The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[Systems Adict]

Thought I'd post this link from BAE, WRT more details about the ship/class, things that have happened & others that have yet to happen, including stage 2 of Daring's sea trials...


http://www.baesystems.com/ProductsServices/bae_product_type45.html


If all goes to plan then Dauntless will follow on a year or so later, followed by Diamond, Duncan, Dragon & lastly Defender, who'll enter service in 2014.


Systems Adict

 

[riksavage]

The following RN site contains news of the recent launch and a video tour of Daring post sea trials. Alas the tour is 'light' on information and appears more like a recruitment film, but worth a look.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.6567

 

[harryriedl]

Thought I'd post this link from BAE, WRT more details about the ship/class, things that have happened & others that have yet to happen, including stage 2 of Daring's sea trials...


http://www.baesystems.com/ProductsServices/bae_product_type45.html


If all goes to plan then Dauntless will follow on a year or so later, followed by Diamond, Duncan, Dragon & lastly Defender, who'll enter service in 2014.


Systems Adict

any idea wether Daring will be homeported I thought they might be homeported in Portsmoth[as thats where the T42 are's] but i haven't got anything definative.

 

[Super Nimrod]

More worrying reading - Leaked official report in the Sunday Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...FF4AVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2007/12/02/navy102.xml


:nutkick

 

[spsun100001]

More worrying reading - Leaked official report in the Sunday Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/mai...FF4AVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2007/12/02/navy102.xml


:nutkick

Thanks for the link. Once they've got around to reducing the number of Astute's to 6, not ordering the 7th and 8th Type 45's, not buying sufficinet F35's to poperly equip the CV's and putting a second rate rotary AEW platform on them then we'll really be motoring.

In terms of destroying the capability of the Navy I think Gordon will soon prove that we ain't seen nothing yet.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Once they've got around to reducing the number of Astute's to 6

They can't - they need a steady programme to keep the know-how for the future SSBNs. That means a total of 7 if not 8.

As to the article, I'm not surprised if that is the case because the Royal Navy is in a lull "between capabilities" - e.g. D-class and QE-class carriers delayed. That doesn't mean it won't have a bright future once they're in service.

In regards to more cuts from the current fleet, I'll believe them when I see them. According to the Telegraph by now we should have been left with 4 frigates, 2 destroyers, 1 submarine and a stripped-down carrier. nfloorl:

Also, as usual, the Telegraph ignores some very simple facts. Why did we have lots of ships patrolling UK waters in 1987? Something called the Cold War. And, no, we're not seeing a return to that - Putin's being what is known as a "git" not a warmongerer.

 

[spsun100001]

They can't - they need a steady programme to keep the know-how for the future SSBNs. That means a total of 7 if not 8.

As to the article, I'm not surprised if that is the case because the Royal Navy is in a lull "between capabilities" - e.g. D-class and QE-class carriers delayed. That doesn't mean it won't have a bright future once they're in service.

In regards to more cuts from the current fleet, I'll believe them when I see them. According to the Telegraph by now we should have been left with 4 frigates, 2 destroyers, 1 submarine and a stripped-down carrier. nfloorl:

Also, as usual, the Telegraph ignores some very simple facts. Why did we have lots of ships patrolling UK waters in 1987? Something called the Cold War. And, no, we're not seeing a return to that - Putin's being what is known as a "git" not a warmongerer.

I understand your points but the withdrawal of the Sea Harrier, reduction of the SSN force from 10 to 8, sale of 3 Type 23 frigates, retirement in HMS Invincible, reduction of the Type 45 from 12 to 8 and then to 6 with the potential for 2 more all started out as rumours and all came true.

 

[Galrahn]

I understand your points but the withdrawal of the Sea Harrier, reduction of the SSN force from 10 to 8, sale of 3 Type 23 frigates, retirement in HMS Invincible, reduction of the Type 45 from 12 to 8 and then to 6 with the potential for 2 more all started out as rumours and all came true.

There is no point reasoning with Musashi_kenshin, he has been downplaying any bad news for the Royal Navy for as long as I can remember.

Does anyone honestly believe there will be 8 Type 45s? I don't see how, unless something changes politically I don't see more than 6 being built.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I understand your points but the withdrawal of the Sea Harrier... all started out as rumours and all came true.

Were they the only rumours? I remember lots more, such as only one aircraft carrier being ordered/the entire project being scrapped, Dragon and Defender being sold back to BAE as hulls for the Saudi Royal Navy, Duncan being cancelled, various amphibious warfare ships being sold/scrapped, etc. Have any of those come true?

