NZDF General discussion thread

FlashG

New Member
Perhaps one could say that historically National has talked up Defence and run foreign policy a bit more on the US / UK / Australia line (thereby offsetting its underinvestment); whereas Labour has downplayed it and been a bit less ready to fall into line, and perhaps until the cancellation of the air strike force has generally been agreeable to new equipment. Labour did decide to buy the Anzacs (and MB339!) even though National then funded them (not cancelled, which must have been tempting in 1990 with the BNZ bailout, if you remember that!). But enough politics.

You would never need to invade NZ. Just station 2 diesel-electric subs off the coast, announce it, and watch the oil tankers stay away. Then wait for us to agree to anything demanded. As a significant primary producer we do actually have something worth having - lots of surplus food and clean water. We are actually a net creditor nation now as well, thanks to the NZ Super Fund (aka "Cullen fund"), so there wont be foreigners wanting their debts back to make international noise. I'm not saying its likely, but its an easy way, and practical option for some, to pressure us!

Its interesting we buy top-end choppers in NH90 but a cheap modified ro-ro ship for the navy. Is one such ship enough, anyway? Geographically, surely our investment should be in a Navy supported by Air Force? Certainly keep 2 battalion army (not the kind we currently have, ideally) as well. But we live surrounded by ocean!

And I do expect National will increase spending - by perhaps $200m annually over current baselines - and I dont think anyone will notice it!
 

steve33

Member
Mr C, Stuart, Steve - I live to entertain. I also live to provide a reality check. NZ would spend much more on the military if a majority of the voting population wanted us to. "Under a change of government" there will not be a significant increase in military spending - National didn't campaign on it at the last election and I suspect will not do so next year.

I love sharing the majority NZ view (it is so rare, these days, on other issues!).

But it is good for you to have a place to share your fringe/ extremist NZ opinions. You guys need an outlet. Perhaps you should publicly campaign for increased spending. If a majority actually agreed with you it could happen. Be strong.

BTW Stu - again with the criticism of NZ. The Tokelau islands have a population of less than 2,000, have islands with a land mass of about 10km squared, are thousands of kilometres away from NZ, a gross domestic product equivalent to a very small NZ town and we've tried to get them to vote for independence.

Are you criticising NZ for not having a NZ ship permanently stationed there to patrol their waters? I'm all for paying welfare where necessary but their GDP is only a few million per year and you seem to suggest we should station 10s of millions of dollars worth of military assets there to protect it.

So there are mines off our shores? As far as I know there have been thousands of ship visits to NZ since WW2 without any having been sunk recently from these "mines". How many are still working? Any?
Where extremist fringe New Zealand because we don,t believe in the country being left with no way to defend it,s self in a world that runs on greed,self interest and might and a world where the resources are going to be put under the most severe strain in the history of mankind in the coming decades.

It sums up how complacent our country has become and the majority of people give very little thought to the world we are going to be living in a few decades from now.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
This is one of the most cogent and authoritive speeches concerning New Zealand's Defence in recent years and puts into broader perspective the reality of where Defence is in New Zealand at present. Mr Hensley was a former Defence Secretary from 1990-1999, a former Chief of Staff to both Prime Minister Lange and Muldoon, Treasury Official, NZ Ambassador in South East Asia, Representative to the United Nations and the Commonwealth and in the earlier part of his Diplomatic Career guided the Independence of Samoa.

ASIA FORUM

NEW ZEALAND SECURITY: DOES ASIA MATTER?

Address by Gerald Hensley, Wednesday, 18 July 2001

Many years ago, a magazine put out by the Not the Nine O'Clock News team had a ribbon across its cover saying "The Shah: Is He Really Dead?-p.15". When you turned to page l5 a small box said, "Of course he is, you idiot".

You might well think that the question, "does Asia's security matter to us?", is also hardly worth asking. That I could simply say, "Of course it does", and spare you the next twenty minutes. But the strange and rather alarming truth is that many New Zealanders have drifted into the assumption that Asia does not matter to our security. The oceanic distances which surround us insulate us from all but the threat of direct invasion. And short of this unlikely event, they believe, we can and indeed should stand aloof from what at least one Government Minister likes to call 'other people's wars'.

