Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[RubiconNZ]

ADF Intiail Approval for Additional 3 Chinooks

I don't think this has been reported yet apologies if it has In the DIAR weekly DEFMIN Nelson has announced a supplemental purchase of 3 Chinooks. They will enter service from 2011-13. “initial approval” to acquire three Boeing CH-47F ‘Chinook’ helicopters to supplement the six ‘D’-model aircraft now in service with the Army’s 5th Aviation Regiment in Townsville (Qld). Dr Nelson said the new helicopters would cost “$400 to $500 million.

Can't provide a link because its a email, great for the Army and ADF hopefully the Labor government doesn't cancel or postpone it because it certainly is a necessary purchase. Very Good news indeed IMO. I wonder once they arrive id our D's will be upgraded to F model, it certainly makes sense.

 

[Tasman]

I don't think this has been reported yet apologies if it has In the DIAR weekly DEFMIN Nelson has announced a supplemental purchase of 3 Chinooks. They will enter service from 2011-13. “initial approval” to acquire three Boeing CH-47F ‘Chinook’ helicopters to supplement the six ‘D’-model aircraft now in service with the Army’s 5th Aviation Regiment in Townsville (Qld). Dr Nelson said the new helicopters would cost “$400 to $500 million.

Can't provide a link because its a email, great for the Army and ADF hopefully the Labor government doesn't cancel or postpone it because it certainly is a necessary purchase. Very Good news indeed IMO. I wonder once they arrive id our D's will be upgraded to F model, it certainly makes sense.

I read the same report and wonder what is meant by 'initial approval.' Apparently it was made just prior to the government going into caretaker mode but as no contract has been signed I guess it will have to be run past the incoming minister and cabinet for confirmation. Interesting that no public announcement was reported.

Tas

 

[AGRA]

The diar.com news archive is located here:

http://www.diar.com/data/news07.htm

 

[RubiconNZ]

I read the same report and wonder what is meant by 'initial approval.' Apparently it was made just prior to the government going into caretaker mode but as no contract has been signed I guess it will have to be run past the incoming minister and cabinet for confirmation. Interesting that no public announcement was reported.

Tas

Indeed, I immediately checked out the MOD site as I thought I must of been out of it for not noticing it earlier, I suppose that was very polite of them, not announcing it. DIAR normally just adds a extra view to a Defence announment so it was a suprise indeed.

 

[McTaff]

I read the same report and wonder what is meant by 'initial approval.' Apparently it was made just prior to the government going into caretaker mode but as no contract has been signed I guess it will have to be run past the incoming minister and cabinet for confirmation. Interesting that no public announcement was reported.

Tas,

That is extremely odd... It's rather like telling a salesman you will definitely buy a car, but you'll send the wife down and he'll have to convince her first.

I wonder why the decision was made at all?

 

[RubiconNZ]

Perhaps it was declaring the semi-urgent need of the helicopters, by announcing as late as it seems to be it perhaps would of been seen as forcing it down the Labor's throat which might lead to its cancellation on pure political grounds. By approving it, it is stating a ADF need while giving the Labor government the oppurtunity to assess it.

 

[Tasman]

Considering Defmin (I guess technically he'd still the minister) Nelson's usual practice of seeking maximum publicity for any ADF procurement decisions I am still at a loss as to why there has been no press release or comment on the ADF site.

Tas

 

[AGRA]

The acquisition of three CH-47Fs "with G features", ie SOF MH-47Gs, has been around the Defence rumour mill for a while. All the Department of Defence (it is not a MOD!) media people were briefed a couple of months ago about how to handle the media response to the acquisition of the helos. Of course as soon as you tell those guys it took about 5 minutes for everyone else in defence and the industry to know an order had been placed.

Defence’s media appreciation as usual was very flawed. SOCOMD-A don’t want anyone to know they are buying anything (as in the Supacat ‘Nary’ SOV), of course so as the Talibs, AQ and JI don’t know about it. Then the conventional defence media types live in absolute fear of the Greens and inner city “bleeding hearts” so don’t want any weapons acquired to appear too warlike…

Now from my take of it, not really being involved in this in anyway, is that Defence has probably requested FMS acquisition. So the timing of the deal’s announcement is not under the control of the Defence Minister, the now wannabe Leader of the Opposition. Its up to the USG to process the application and announce to their own Congress for approval of the sale. So Nelson tried to sneak in a pretty ineffectual announcement of it at the end of the election.