Papers like the Telegraph are often fed worst-case scenarios by individuals and then printed. So of course sometimes they will be right - other times they're wrong.

There is no point reasoning with Musashi_kenshin, he has been downplaying any bad news for the Royal Navy for as long as I can remember.

Actually, it's you that there's no reasoning with - I think Private Frazer from Dad's Army had a more positive outlook on life than you do.

I am not just open to the possibility of cuts, I know that existing frigates will be sold or decommisioned & scrapped - the question is when, which I honestly don't know. So I will wait until I see it happen, rather than assume a worst-case scenario at this moment. That applies to how I generally see things that the media reports, not just news of defence cuts.

 

[Galrahn]

Papers like the Telegraph are often fed worst-case scenarios by individuals and then printed. So of course sometimes they will be right - other times they're wrong.

Review every time you respond to a news article that doesn't have positive news about the Royal Navy in this thread. You attack the messenger, and downplay the message.

I highlight the facts, statistics, trends, and lay out historical graphs. Your response to me has repeated your response to the media articles, you attack the messenger.

You guys need a major surface combatant building program soon, because 20 surface combatants isn't enough to protect these HVU amphibious ships and carriers your nation is buying.

 

[Systems Adict]

The following RN site contains news of the recent launch and a video tour of Daring post sea trials. Alas the tour is 'light' on information and appears more like a recruitment film, but worth a look.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/server/show/nav.6567

It's not bad for a film that was thrown together in about 2hrs on Wednesday afternoon...!(I know this as they where wandering around shooting parts of it when I was there for a very similar, quick tour.)

It gives a clear state of the Main operational areas, but there's still a fair bit to do on the finishing side of things. Still, she's gonna be leaps ahead of the T-23's.....

Systems Adict

 

[Systems Adict]

...I've just read thru posts #1324 to #1330. I've also took the time to read thru the 3 page article that the Telegraph posted in it's website.

I have to say ....

#1. The Telegraph hasn't said anything new ! Just re-hashed facts that have been rolling around since June 2007, by adding "new" comments from "concerned individuals".

#2. The UK Telegraph & Guardian Newspapers are very good at "poking big sticks" & passing comment about the state of the UK's defences while having a dig at defence contractors, such as BAE, by printing column after column of so called "news".

#3. If, those of you here who are UK citizens & feel that you're unhappy with how the UK Govt is spending YOUR hard earned cash, then get off this site & log onto the house of commons or No. 10 Downing Street websites & put your thoughts into an e-mail to your local MP / Minister for Defence / The Prime Minister.

While venting on here, you are only venting at each other, not at the cause of such decisions. Then again, as a taxpayer, would you welcome a 2 pence hike in income tax to pay for the defence of this country??, or are you happy enough to let our once proud defence services fade into the background, hated & ridiculed, by our former dependants??

You Decide...

Systems Adict

 

[perfectgeneral]

You guys need a major surface combatant building program soon, because 20 surface combatants isn't enough to protect these HVU amphibious ships and carriers your nation is buying.

I would welcome the government willing to spend 3%+ of GDP on defence, but where is it? :unknown

We should be building two escorts a year, but we will be lucky if there is money left to build one a year. To exert a consistant presence with our carriers we should really have three or even four, but we can't afford that either. The cash is all going on consultants...:teary

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Your response to me has repeated your response to the media articles, you attack the messenger.

No, I criticise you. This forum is not populated by Borg - a rebuke towards you is not one directed towards everyone. Or are you a self-appointed chairman of the forum, who thinks criticism towards himself is such an outrage that it is as good as made towards the "little people" too?

I do get a little irritated sometimes by near-continuous posting of speculative articles about cuts, but generally I get on with most people here. So one has to ask the question - why are you the exception to the rule?

You guys need a major surface combatant building program soon, because 20 surface combatants isn't enough to protect these HVU amphibious ships and carriers your nation is buying.

Last time I looked we had 25 escorts. That number may go down at least for a time, but we're not there yet. Also though we may go from having eight to six destroyers I would much prefer to see a taskforce protected by two Type-45s than three/four Type-42s. A reduction in numbers may require them to stay off flag-waving/non-essential work so they can always be available for escort duty, but if that's the way it is then that is the way it will be.

