USAF F-15 fleet grounded

[F-15 Eagle]

Third best..

The F-22 and F-35 will be one and two

Well whats third best, I will assume it is the Eurofighter, SU-27/30/33/34/35, Rafale, F/A-18 E/F, F-15E Strike Eagle, F-15C Eagle (yes its old, but it can still hold its own against most opponents) and the Gripen.

 

[Preceptor]

Well whats third best, I will assume it is the Eurofighter, SU-27/30/33/34/35, Rafale, F/A-18 E/F, F-15E Strike Eagle, F-15C Eagle (yes its old, but it can still hold its own against most opponents) and the Gripen.

Please do not continue trying to rank aircraft in terms of what is 'best'. The prior two posts were likely attempts at humor as opposed to actual opinions of which aircraft meets the somewhat vague concept of 'best'. Keed in minde that such comparisons are against forum rules.

-Preceptor

 

[Pingu]

The F-22 has been deemed a replacement of the F-117. What does this mean exactly? Does it mean that the F-117 Squadron/s at Holloman will have their F-117s replaced by F-22 and will now be carrying out air-defense or does it mean that they will be continuing as a attack squadron? The reason I ask this is because I see both of these as unlikely, in particular the latter, given the shortage of F-22s. Surely the F-35 should be considered a better replacent of the F-117 but I guess it's not all about "this aircraft replacing that" etc.

But another thing I do not understand is the F-35 being considered as a replacement of the A-10. The A-10's armour and firepower make it irreplacable by the F-35 in the true CAS role. Although I guess future intelligent anti-armour weapons combined with improved ISR will negate the need for the A-10's abilities. If they are to be considered replacements of the A-10, when will they start replacing them?

 

[rjmaz1]

The F-22 has been deemed a replacement of the F-117. What does this mean exactly? Does it mean that the F-117 Squadron/s at Holloman will have their F-117s replaced by F-22 and will now be carrying out air-defense or does it mean that they will be continuing as a attack squadron? The reason I ask this is because I see both of these as unlikely, in particular the latter, given the shortage of F-22s. Surely the F-35 should be considered a better replacent of the F-117 but I guess it's not all about "this aircraft replacing that" etc.

Yep thats exactly correct. Its not about "this aircraft replacing that"

Which is why i found it quite unbelievable that users here cant comprehend that the F-35 will eventually replace the F-15C and F-15E. It will either replace it directly with F15 squadrons converting to F-35 or indirectly with F-15 squadrons retiring due to a reduction in the number of aircraft operated by the USAF. F-35's from other squadrons then take up the roles that were provided by the F-15C and F-15E squadrons.

Though i better not speak to much common sense or ill get accused of talking BS :

The reason why the F-22 will replace the F-117 as the F-117's role has been to take out the most heavily defended targets without escorts. The F-22 has a speed and stealth advantage over the F-35 so the F-22 will be able to hit targets that the F-35 could not.

But another thing I do not understand is the F-35 being considered as a replacement of the A-10. The A-10's armour and firepower make it irreplacable by the F-35 in the true CAS role. Although I guess future intelligent anti-armour weapons combined with improved ISR will negate the need for the A-10's abilities. If they are to be considered replacements of the A-10, when will they start replacing them?

CAS can be performed in different ways. Flying 200 feet off the ground with a big gun is not true CAS anymore. Aircraft now fly at medium altitude and drop small precision bombs. This conserves fuel, increases transit time and reduces the number of aircraft required for a certain area.

The F-35 will have an excellent 360 degree optical systems linked to the helmet mounted display. The F-35 pilot will be able to see things better at 10,000 feet that an A-10 pilot could see at 1,000 feet. This increase in altitude significantly reduces the risk from small arms fire which is a main cause of A-10 losses. The sensor fusion of the future battlefield will allow the F-35 to perform CAS with incredible precision.

In the war on terror as soon as the A-10's turn up the enemy starts running. With the F-35 they will not know they are being watched which will act as a massive deterrent. Terrorists wont strike if there is a good possibility of a SDB dropping on them 60 seconds later

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Yep thats exactly correct. Its not about "this aircraft replacing that"

Which is why i found it quite unbelievable that users here cant comprehend that the F-35 will eventually replace the F-15C and F-15E. It will either replace it directly with F15 squadrons converting to F-35 or indirectly with F-15 squadrons retiring due to a reduction in the number of aircraft operated by the USAF. F-35's from other squadrons then take up the roles that were provided by the F-15C and F-15E squadrons.