As for diar.com why would anyone want to pay for a service that just collates media releases? You can get it all for free on the internet and at Fifth Column (www.t5c.cx) and with much better analysis than that provided by diar.com.

 

[RubiconNZ]

The acquisition of three CH-47Fs "with G features", ie SOF MH-47Gs, has been around the Defence rumour mill for a while. All the Department of Defence (it is not a MOD!)

Whoops my bad been spending to much time in the NZ threads.

As for diar.com why would anyone want to pay for a service that just collates media releases? You can get it all for free on the internet and at Fifth Column (www.t5c.cx) and with much better analysis than that provided by diar.com.

Yeah I just subscribe to the free trial, I wish I could could afford a subscription like that, but thanks for the link it looks like I could spend a bit of time there
Cheers

 

[Navor86]

But why just 3?
I mean I always thought that they buy at least 8 to bring them to a 12 Helo Sqn for 5 aviation and an add 2 for Oakey respectivly Testing.
I do not know why, but the Numbers of Aussie Helo purchase seem always kind of odd

 

[Tasman]

But why just 3?
I mean I always thought that they buy at least 8 to bring them to a 12 Helo Sqn for 5 aviation and an add 2 for Oakey respectivly Testing.
I do not know why, but the Numbers of Aussie Helo purchase seem always kind of odd

I agree that 3 is a disappointingly small number. I also agree that Australian orders have been on the low side with a number of helo purchases - 6 MRH-90's for the RAN and 22 Tiger ARH's for the Army are other examples where I would like to have seen larger figures. If, however, the 3 new Chinooks are equipped for special ops, as AGRA suggests will be the case, it will still add a welcome new capability to the ADF.

Tas

 

[Aussie Digger]

As for diar.com why would anyone want to pay for a service that just collates media releases? You can get it all for free on the internet and at Fifth Column (www.t5c.cx) and with much better analysis than that provided by diar.com.

It ain't hard to create a new email account at yahoo, hotmail etc... :nutkick

 

[Aussie Digger]

But why just 3?
I mean I always thought that they buy at least 8 to bring them to a 12 Helo Sqn for 5 aviation and an add 2 for Oakey respectivly Testing.
I do not know why, but the Numbers of Aussie Helo purchase seem always kind of odd

They don't seem too odd to me in general. Too few is perhaps debatable but their IS a logic behind the numbers...

40x MRH-90 equates to replacement of 3x 12 strong Blackhawk Squadrons plus attrition / training helo's.

22x Tiger equates to 2x squadrons of 9 helo's (8x operational 1x rotational platform per squadron) plus 4x attrition / training helo's.

3 seems strange on the face of it I admit, but probably allows for 2x deployable helo's for fixed duration deployments, such as the CH-47D's have already done in Iraq and Afghanistan...

 

[riksavage]

Will the Aus Tigers be capable of being upgraded to have similar network and search capabilities as the Longbow WAH-64Ds, or will they remain stand-alone units for the foreseeable future? The British Apache Longbows are using their Longbow radars in A-Stan for a variety of roles, including aerial coordination, keeping track of other helicopters, jets, and UAV’s in the area and for sweeping large areas of desert terrain reinforcing the argument not to have removed them like there US counterparts.

The weapons usage of the 6? UK Apaches in A-Stan is also a useful reference point: - Longbow/Hellfire missiles (72), CRV-7 70mm rockets (800, often the flechette anti-personnel version), and 30mm cannon rounds (21,000). The cannon is so popular that the WAH-64Ds' internal fuel tanks may be sacrificed to increase ammo capacity beyond 300 rounds according to reliable reports.

Moving forward, and assuming Australia remains committed to Afghanistan (5 -10 years), we could possibly witness the first deployment of Tigers in compat operations. Based on the above statistics the current planned weapons fit would appear ideal for the environment. Does anyone know the planned cannon ammo capacity.