As for a building programme, we do need to see something start early/mid next decade. There has been much speculation about the C3 or C2 class progressing to a point prior to main-gate in the next year or so, but just as with announcements of cuts there is no firm evidence of that happening yet.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

The cash is all going on consultants...

We don't need hyperbole on the forum - you know it isn't all going on consultants. In part it's going on fighting two conflicts and buying new equipment to keep that effort going - anyone who voted Labour or Conservative at the general election is in their own way responsible for that.

Then of course there's the unfortunate fact that a lot of naval equipment needed replacing at the same time. Same applies to the other services in many ways.

 

[Systems Adict]

We should be building two escorts a year, but we will be lucky if there is money left to build one a year. To exert a presence with our carriers we should really have three or even four, but we can't afford that either.

Yes, in an IDEAL world we would !

But get with the programme ! This is the UK, we've sold our construction abilities down the river since the 1950's, when the UK govt thought it'd be a good idea to "teach" the Asian Nations how to weld...

Then again, the Conservatives thought it would be a better idea to try & outsource our building abilities to the Cheapest manufacturer, stuff the quality / build delays / the fact that they'd put 10's of 1,000's onto the unemployment line.(thankfully, it didn't quite happen like that, but came close with the competitive tendering process that Europe foisted onto the UK...)

However, this added to decades of under funding, budget cuts & bizarre "decisions" that were made when govt's switched from one side to the other (labour / conservative, & vice versa), have all taken their toll on the once proud, world-beating industry !


The latest "Defence Initiative", to merge private companies into "a single entity", while a good idea on paper, will lead to yet more costs, as the companies start adhering to the letter of their contracts, then start back charging the UK govt for delays, due to changes, when the design baseline gets modified every 18 months, as has been the case for decades !
(The joys of "Senior" RN people getting shuffled).

All of this on top of an Engineering industry that doesn't have enough properly experienced engineers to carry out the job, which leads onto your next comment....

The cash is all going on consultants...

(Note : Are you speaking from personal experience ?? )

I know that a minimum £45k pa (sterling) is the going rate, with many getting even more !

This fact starts to stick in the throats of permanent employees of the companies, who are getting approx half of that!

It gets worse, when ex-RN staff are brought in because of their "experience" on operating the equipment, but who have never had to deal with the design & integration of the systems.

Add to this the fact that many of them, while having a CV full of experience & the very odd technical qualification, don't have the formal qualifications of Electricians, Engineers, Pipe fitters, Welders, Platers, Shipwrights, CAD Draughtsmen, etc. So when it comes to assigning them off to do manual, hands on tasks, many of them are as much use as a chocolate watch!

Rant over....


Systems Adict

PS I'd started drafting all this before Musashi's comments, so they haven't been taken into account, sorry...The joys of being slow. (lol)

 

[harryriedl]

I do like a bit of paranoia to revive a thread please for god sake do have to have these crap stories to reguvinate a thread please some real news not crap stories from papers who have no idea about defense. [do we have to black list these articals as inflammatory as they say nothing new and just cause flame war's]
also the Torygraph seems to be the only paper carry the story which means its accuracy is very very doubtful
No the sea harrier was not part of Daily telegraph conspiracies it was in the options for change defense bill.

there seems to be a golden age for the RN in future well im in the half full rather than the half empty unlike Galrahn, spsun100001, and overlander [im waiting for doom and gloom speech on how the RN is going to smaller than Jamaican navey]

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

please for god sake do have to have these crap stories to reguvinate a thread please some real news not crap stories

Sadly because there is no concrete news on a number of matters people will try to fill the void with whatever they can lay their hands on - it's human nature.

 

[TimmyC]

You guys need a major surface combatant building program soon, because 20 surface combatants isn't enough to protect these HVU amphibious ships and carriers your nation is buying.

Yes the RN does need a major surface combatant building program.
As does the USN, a modern era fleet of what was once 600 vessels to less than 300. The retiring of her last non-nuclear carriers with dubious progress being made on the latest class replacements.
As for a USN major surface combatant building program well, the last I heard was they couldn't afford to finish building the planned number of prototypes let alone the real McCoy.
Meanwhile, I hear Afghanistan's navy is getting everything it ever wished for..

 

[perfectgeneral]

No Hyperbole intended

We spend much more on the NHS than defence. Medical consultants have just got a new deal that they do very well from. The NHS has also shelled out a fortune on management consultants and IT consultants in recent years. Too much money pumped in without a plan. The NHS has probably wasted more on the wrong IT deal than the UKNDA are looking for extra towards defence.