The Kitty Hawk Port Snub

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Galrahn

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I'm a bit surprised no one is talking about the Kitty Hawk incident at Hong Kong. I understand it is mostly an American-China issue, but the details coming out are not trivial and there are a bunch of people, particularly US Navy people, that are pissed off.

We have 2 minesweepers not allowed into port forced to weather a storm in their return to Japan while low on fuel. I imagine that sucked.

We have a carrier strike group turned away from port with hundreds of family members who spent a bunch of money to see sailors in Hong Kong left paying a bunch of money for nothing.

We have a major Chinese 2 fleet exercise involving a scenario designed to shut down the Taiwan Straits.

Finally, it now appears the Kitty Hawk CSG sailed through the Strait of Taiwan, which is a big deal to the Chinese, after the CSG was snubbed.

Seems to me between the excellent photography released by China of the exercise, and the fact this is a torpedo in military relations between China and the US someone here would be talking about it by now.

The only reason I raise the topic is because the quality of discussion here is usually higher than other forums, yet on this incident that is alive all over the US news blogs (while asleep on TV) there isn't much discussion here.
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The only reason I raise the topic is because the quality of discussion here is usually higher than other forums, yet on this incident that is alive all over the US news blogs (while asleep on TV) there isn't much discussion here.
I certainly have a view but have kept my counsel for a few reasons.....
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Some observations.

Refusing a planned port call is not a mistake; the decision to do so is not taken at a low level.

As a result the PLAN exercise got injected with a "live" USN carrier group.

The carrier groups options was "restricted" wrt routes to Japan from the refused port call as well as the weather; thus the PRC exercised indirect control (albeit under peacetime conditions). An exercise in SE Asian psychology?
 

Schumacher

New Member
It only gets more interesting. White House said the Chinese FM told Bush it was a misunderstanding, then China denies having said so.
I think the decision to deny entry by Kitty Hawk was deliberate, given the same happened to the 2 minesweepers. Maybe to send some political message etc.
Most Chinese officials wouldn't know about Thanksgiving. So I do believe the part where they changed their mind after realizing the significance of this date, rather than this being another part of the political maneuvering.

http://www.reuters.com/articlePrint?articleId=USPEK36152320071129

China denies called U.S. carrier saga misunderstanding
Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:13am EST

By Ben Blanchard

BEIJING (Reuters) - The saga of a U.S. aircraft carrier being denied entry to Hong Kong at Thanksgiving took a bizarre turn on Thursday when China denied saying the whole affair had been a misunderstanding.

The White House said Chinese Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi had told President George W. Bush as much on Wednesday.

The Defense Department said it had issued a formal complaint to China and that Beijing still had not provided sufficient explanation for blocking the USS Kitty Hawk, and eight ships traveling with it, entry to Hong Kong for a long-planned Thanksgiving holiday visit.

China later changed its mind, but by then the carrier group was steaming back to Japan.

"Reports that Foreign Minister Yang said in the United States that it was a misunderstanding do not accord with the facts," Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao told a news conference.

"China approved the visit of the Kitty Hawk group to Hong Kong based on humanitarian reasons. The decision made by the U.S. later was up to them." He did not elaborate. Liu also denied receiving a complaint from the U.S.

"The Chinese side has not received any protest from the U.S. side. I don't think there should be a protest on this issue," he said, suggesting reporters ask the U.S. why its officials decided not to send the ship to Hong Kong after China approved the visit.

Beijing's action came as a surprise just weeks after a visit to China by U.S. Defense Secretary Robert Gates that has been described by U.S. officials as positive.

China-U.S. relations have improved since 2001, when their militaries broke contact following a collision between a Chinese fighter jet and U.S. spy plane.

But many differences remain over issues such as China's military build-up and U.S. weapon sales to Taiwan.

There has been speculation China's move to block the ships was related to irritation over U.S. plans to help Taiwan upgrade its missile system and a meeting between Bush and exiled Tibetan spiritual leader the Dalai Lama.

Liu said he thought generally that Sino-U.S. ties were developing well but expressed dissatisfaction with some recent U.S. actions.

"We think that generally communication, talks and exchanges are progressing smoothly. Both sides have smooth communication on bilateral and international issues," he added.

"But it should be pointed out that recently, bilateral relations have been interfered with and damaged by mistaken actions by the U.S. For examples, U.S. leaders have met the Dalai Lama," Liu said.

"Also on the Taiwan question, China approves of the U.S. opposing Taiwan's U.N. entry referendum," he added. "At the same time, we have grave concern with U.S. arms sales to Taiwan."