 

[RubiconNZ]

The Australian Army Online News Paper has a great article on the Chinooks plus the recent upgrades of our D's
Page 2
http://digital.realviewtechnologies.com/flip.asp?xml=defencenews_army.xml

 

[winnyfield]

worthwhile to check out Aviation Week's Ares blog

Keep in mind that in the hot/high environs of A'stan, helicopters don't often operate at max weight. From Australian Aerospace (E'çopter subsidiary):

Armament
• Up to 52 rockets of 70 mm
• Up to 8 Hellfire missiles
• 30 mm turreted gun with up to 450 rounds

Typical Australian mission configurations:
• Fire power:
254 rounds + 2 Chaff and Flares magazines + 4 AGM + 33 rockets of 70 mm
Transit: 90 NM
30 mn on station
Return; 90 NM
• Reconnaissance:
254 rounds + 2 Chaff and Flares magazines + 2 AGM + 26 rockets of 70 mm
Transit: 90 NM
1h on station
Return 90 MN
• Ferry:
2 Ferry tanks
254 rounds + 2 Chaff and Flares magazines + 1 empty AGM & 1 empty rockets launchers
Ferry 500 NM

 

[Aussie Digger]

Will the Aus Tigers be capable of being upgraded to have similar network and search capabilities as the Longbow WAH-64Ds, or will they remain stand-alone units for the foreseeable future? The British Apache Longbows are using their Longbow radars in A-Stan for a variety of roles, including aerial coordination, keeping track of other helicopters, jets, and UAV’s in the area and for sweeping large areas of desert terrain reinforcing the argument not to have removed them like there US counterparts.

The weapons usage of the 6? UK Apaches in A-Stan is also a useful reference point: - Longbow/Hellfire missiles (72), CRV-7 70mm rockets (800, often the flechette anti-personnel version), and 30mm cannon rounds (21,000). The cannon is so popular that the WAH-64Ds' internal fuel tanks may be sacrificed to increase ammo capacity beyond 300 rounds according to reliable reports.

Moving forward, and assuming Australia remains committed to Afghanistan (5 -10 years), we could possibly witness the first deployment of Tigers in compat operations. Based on the above statistics the current planned weapons fit would appear ideal for the environment. Does anyone know the planned cannon ammo capacity.

The Tigers will have good networked capabilities with it's integral Link 16 TDL and Have Quick II and "legacy" capable radios.

It's sensor suite is highly rated by Army and while it doesn't have a Longbow styled radar, such might be a possibility in future as the Longbow is being developed into a podded version for the AH-1Z Cobra...

Army announced previously that a podded Longbow radar could be part of a future upgrade, with only 1x Longbow radar needed per 4x aircraft, a pod mounted system wouldn't hinder the helo too much...

 

[RubiconNZ]

The Tigers will have good networked capabilities with it's integral Link 16 TDL and Have Quick II and "legacy" capable radios.

It's sensor suite is highly rated by Army and while it doesn't have a Longbow styled radar, such might be a possibility in future as the Longbow is being developed into a podded version for the AH-1Z Cobra...

Army announced previously that a podded Longbow radar could be part of a future upgrade, with only 1x Longbow radar needed per 4x aircraft, a pod mounted system wouldn't hinder the helo too much...

This may of been mentioned here awhile ago but in a past briefing to the Aus Senate, taking the pylon up to hold 16 (4x4) hellfire's would require a stronger engine, something not in the ADF spec at the time 8 being seen as sufficient for what they wanted, but it was said it was a relatively uncomplicated task.

 

[Tasman]

The Australian Army Online News Paper has a great article on the Chinooks plus the recent upgrades of our D's
Page 2
http://digital.realviewtechnologies.com/flip.asp?xml=defencenews_army.xml

Thanks for the link Rob. It was a good article. I am still surprised that the purchase was not reported in the mainstream media. When the extra Chinooks come on line I hope that the army will be able to maintain the detachment in Afghanistan on a continuous basis. I notice, however, that it will be 2011 before the first aircraft is delivered so it will be a while yet before it is able to do that. Maybe the ADF won't even be in Afghanistan then, though my bet is that it will!

Tas

 

[Tasman]

This may of been mentioned here awhile ago but in a past briefing to the Aus Senate, taking the pylon up to hold 16 (4x4) hellfire's would require a stronger engine, something not in the ADF spec at the time 8 being seen as sufficient for what they wanted, but it was said it was a relatively uncomplicated task.

I would still think that 8 Hellfires per Tiger would be sufficient for ADF operations.

Tas