Our new defence policy, announced last May, is founded on these assumptions. It makes the confident judgment that, in the words of last year's Defence Policy Framework, New Zealand "is not likely to be involved in widespread armed conflict", though it advances no evidence to support this view. On that basis we can adopt a 'close-to-home' defence strategy while maintaining two modestly-armed battalions for peacekeeping work, tidying up after other peoples' wars.

The Prime Minister has said that "we live in an incredibly benign strategic environment".

We can therefore dispense with anti-submarine aircraft because submarines are not a bother to New Zealand. We can dispense with an air combat force on the grounds that we have never used it, and we can begin the process of re-equipping the navy for more of a fisheries protection and disaster relief role.

The trouble is that our incredibly benign strategic environment does not extend much beyond our own waters. In the South West Pacific armed unrest is testing the stability of several island nations. Indonesia is faced with unrest and insurgency in several provinces which, together with the continuing vacuum in its political leadership, presents the greatest test of its unity and stability since independence. There are tensions in the South China Sea, the Taiwan Straits and the Korean Peninsula. But above all East Asia is uncertain about its strategic future.

It is this issue - the shape of East Asia's future security architecture - which is preoccupying the minds of the region's policy planners, except down south in New Zealand where the curvature of the earth's surface perhaps hides it from our view. For the arrangement of the past half century, where unchallenged American dominance provided the roof under which much of the region became stable and prosperous, is coming to an end.

The rise of China means that henceforth there will be at least two major military powers vying for influence in the region. Its members know that the relationship between the United States and China will decide their future security and their continuing prosperity. They know that the balance in this relationship is changing as China becomes militarily and economically more confident. Over time China will come to exert more influence on the region's affairs and the United States proportionately less. What they do not know is where the new balance will be struck and what risks there will be in getting there.

The critical point is Taiwan. China has declared over many years that she would fight if Taiwan were to attempt independence, and no-one doubts this. The United States has recently dropped its rather frayed doctrine of strategic ambiguity and made it clear that in certain circumstances it would defend Taiwan. So we have in Asia a risk of war between two nuclear powers. It is not enough to say, as a New Zealand politician did to me, "Thank God we are not involved". Because even a non-nuclear war on that scale would have a disastrous effect on trade, investment and growth throughout the region, including New Zealand.

This is a risk, not a threat. The very size of the stakes will, we can hope, ensure that both sides manage the risk as carefully as possible. The Taiwanese themselves, on whom the final decision rests, must be well aware that whatever other effects a war would have, it would devastate their country. It is not unrealistic to hope that, as investment and other links grow between Taiwan and the mainland and as China's political system becomes more open, the two will draw closer together.

There are also deeper if less focussed worries about the relationship. Fitting a huge new country into an established system is always a delicate matter. Frustrations can build up which can easily turn into a sour nationalism and end in tears. This happened less than a century ago in the case of both Germany and Japan. History need not repeat itself, especially if the international community takes the hint and manages matters with care, but it does remind us of what is at stake over the next generation.

Apart from Taiwan, American and China have no vital interests that conflict. Human rights, Tibet, trade issues can all be managed with sensible diplomacy. There will be bumps and bangs along the way, like the Hainan aircraft incident. Despite his proclaimed inexperience, President Bush seemed to me to manage this with dignity and patience. But China and the United States may be among the most self-consciously nationalist countries in the world and the rumblings of public discontent on both sides are a warning that future collisions will have to be handled skilfully to avoid populist emotions taking over.

Short of open conflict there is a risk that the relationship could degenerate into one of chronic irritability, a kind of grumbling cold war in which each side kept getting constantly across the other. The effects would be very uncomfortable for the rest of us. New divisions would appear in the region, compelling countries over time to align themselves with one or the other; investment would be discouraged and capital would take flight, and there would be a growing sense of insecurity, in New Zealand as elsewhere.