(Editing by Ken Wills and Jerry Norton)
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
Until i saw the response from the US Navy about this incident and the other rejection where two minesweepers was denied entry i was able to keep calm. .
Admin: Text deleted. Please read the forum rules before posting or replying to any threads.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

Actually not much to talk about.

Probably a low level screw up that caused a delay to ok the port call. Then the chinese govt deciding to spin it into a political point thus distracting from the screw up in the first place.

Its a calculated move, at least the spin bit. The Chinese probably figure that Bush Jnr is on the way out and wouldn't be able to screw up relations any worse than he has done in the short time he has left.

What I think the Chinese fail to calculate is how the media is going to spin this into a sino-demonisation exercise.

Consider the 2 gribes. Their calculation probably is as follows:

(i) US selling arms to Taiwan

It wouldn't influence US policy. Its not that US doesn't want to sell more arms but Taiwan not wanting to buy them. The US can't really raise the level of arms sales to Taiwan without Taiwanese support.

(ii) Dalai Lama recognition

The Chinese can't touch the Dalai Lama nor influence his support in the US. If they respond, they give the DL credibility. If they don't respond, they look ineffectual. So they use this as an excuse.

Anything the Pentagon does right now will probably be reversed in a charm offensive towards the new president come next year. They'd probably give port call oks to make the new president feel like he or she is doing something to improve ties.

Once one strips off the media spin, its actually a meaningless episode.
 

Transient

Member
its actually a meaningless episode.
1. The decision to deny CSG entry despite prior approval given cannot possibly be a 'low level decision'. It may be an idiot's decision, but it's not a low level decision.

2. It's far from meaningless. The USN is royally pissed. The decision to deny ships in distress safe harbour is something they take very seriously, as can be seen from here. "For the Chinese to have denied those two ships in particular, small though they may be, that is a different kettle of fish for us, and is in ways more disturbing, more perplexing than the denial for the Kitty Hawk's port visit request," he (Adm Keating) said. That shows the gravity of China's actions in the eyes of the USN.

3. Unless they get a really satisfactory explanation and apology from China, I don't think you can expect HK port visits by the USN anytime soon.

4. Advocates of engagement with China would have a harder time justifying their case. This just shows that the USN cannot expect China to reciprocate goodwill measures. It takes two to clap.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
After a few decades New Zealand still hasn't got the news. If China wants to follow New Zealand's example, its fine with me. The United States can ignore China just as easily.
 

Firehorse

Banned Member
IMHO, the US now needs China more than China needs the US, for variety of economic, political and military reasons. Since they have not yet their own CBG to show the flag, the KH CSG was prevented for showing their flags in a former British colony. As a result, by denying an entry to HK, China has showed that it shouldn't be taken for granted anymore.
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
The US has also been conducting some pretty serious operations off the Chinese coast. I think this is further souring of the relationship..

These two are going to head butt each other more and more often. China is building its confidence and trying to assert itself.

I don't think the US will stay up late thinking about this. China is just playing up its small man syndrome.
 

Galrahn

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
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I tend to wonder if this increases the tension at sea between the two Navies, it certainly adds to distrust. The Pentagon is trying to get the two nations to work together in an exercise, but between the MIW and CSG groups, China just pissed off 60%+ of the forward deployed sailors, who won't be too happy to go 'work' with the Chinese.

If there is value added in partnership through training, is the opposite a value loss?

I know one thing, I'd hate to be the next Song captain asked to tail the KH.
 

chunga1

New Member
this was not some low level decision, this was a calculated response to our dealings with taiwan. imo if they want to play these games the us should tell them no more imports until they stop selling arms to our enemies

China Explains Decision to Block U.S. Ships
if they want to play this game if we had any gumption we would ban some(all) imports for their sales of arms to our enemies


By DAVID LAGUE
Published: November 30, 2007
BEIJING, Nov. 29 — China denied permission for a United States aircraft carrier battle group and other American warships to visit Hong Kong last week because of the Bush administration’s proposal to sell upgrades to Patriot antimissile batteries to Taiwan, Chinese state media said today.

Beijing also said today that Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi had not told President Bush in a meeting Wednesday that the decisions to deny the ship visits were a “misunderstanding,” as the White House had reported after the talks.

“Reports that Foreign Minister Yang said in the United States that it was a misunderstanding do not accord with the facts,” a Foreign Ministry spokesman, Liu Jianchao, said in Beijing today, adding that China had “grave concern” over United States weapons sales to Taiwan.

Mr. Liu said that Mr. Bush’s meeting with the Dalai Lama in Washington in October had also damaged ties between the two countries.

The decision to cancel a Thanksgiving port visit to Hong Kong by the American aircraft carrier Kitty Hawk and its battle group has renewed tension in the sometimes troubled relationship between the American military and its counterpart in China, which is rapidly modernizing.