Though i better not speak to much common sense or ill get accused of talking BS :

Thats because thats not going to happen, you did not provide any resources to prove to whole F-15 and F-35 debate. It would be best if you do not talk about that anymore because it only caused sniping between members and it was closed for 2 days. Its time to start a new topic on the F-15 now, one that is real and can be backed up by real facts and not just opinion.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

For the second time this month the F-15 fleet has been grounded again because the investigation that was just completed 30 days after the crash said that all F-15 A-D models should be grounded until they inspect all F-15 A-D models and if they need to repair some of the F-15's. The Stand down does not effect the F-15E. The Duration of the stand down is pending the investigation of the inspections and any necessary repair actions.

 

[chunga1]

the us needs to ground all these aircraft untill the can fix all the problems....this is going to leave us a little thin in the air defence role but is the only way to go.........

 

[gf0012-aust]

Yep thats exactly correct. Its not about "this aircraft replacing that"

Which is why i found it quite unbelievable that users here cant comprehend that the F-35 will eventually replace the F-15C and F-15E. It will either replace it directly with F15 squadrons converting to F-35 or indirectly with F-15 squadrons retiring due to a reduction in the number of aircraft operated by the USAF. F-35's from other squadrons then take up the roles that were provided by the F-15C and F-15E squadrons.

It's not about platform replacement - its about requirements. Thats why different F-15's have different taskings. Its why the push is to make aircraft mission modules easily swappable so that there is minimal downtime if an aircraft needs to swap into a different mission requirement.

Though i better not speak to much common sense or ill get accused of talking BS :

When you demonstrate some common sense then you won't cop flack from by those and who actually do work in the relevant areas who aren't students professing to be experts

The reason why the F-22 will replace the F-117 as the F-117's role has been to take out the most heavily defended targets without escorts. The F-22 has a speed and stealth advantage over the F-35 so the F-22 will be able to hit targets that the F-35 could not.

and yet the JSF is regarded as the technologically superior aircraft even though its not VLO. Don't confuse air superiority with multi-role

The F-117 is being replaced because its generationally and functionally obsolete. It was designed as a LO night time striker - period. The F-22 is regarded as having superior RCS even though its LO management is completely different.

CAS can be performed in different ways. Flying 200 feet off the ground with a big gun is not true CAS anymore.

Perhaps I should introduce you to one of the USAF members who is tasked with battlespace management for a Middle Eastern country and who has indicated that CAS has been redefined. There is no such thing as "true CAS" as implying that its low and delivering absolute violence at portable SAM engagement altitudes of delivery.

Aircraft now fly at medium altitude and drop small precision bombs. This conserves fuel, increases transit time and reduces the number of aircraft required for a certain area.

The majority of CAS missions in Afghanistan are at high altitude. Targets are painted and the planes deliver at high altitude. High altitude CAS is just as deliverable against given target matrices as a biggles delivery. The issue is delivery relevance and delivery requirements.

This increase in altitude significantly reduces the risk from small arms fire which is a main cause of A-10 losses.

Can you provide the A-10 data re losses to small arms fire? (please don't use TomChick as the evidence)

btw, actual losses (Congressional and USAF reports): - note the absence of reference to A-10 losses due to small arms fire.


Table I: USAF Manned Aircraft Combat Losses 1990-2002
Date Type Enemy
Weapon
Guidance TIME
17 Jan 1991 F-15E AAA Night
19 Jan 1991 F-15E SA-2E Radar Night
19 Jan 1991 F-16C SA-6 Radar Day
19 Jan 1991 F-4G AAA Night
19 Jan 1991 F-16C SA-3 Radar Day

Table II: USAF Manned Aircraft Combat Losses 1990-2002 by Cause
CAUSE NUMBER LOST
Surface-to-air missiles (SAMs) 13
Antiaircraft artillery 3
Direct enemy action-other 1
Enemy aircraft 0
TOTAL 17


Table V: Types of USAF Aircraft Lost in Combat Since 1990
TYPE OF AIRCRAFT NUMBER LOST ENEMY WEAPON USED
A-10 and OA-10 6 SA-16 (3), SA-13 (2), SA-9 (1)
F-16 5 SA-6 (2), SA-3 (2), AAA (1)
F-15E 2 SA-2 (1), AAA (1)
AC-130 1 SA-16
F-4G 1 AAA
F-117 1 SA-3
EF-111 1 (falsely perceived enemy fighter
attack caused maneuver accident)
31 Jan 1991 AC-130H SA-16 Infrared Day
2 Feb 1991 A-10A SA-16 Infrared Day
13 Feb 1991 EF-111A (maneuver) Night
15 Feb 1991 A-10A SA-13 Infrared Day
15 Feb 1991 A-10A SA-13 Infrared Day
19 Feb 1991 OA-10 SA-9 Infrared Day
22 Feb 1991 A-10A SA-16 Infrared Day
27 Feb 1991 OA-10A SA-16 Infrared Day
27 Feb 1991 F-16C AAA Day
2 Jun 1995 F-16C SA-6 Radar Day
27 Mar 1999 F-117 SA-3 (Radar?) Night
2 May 1999 F-16CG SA-3 (Radar?) Night