To resist this, to help manage the transition to a new balance as easily as possible, the region's smaller members have a two-pronged strategy. First, they are taking responsibility for a greater share of their defence. The United States is no longer willing, as in the days of the Cold War, to shoulder the burden on its own. Regional countries have no illusions that they can replace the United States, or that they could intervene militarily between that country and China. But they can see, in East Timor and the South China Sea, that American power will no longer be used to deal with every problem. And they understand that having the capability to deter or deal with lesser difficulties avoids the complications of bringing in the big powers.

So every coastal country in the Western Pacific, with the exception of Indonesia and New Zealand, is spending more on its defence. There is no arms race and no increase in tension, simply a steady increase in their security insurance. In every case they are upgrading their military technology to reach beyond their borders and cover their adjacent sea-lanes and trade routes. So they are concentrating, not on land forces, but on sea-air power, as for example is Singapore with its orders for more advanced F16s and plans for six Lafayette-class frigates.

The second prong, as you might expect, is to reinforce this commitment with an active diplomacy. The ASEAN countries took the initiative with their Regional Forum which brings together all the countries in the region, including New Zealand, in an attempt to discuss emerging security problems collectively. China and the US were both wary of being entangled in these Lilliputian strings, as big powers always are, but both have accepted that their business has to be discussed there. It is a gradual process, not to be weighed down with premature expectations, but it has achieved some success already in issues like the South China Sea.

New Zealand is happy enough to join the regional talking but not to make the security
commitment. We are defiantly taking the opposite path. Where other countries are concerned about the risk of future conflict, we have confidently ruled it out. Where others including Australia are spending more we have over the past ten years halved the proportion of our GDP devoted to defence. Where almost everyone else is emphasising sea-air capabilities, the remote island state of New Zealand is concentrating on land forces. We seem to take delight in that song of the thirties, "Hooray, hooray, hooray, we're going the wrong way".

The justification is that we don't need to prepare for future conflicts because troubles in Asia are exactly the 'other peoples' wars' which we would do well to stay out of Korea, Malaya, Confrontation and Vietnam are cited as examples where we should never have intervened. Yet our modest part in those struggles helped bring about the Asia we know today: more democratic, more stable and vastly more prosperous. We have benefited hugely from the Asian miracle which was the consequence. The trade, travel and investment flows have moulded a very disparate collection of countries into a region, and have turned Asia for us from an alien and threatening north into the more familiar presence we know today.

In any case, whatever might be argued about past conflicts, the issue now is whether it is wise or even possible to view our security separately from that of East Asia. In part this involves a judgment about war. Everyone can agree that the nature of war has changed as it has done many times in the past. It is, though, a large leap of logic to assume that it has been abolished. A Member of Parliament recently expressed his confidence that economic links now ruled out the possibility of war. Similar hopes were expressed by John Stuart Mill in 1849 and by Norman Angell in 1908. The hopes are still with us but unfortunately so are the wars.

The plain geographical fact is that the East Asia is the only land mass whose conflicts could directly affect Australia and New Zealand. The South Pacific may make burdensome calls on our resources but it can never threaten our security or our trade. Events in East Asia could do both. This has nothing to do with irrational fears of Asian hordes. It is not our territory which would be at risk but our vital interests, our economic wellbeing. Forty percent of our trade and a growing amount of investment comes from East Asia. The impact on us of the Asian financial crisis four years ago was a reminder that our own. prosperity is becoming increasingly dependent on Asia's.

This common interest in prosperity presupposes a common interest in security, for the two are different sides of the same coin: you cannot have trade, investment and growth without stability. Nor can we be a half-member of the region: in for some purposes and not for others. Lee Kuan Yew pointed out some years ago that East Asia is not some Aladdin's cave of riches to be plundered by others without sharing its concerns. If we look increasingly to its economic advantages then we have to look also to the security which underpins them.

Instead we are signalling that we prefer to sit things out. Whether or not this is ever tested by trouble, such a policy can hardly help being viewed as selfish by our friends in the region. A small country that is reluctant to pay its way cannot look for many favours.

