of all the Chinese respect a show of strength from foreigners instead of empty kowtowing like the sort of behaviour from the West today.

As someone who's gene pool covers both china and the west, I wholeheartedly concur. IMO you're one of the few people who've actually articulated it correctly.

I'd also point out that the Chinese reaction re the US and the Dalai Lama is selective. China has not made or expressed any displeasure with both Germany and Australia even though they tried to discourage a meeting.

Ultimately, Chinese respect strength of will and intent. Whether the west likes it or not, they have fallen over with almost indecent haste to trade with China, and discovered intermittently along the way that the issues of Corporate Governance in place that would normally provide them with some degree of protection does not even remotely exist. The arrogance of abandoning any pretext of honoring issues such as IP protection has now manifested itself into abandoning basic tenets of IML in allowing vessels in inclement weather to seek shelter. HK is not an exclusive military port, so no excuse exists to deny entry on the basis of military sensitivity etc...

Its not one of the smartest things the CCP has done, and all its done is seek to reinforce a perception of selective shifting sands.

I don't know how many wake up calls are needed on this, but one would think that Adm Keating has finally worked out that low level diplomacy was a waste of time.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Analysis aside-personal opinion here, what is extremely disturbing here is the barring of the two minesweepers from Hong Kong caught in a storm, a severe and unjustified breach of international maritime law
Actually, don't want to defend the chinese here but I think the above is actually incorrect factually.

http://www.imo.org/Safety/mainframe.asp?topic_id=746

I would highlight some quotes from the above IMO guidelines:
"Therefore, granting access to a place of refuge could involve a political decision which can only be taken on a case-by-case basis."

"International law recognizes the right of States to regulate entry into their ports (UNCLOS, Article 2, refers to the sovereignty of a coastal State over its land territory, internal waters, archipelagic waters and the territorial sea).

The right of a foreign ship to stop and anchor in cases of force majeure or distress is explicitly referred to by UNCLOS in the case of navigation in the territorial sea (Article 18(2)), straits used for international navigation (Article 39.1(c)) and in archipelagic waters (Article 54).

The right of a foreign ship to enter a port or internal waters of another State in situations of force majeure or distress is not regulated by UNCLOS, although this constitutes an internationally accepted practice, at least in order to preserve human life. This, however, does not preclude the adoption of rules or guidelines complementing the provisions of UNCLOS."

The above shouldn't be read as any comment of mine on the morality of the Chinese. Nevertheless, like I said, demonisation of the Chinese is an inevitable consequence as well.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The above shouldn't be read as any comment of mine on the morality of the Chinese. Nevertheless, like I said, demonisation of the Chinese is an inevitable consequence as well.
However there is no precedent in an environment where there are no overt hostilities. This isn't panama 1938.

What it does do now is provide a new precedent for every one else to abandon principle.

Exercising national privilege in such circumstances is decidely not a community action - and that course of action does not go unremembered.

I'd beg to differ on what issues of pursuit would be available if any of those vessels had sunk and lost crewmen. Certainly common law pursuit on issues of due diligence would be exercised by family members.

Either way, I don't think they've realised the ramifications of their actions here. Denying port entry in inclement weather will not be taken lightly.
 

Gripenator

Banned Member
Actually, don't want to defend the chinese here but I think the above is actually incorrect factually.

http://www.imo.org/Safety/mainframe.asp?topic_id=746

I would highlight some quotes from the above IMO guidelines:
"Therefore, granting access to a place of refuge could involve a political decision which can only be taken on a case-by-case basis."

"International law recognizes the right of States to regulate entry into their ports (UNCLOS, Article 2, refers to the sovereignty of a coastal State over its land territory, internal waters, archipelagic waters and the territorial sea).

The right of a foreign ship to stop and anchor in cases of force majeure or distress is explicitly referred to by UNCLOS in the case of navigation in the territorial sea (Article 18(2)), straits used for international navigation (Article 39.1(c)) and in archipelagic waters (Article 54).

The right of a foreign ship to enter a port or internal waters of another State in situations of force majeure or distress is not regulated by UNCLOS, although this constitutes an internationally accepted practice, at least in order to preserve human life. This, however, does not preclude the adoption of rules or guidelines complementing the provisions of UNCLOS."

The above shouldn't be read as any comment of mine on the morality of the Chinese. Nevertheless, like I said, demonisation of the Chinese is an inevitable consequence as well.
I was referring to International Customary Maritime Law, which simply is the unwritten code of laws governing seafaring countries-in place for several centuries before the advent of the IMO. Really, it is a set of "manners" for the Sea and the PRC, not ALL Chinese, has decided it doesn't need to abide by them in the name of crude political expediency.
 

Schumacher

New Member
...... China turning away a USN goodwill visit would make HongKong voters think that Beijing is small-minded and backward. ....
lol, so you're representing the HK voters now ? I hope you're going to present something to back up this claim or is it just another wishful thinking of yours ?

You look like you're indulging in a little wishful thinking. This was a decision taken or at least backed by the government. Yes, it was a petty and foolish thing to do, but that's how the PRC government sometimes - you should know that by now. Sometimes it has everything in common with a spoilt child, who throws a temper-tantrum and when another child tries to calm it down lashes out with its fists and throws chairs around the classroom - or throws itself to the floor and starts rolling around wailing until it gets its way........
Very colourful description indeed. Mr Musashi actually calling others acting like a small child. :)
 
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