Without giving a reason for denying the Kitty Hawk visit, Beijing later reversed its decision, citing “humanitarian grounds,” to allow some of the ships’ sailors to meet up with their families who had traveled to Hong Kong to meet them. But by then it was too late, and the battle group with its 8,000 sailors was returning to its base in Yokosuka in Japan.

Days before the Kitty Hawk was turned away, China refused permission for two United States Navy minesweepers to shelter in Hong Kong’s harbor during a storm and to take on supplies. The ships were later refueled at sea, the Navy said.

The Pentagon lodged a formal protest Wednesday with the Chinese government after senior United States naval commanders said they were particularly troubled by the unexplained decision to deny refuge to the minesweepers.

Today, The Global Times, a tabloid published by the Communist Party newspaper The People’s Daily, quoted an unidentified senior Chinese navy captain as saying that Taiwan had become an even more sensitive issue because of President Chen Shui-bian’s campaign to win a seat for Taiwan at the United Nations.

“But, the U.S. went ahead and sold Taiwan Patriot II missile systems and related equipment,” the captain was quoted as saying. “This obviously sends Chen Shui-bian a wrong signal. That is why a lot of activity between China and America was stopped.” The captain told The Global Times that Washington had behaved irrationally by trying to go ahead with the Hong Kong visit after it had announced the Patriot sale. “Under normal circumstances, the U.S. Navy should have changed its port visiting plans,” the captain said.

“After the U.S. seriously harms China’s interests, it still asks for an embrace from China,” the officer said. “There is no reason in the world for us to do so.”

Hong Kong has been a favorite rest and recreation stop for the American Navy but, since the city reverted to Chinese rule in 1997, Beijing has suspended port calls when it wanted to send messages of protest to Washington over American actions.

Port visits were suspended in 1999 when the United States bombed the Chinese embassy in Belgrade and again after the 2001 mid-air collision.

The new dispute has come to the fore even as the Pentagon has been striving to improve ties with the Chinese military, a relationship that reached a low in 2001 after the collision off the Chinese coast of an American Navy surveillance aircraft and a Chinese attack jet.

On visits to China in recent months, senior American officials, including Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates, and top military officers have called on China to reveal more about the reasons for its rapid increase in defense spending and about its long-term strategic goals.

They have also encouraged more exchanges of senior officers to improve communications and to build trust and understanding.

The sides have agreed to work toward installing a hotline that could reduce the risk of conflict arising from accidents or miscalculations.

Shortly after Mr. Gates visited Beijing this month, the Pentagon announced that it would sell Taiwan upgrades to its Patriot missile system for about $940 million.

Security experts said Beijing was strongly opposed to the sale because it could help Taiwan counter the almost 1,000 short- and medium-range ballistic missiles the Chinese military has arrayed against it.

“This is very sensitive to the Chinese side,” said Andrei Chang, an expert in Hong Kong on the Chinese and Taiwan militaries and editor in chief of Kanwa Defense Review magazine. “They recognize that this kind of technology will change the military balance in the Taiwan Strait.”

A Pentagon spokesman, Geoff Morrell, said Wednesday that the Chinese military attache in Washington, Maj. Gen. Zhao Ning, had been summoned to meet with David Sedney, the deputy assistant secretary for China issues.

“Mr. Sedney expressed our deep regret and concern with China’s denial of diplomatic clearance for the two minesweepers and the Kitty Hawk,” Mr. Morrell said.

For the United States, friction caused by the port visits is a reminder of the difficulty facing Washington as it attempts to engage the increasingly powerful Chinese armed forces while continuing to be Taiwan’s most important military ally, analysts said.

The Pentagon and other foreign militaries agree that a top priority for the Chinese is to develop a force that has the firepower to enforce Beijing’s claim over Taiwan and deter or defeat the United States if it tries to defend the island.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/world/asia/30ship.html?_r=1&ref=world&oref=slogin
 
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oxforduniversit

New Member
Admin: You seem to have an incredibly poor comprehension of english, when patient advice has been given about the rules of this site - and that surprises me for somone who implies association with Oxford University.

If you don't like the rules, then don't post. If you want to make silly comments and be the local hero, then you're wasting your time.

Text deleted for being off topic and for baiting the Web and Mods.


>>>By DAVID LAGUE
Published: November 30, 2007
BEIJING, Nov. 29 — China denied permission for a United States aircraft carrier battle group and other American warships to visit Hong Kong last week because of the Bush administration’s proposal to sell upgrades to Patriot antimissile batteries to Taiwan, Chinese state media said today.>>>

My response I agree with China, China doesn't agree with the enforcement with the US allowing NATO to invade post Soviet countries so China playing the same role, that should stand firm and not let the US bring in US aircraft carriers and other US warships wasting fuel and other miltary tactics to sell missiles or impress Taiwan.