This will be most visible in the change which is coming over our relationship with Australia. It is generally accepted that the two countries cannot be defended separately, that a threat to one would immediately be perceived as a threat to the other. This is not just the view of strategic planners: polling in recent years suggests that around 90% of New Zealanders agree.

Because of its size and geography Australia feels vulnerable to any disorders which might break out in the re 'on. Because we have a common security interest it has expected that New Zealand's forces would be able to help if trouble came. Since Australia's strategy is based on denying the northern sea-air gap to any invader it has placed special emphasis on air and naval combat forces and on anti-submarine patrolling. But these are exactly the capabilities which we have now dropped or cut back.

Australia has had to conclude that, though New Zealand can still play a valuable role in peacekeeping, it can no longer be relied on for help if major trouble comes. Since defence is for Australia the most important strand of the transtasman relationship this will affect other parts which are important to us. The changes to the historic freedom of migration across the Tasman and the hints that Australia would like to go it alone in negotiating a trade agreement with the United States are the first signs of the way in which our defence policy will modify the Anzac relationship.

Our new policy will also modify the relationship we have long had in South East Asia with Singapore and Malaysia. The Five Power Defence Arrangements, linking those two countries with the United Kingdom, Australia and New Zealand may be in some ways a postcolonial relic but in recent years it has come to play an increasingly important role.. It is not just that it is our only formal link to South East Asia's security, but also that its annual exercises have grown into one of the largest and most sophisticated in the region - a significant element in everyone's security calculations.

In recent years there have been calls in New Zealand for our withdrawal from the FPDA as part of the desire to avoid becoming entangled in other peoples' wars. These calls have been resisted; there is too much at stake for our broader relationship with South East Asia. Instead we have quietly dropped out. We have withdrawn, not from the FPDA itself, but from effective participation in it. For the annual exercises are built around the sea-air capabilities of the partners. They test and integrate the combat skills of warships, fighter aircraft and maritime patrol aircraft - again, precisely the capabilities we are dropping or reducing. Though we will still be able to field an occasional warship our dwindling commitment to the partnership is clear to all.

Finally, there is a larger point. All New Zealanders hope for peace, but there is a tendency to assume that peace is the natural state, the default position of mankind. If you remove the various obstacles - whether you believe these to be nuclear weapons, the arms race, poverty or whatever - then, the argument goes, we will have peace. Historical experience suggests that this is a dubious view and perhaps a dangerously complacent one.

Unfortunately there is no reason to believe that peace is where mankind naturally comes to rest. Peace is more elusive than that. It depends on a careful and shifting balance of many factors. It is an equilibrium which requires constant adjustment. And nowhere is this more true than in the Asia-Pacific region.

Peace may be taken for granted among countries which share similar interests, a common outlook and perhaps a common language. War between Australia and New Zealand is as unthinkable as between Canada and the United States or now in Western Europe. But this is not yet the case in East Asia. The past few decades have seen remarkable progress in developing a regional consciousness but we are still a long way from a common outlook. Just because we all wear European suits, eat Chinese food and drive Japanese cars does not mean that we see events in the same way, as the argument over Asian values showed.

In the present delicate period of transition peace in our region is going to have to be worked on more intensively. Relations between China and the West have historically been prone to disastrous misunderstanding and there is little in recent events to suggest that this risk has disappeared. Even small countries can therefore help by pursuing an active diplomacy, provided it is backed by a credible commitment to regional security. New Zealand is gambling that such a commitment is unnecessary. If we are wrong we risk re-leaming a painful lesson from the past: that other peoples' wars can easily become our own.
 

steve33

Member
The article is right on the money we have become an isolationist country thinking what is going on in the rest of the world doesn,t affect us we are living in a dream world.

You would think our foreign policy was written at a Hippie commune.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
The article is right on the money we have become an isolationist country thinking what is going on in the rest of the world doesn,t affect us we are living in a dream world.