 

[chunga1]

aren't they retooling the a-10 to keep them in service?....the airforce needs to keep this plane operational imo

 

[gf0012-aust]

aren't they retooling the a-10 to keep them in service?....the airforce needs to keep this plane operational imo

Yes, BAE and Lockmart have been involved with upgrades. The aircraft still has relevance and has been SLEP'd for another 15 years of use. The 5 year upgrade for all remaining 360+ aircraft was commenced in 2006 (Precision Engagement Program)

The modified aircraft are referred to as A-10C's. Fundamentally, the user interface requirement workload has been reduced by a factor of 3.

US Airforce source:

Under Precision Engagement, the A/OA-10 is being modified to employ the Joint Direct Attack Munition and the Wind Corrected Munitions Dispenser. The program is integrating advanced sensors, a datalink and the LITENING AT and Sniper XR targeting pods onto the aircraft, which will boost pilot situational awareness, targeting capabilities, survivability and communication with other coalition ground and air elements.

An aircraft modified with the Precision Engagement kit is designated as an A-10C.

"The A-10C program effectively takes one of the most lethal air-to-ground platforms ever designed and significantly upgrades its ability to precisely detect, identify and destroy targets while increasing situational awareness and standoff capability," said John Boker, A-10 Program Manager with the 642nd AESS.

As part of the upgrade effort, the A/OA-10 fleet is receiving advanced integrated cockpit controls and displays, an improved pilot vehicle interface using two new multifunction color displays and a new central interface control unit with three state-of-the-art computer processors to provide stores management -- the control of weapons release and pod employment -- and overall avionics systems integration.

A/OA-10 pilots will enjoy hands-on-stick-and-throttle control of weapons, targeting pods and navigation systems, simplifying their duties considerably.

"Simply put, in the C model, we will have 10 times the information available, from both on- and off-board sources, and the ability to process and act on that information significantly quicker," said Mr. Boker. "Even for a simple laser-guided-bomb delivery, what took roughly 14 cockpit switch changes now takes four with the C model. Just imagine what will happen when we combine machine-to-machine datalink technology with the lethality of the Hawg."

 

[Rossiman]

GF, I was aware that we where updating the A-10s, but i was not aware that we where going to update all versions of the A-10 platform. How much is it going to cost, per A-10 to get upgraded?We also have the F-35 in a few years, It's supposed to be providing close air support, with the A-10C's.

I feel sorry for the tanks/humans that have to feel the 30mm rounds.....
Got to love the sound of the Gatling gun.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

aren't they retooling the a-10 to keep them in service?....the airforce needs to keep this plane operational imo

Yes they are under the A-10C upgrade program, they should stay in service until at least 2028. They should get all new wings and avionics upgrades as well. So the F-35 will not replace the A-10 for some time yet. It is also part of the USAF program to upgrade the F-15C, F-15E, and F-16.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

the us needs to ground all these aircraft untill the can fix all the problems....this is going to leave us a little thin in the air defence role but is the only way to go.........

Yep your right, but at least the stand down is not as severe as a grounding. A time table for the inspections and any repair actions will be done in 2 days from what I read, so its not as bad as a whole fleet wide grounding, its only for a short time from what I read from Google, and it does not effect the F-15E flying combat operations in Iraq and in Afghanistan, but it does hurt Operation Noble Eagle which is air patrols flown by F-15 A-D over the U.S. and in its territory.

 

[gf0012-aust]

How much is it going to cost, per A-10 to get upgraded?

$168m USD for 356 aircraft.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

$168m USD for 356 aircraft.

WOW thats not as much as I thought it would be, I thought it would be in billions not millions but I guess I was wrong, thats good news.

 

[Rossiman]

$168m USD for 356 aircraft.

Thats not bad at all. F15 Eagle said that they will be in service till 2028, i am far fetched on that, considering i have seen different articles being 2011, but never 2028. F-15 eagle would you mind giving me the link.

Alright i found a source that said 2028. But it is Wikipedia....
Hell i don't even care how long they stay in service, upgrading them is a fantastic idea, i love the Hog.

The A-10 is scheduled to stay in service with the USAF until 2028.

The F-35A variant, is primarily intended to replace both the USAF's F-16 Fighting Falcons and A-10 Thunderbolt IIs, beginning in 2011.

 

[gf0012-aust]

USAF source: http://www.af.mil/news

The Air Force awarded the Precision Engagement development contract to Lockheed Martin in 2001. Lockheed Martin received the production contract in February 2005, with the first production kits delivered to Hill AFB in March 2006.

Kit production will run to 2008 with kit installation scheduled to go to 2009.