Is that ok adminstator, did I report correctly this time? I replied to the topic like you asked:shudder
 
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alexsa

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Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
My response I agree with China, China doesn't agree with the enforcement
with the US allowing NATO to invade post Soviet countries
I hope this is just poor english....... otherwise I would consider this an incredibley inflamatory comment. As far as ex-warpact countires are concnered NATO did not invade, the elected governments of those contries requested particpation in NATO.

Otherwise the only other incident I can think of is the intervention in the Balkens, Given this was to stop an ongoing genocide I have some problems with the suggestion that it was and invasions as the other option was to allow the killing to continue.
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
My response I agree with China, China doesn't agree with the enforcement
with the US allowing NATO to invade post Soviet countries so China playing the same role, that should stand firm and not let the US bring in US aircraft carriers and other US warships wasting fuel and other miltary tactics to sell missiles or impress Taiwan.
Could you please clarify what you mean with the comment about "the US allowing NATO to invade post Soviet countries?" I am not aware of any such invasion. :confused:

Tas.
 

weasel1962

New Member
Re:

No country in the world will not allow ships in distress into their ports except perhaps Afghanistan who doesn't have any ports. As mentioned by the Chinese govt, all port calls are on a case by case basis. I really doubt if the Chinese wanted to show the world what kind of "humantarians" they are by disallowing port calls for ships in distress. The kitty hawk incident was probably used as an attempt to rectify the mistake ie allowed approval on "humanitarian" grounds to deflect attention from the minesweepers incident. After all, its not like a CVBG would need "humanitarian" assistance.

Imho, the slow approval process is unlikely to be calculated. The Chinese probably tot the Kitty Hawk would wait a while. They were obviously wrong about that.

btw, I'm not defending China's actions. Its just humorous to me the mountain construction ability out of molehills. Its easy to read too much into Chinese actions. Sometimes we forget that the Chinese are only humans. They make mistakes too and like some countries, refuse to apologise when they do.
 

Schumacher

New Member
........ After all, its not like a CVBG would need "humanitarian" assistance.

Imho, the slow approval process is unlikely to be calculated. The Chinese probably tot the Kitty Hawk would wait a while. They were obviously wrong about that.
.........
I believe by 'humanitarian' they meant in relation to Thanksgiving & the families in waiting HK rather than that the carrier was in any distress requiring urgent access to port.
Playing 'hard to get' after being rejected & wanting to send some message themselves probably also played some part in USN's decision not to return after the permission was eventually given.
Unfortunately, the sailors & families got caught in this 'game'.
 

Capt. Picard

New Member
There seems to be some fairly juvenille attitudes out there about this subject. You need to look at this from the Chinese point of view if you really are interested in understanding what this happened. As a westerner living in China I offer the following points.

1/ The number one policy preoccupation in China is the "reunification" of China. i.e. the bringing of Taiwan in the fold. Any action that works against this is going to have a big reaction. They consider selling weapon systems supplying a seperatist movement. (Much like the Dalai Lama fuss.)

2/ They point to the USA's attempts to usurp Canadian ownership of the North West Passage as a similiar example where the US is intefering with a soverign country to change the status quo for it's own ends.

3/ I spend a lot of time in the airspace between Hong Kong and Taiwan. Almost every flight I do has US military aircraft hovering around the airspace in the Taiwan Strait. Both Control centres constantly are calling on 121.5 warning these aircraft away from civilian airways. Given this, the Hainan Island incident and numerous other unknown examples of US snooping, little wonder the Chinese are pissed off. Imagine the reaction if Chinese military aircraft spending all day everyday withing 50 miles of JFK Airport.

4/ The Chinese see themselves as the up and coming superpower and will not be pushed around, just like the US feels. The have had a terribly exploited and violent history in the last 100 years, much of it due to foreign influence, and they do not want any more destabilising inteference in their internal affairs. (Obviously they consider Taiwan and the Strait internal).

5/ It is clear they are trying to send a message to the US. "This is our part of the world and you are here as our guests. Don't interfere with our internal affairs".

They know the US has become fatally weak in the last 7 years and they are taking advantage of it. It's hardly suprising and it's easy to understand their motives if you look at things from their point of view for a moment.
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
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Except Yugoslavia was never a Soviet satellite state (they had observer status in WP). ;)
True but it was the only 'incident' that remote appeared military that involved something remotely soviet in respect of the somewhat ridiculous comment he made.:confused:
 
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