You would think our foreign policy was written at a Hippie commune.
It probably was. The only blight on the commentary was the reference to GW being patient. But, it was an international forum and Hensley is a diplomat by trade. Yes it is a great speech.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
It's a pity that Gerald Hensley had finally reached the age where he had to retire a few years ago! Such insightful wisdom after many years of stirling service to his country and like a true professional civil servant he impartially served his political masters under various governments under both major parties. He will be missed.

Or will he?

Or should I say, why should he be?

Why is it that the convention is for civil servants and the serving military not to speak out against their political masters, especially when they start to steer a dangerous course that will have far greater implications - economically, diplomatically and eventually socially - for the wellbeing of this country? (Why can't there be an equivalent for the beauracrats and defence like the Police has with its Police Association, always in the media advocating on behalf of its members or counter attacking poorly thought out Govt policy on policing or crime, or even inept Police Management practice etc)?

It's seems to me, those that have a great deal of knowledge of the relationship between NZ's foreign policy, defence and trade etc, such as the Gerald Hensley's or Ewan Jamieson's or Carey Adamson's etc of this world, are unable to speak out whilst serving, as Govt's, especially since the 1980's, make unilateral decisions on NZ's future for populist reasons but in total disregard to the strategic advice that they are receiving but choosing to ignore.

Why, in a present context, has our current PM who is considered to be a master of foreign policy, chosen against all reasonable advice to steer the country in the direction it is heading? BTW I'm mainly referring to defence and foreign affairs not social issues etc.

Brilliant posting there Mr.C, perhaps we need to post a few more related type posts to broaden people's horizons.

I especially like the following which concisely sums up the importance of NZ's wellbeing tied into defence policy:

The justification is that we don't need to prepare for future conflicts because troubles in Asia are exactly the 'other peoples' wars' which we would do well to stay out of Korea, Malaya, Confrontation and Vietnam are cited as examples where we should never have intervened. Yet our modest part in those struggles helped bring about the Asia we know today: more democratic, more stable and vastly more prosperous. We have benefited hugely from the Asian miracle which was the consequence. The trade, travel and investment flows have moulded a very disparate collection of countries into a region, and have turned Asia for us from an alien and threatening north into the more familiar presence we know today.

The plain geographical fact is that the East Asia is the only land mass whose conflicts could directly affect Australia and New Zealand. The South Pacific may make burdensome calls on our resources but it can never threaten our security or our trade. Events in East Asia could do both. This has nothing to do with irrational fears of Asian hordes. It is not our territory which would be at risk but our vital interests, our economic wellbeing. Forty percent of our trade and a growing amount of investment comes from East Asia. The impact on us of the Asian financial crisis four years ago was a reminder that our own. prosperity is becoming increasingly dependent on Asia's.

This common interest in prosperity presupposes a common interest in security, for the two are different sides of the same coin: you cannot have trade, investment and growth without stability. Nor can we be a half-member of the region: in for some purposes and not for others. Lee Kuan Yew pointed out some years ago that East Asia is not some Aladdin's cave of riches to be plundered by others without sharing its concerns. If we look increasingly to its economic advantages then we have to look also to the security which underpins them.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I rather liked Mr. C's post, it covered a number of areas of potential concern for NZ and other nations in the ASEAN/South Pacific regions.

IMV it would good if NZ in general and the Government specifically took a broad look at NZ's strategic situation, especially before making statements that it is in a benign region. Particularly given what seems to be used as "proof", namely the threat of actual invasion/hostile landing on NZ proper. Given that the nearest nation is approximately 1,000 miles away, and the UN taking a very dim view of one nation invading/conqueroring another nation, I agree that NZ is unlikely to be invaded. To those who are satisfied with NZ's security because it is safe from invasion, that is taking a very narrow, or rather myopic view of NZ's security situation.

A narrow view of the situation should at least include EEZ patroling and enforcement. Given the burgeoning world population and demand for resources, poaching for fisheries is likely to continue. Similarly, pollution control is an issue, with vessels either not caring to abide when not in their home waters or in the future possible deliberate attempts to damage or destroy resources via pollution. While the Projector Protector fleet should help restore some of the lost capacity, it is interesting to note that IIRC the recommendation was for 3 OPV and something like 5-6 IPV instead of the 2 OPV and 4 IPV purchased.