 

[rjmaz1]

It's not about platform replacement - its about requirements. Thats why different F-15's have different taskings. Its why the push is to make aircraft mission modules easily swappable so that there is minimal downtime if an aircraft needs to swap into a different mission requirement.

Yes that is obvious, the F-35 can still replace the F-15C and F-15E.

You definitely have the most indirect argumentative style on this forum. You say its about requirements but forget that the F-35 can fulfill the requirements that the F-15C/E will have to perform. What is the exact reason the F-35's wont replace the F-15C/E's?

I take it your comment about the push to make swappable mission modules means that the F-35 will replace the F-15C/E as it swaps roles easily?

When you demonstrate some common sense then you won't cop flack from by those and who actually do work in the relevant areas who aren't students professing to be experts

All Arabs are terrorists. So i take it everyone at DSTO are students..

and yet the JSF is regarded as the technologically superior aircraft even though its not VLO. Don't confuse air superiority with multi-role

Not at performing the role of the F-117. The F-117 attacks heavily defended targets. The F-22 can hit targets that are more heavily defended than the F-35 due to its speed and VLO. It doesn't matter if the F-35 is technologically superior it cannot perform the role of the F-117 as well as the F22.

The F-117 is being replaced because its generationally and functionally obsolete. It was designed as a LO night time striker - period. The F-22 is regarded as having superior RCS even though its LO management is completely different.

Isn't that the reason most aircraft are replaced?

Someone asked why the F-22 is replacing the F-117 and not the F-35. I stated the reasons due to its VLO and speed advantage.

Perhaps I should introduce you to one of the USAF members who is tasked with battlespace management for a Middle Eastern country and who has indicated that CAS has been redefined. There is no such thing as "true CAS" as implying that its low and delivering absolute violence at portable SAM engagement altitudes of delivery.

Im not the one who stated "true CAS" being low altitude. The only form of CAS will be performed at much higher altitude.

The majority of CAS missions in Afghanistan are at high altitude. Targets are painted and the planes deliver at high altitude.

Which have often been provided by B-1b's. and soon to be F-35.

Can you provide the A-10 data re losses to small arms fire? (please don't use TomChick as the evidence)

I stand corrected. MANPADS is the main cause.

 

[gf0012-aust]

All Arabs are terrorists. So i take it everyone at DSTO are students..

You're claiming now to be at DSTO? (6 months ago you were a 17 year old student?)

Considering that I work with people from DSTO then you can send me your government address so that I can validate your credentials.

You're banned until its clarified.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Yes that is obvious, the F-35 can still replace the F-15C and F-15E.

You definitely have the most indirect argumentative style on this forum. You say its about requirements but forget that the F-35 can fulfill the requirements that the F-15C/E will have to perform. What is the exact reason the F-35's wont replace the F-15C/E's?

I take it your comment about the push to make swappable mission modules means that the F-35 will replace the F-15C/E as it swaps roles easily?

In 3 sentences you've demonstrated that you haven't understood the concept of swappable mission modules or the issue of Hi-Lo taskings.

All Arabs are terrorists. So i take it everyone at DSTO are students..

Not at all. see previous post. You either lied to Web and I when we banned you last time, or you're being cavalier again

Not at performing the role of the F-117. The F-117 attacks heavily defended targets. The F-22 can hit targets that are more heavily defended than the F-35 due to its speed and VLO. It doesn't matter if the F-35 is technologically superior it cannot perform the role of the F-117 as well as the F22.

The F-117 didn't just attack heavily defended targets - in fact a high proportion were lightly defended as they were camouflaged or below ground. Refer to Bandits over Bagdhad which goes into detail about their actual missions by the pilots who flew them

Isn't that the reason most aircraft are replaced?

No. The SR-71 was replaced because it was more efficient to use one satellite than to run a short squadron of SR-71's. The aircraft was kept in service some 10 years after its last main ferret run over the Soviet Union

Someone asked why the F-22 is replacing the F-117 and not the F-35. I stated the reasons due to its VLO and speed advantage.

No, its because F-22 and JSF fulfill the USAF Hi-Lo model. The F-117 was mission restricted.

Which have often been provided by B-1b's. and soon to be F-35.

Actually the bulk of the Hi-Alt CAS has been by B-52. The JSF won't be on the game until 2012 if they're lucky. It still won't perform long range penetration Hi-Alt CAS. Thats why the B-52's are being SLEPd, thats why the unmanned bomber has been given the giddy up.

JSF is not a man for all seasons, and CAS within USAF is a package effort by disparate platforms as the requirements are broad. Unless JSF ends up co-located near Pakistan, or on Carriers, or gets overflight permission from Iran and Pakistanrolleyes: ), then Hi-Alt LR CAS will remain.