In my opinion, a broad look at NZ's security situation would also look into the security of NZ's trading partners, both where NZ imports products/goods and exports the same, as well as the trading routes between NZ and the trading partner(s). I think few would argue that Indonesia, Singapore, the Philippines, Malaysia and Thailand are not in the most stable of areas. By coincidence, these nations were NZ's 10th, 13th, 15th, 16th and 17th largest export markets in 2006. Piracy has effected trade in and passing through these nations. At least two nations have had terrorist bombing in recent years. One nation had a coup, while two others have insurgencies, one quite active. All of which can effect NZ's trade.

It is of course up to NZ to decide what its needs are. However, by not having any ability to influence or stabilize (or assist other countries in doing so) trading partners or trade routes that can weaken NZ economically and have a negative impact on the lifestyle of every kiwi, never mind the possible humanitarian crisis that could occur amongst the trading partners.

What I would be very interested in hearing would be an explanation, by those who believe it, of NZ being in a benign region strategically, taking into account EEZ issues and threats/risks to trade and trade routes.

-Cheers
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
It's a pity that Gerald Hensley had finally reached the age where he had to retire a few years ago! Such insightful wisdom after many years of stirling service to his country and like a true professional civil servant he impartially served his political masters under various governments under both major parties. He will be missed.

Or will he?

Or should I say, why should he be?

Why is it that the convention is for civil servants and the serving military not to speak out against their political masters, especially when they start to steer a dangerous course that will have far greater implications - economically, diplomatically and eventually socially - for the wellbeing of this country? (Why can't there be an equivalent for the beauracrats and defence like the Police has with its Police Association, always in the media advocating on behalf of its members or counter attacking poorly thought out Govt policy on policing or crime, or even inept Police Management practice etc)?

It's seems to me, those that have a great deal of knowledge of the relationship between NZ's foreign policy, defence and trade etc, such as the Gerald Hensley's or Ewan Jamieson's or Carey Adamson's etc of this world, are unable to speak out whilst serving, as Govt's, especially since the 1980's, make unilateral decisions on NZ's future for populist reasons but in total disregard to the strategic advice that they are receiving but choosing to ignore.

Why, in a present context, has our current PM who is considered to be a master of foreign policy, chosen against all reasonable advice to steer the country in the direction it is heading? BTW I'm mainly referring to defence and foreign affairs not social issues etc.

Brilliant posting there Mr.C, perhaps we need to post a few more related type posts to broaden people's horizons.

I especially like the following which concisely sums up the importance of NZ's wellbeing tied into defence policy:
Ron Mark has long advocated for an independent defence staff organisation which would be able to advocate on pay and conditions for service members as do the Police organisation. He was on the World at Noon at Radio Live last week pointing out that the base pay rate for a new recruit is a pitiful $23000 a year. No wonder we have a such a manpower crisis. I do not know where the extra 1500 troops by 2010 will come from? That will only get us back to 2002 levels. As you probably know the full establishment of 1/1 battalion is meant to be around 800 and 2/1 battalion around the 725 mark. Both of those battalions were understrength by a couple of hundred back even then. Since then we have been marking time numerically, but the essential problem is in the retention of specialist trades according to General Jerry. We have not meet anywhere the recruitment targets for either the Navy or the RNZAF. I remember a time 25 years ago when people, good sensible smart young people were turned away. The competition to get in was tough and there were no "time out" cards during recruit classroom sessions as there is now. Because of the unique employment situation that regular force personnel suffer compared to all other occupations I believe that Defence Staff should not pay income tax and move the basic pay scale up to at least $30000. Also I believe the territorial service personnel should have a substantial tax rebate and an annual tax free performance bonus. That should go a fair way to helping to resolve the problem. I'm also hoping for Hensley to to write the second volume of his autobiography which would focus on his years as DefSec and in retirement. That should rattle a few cages. I see that Australia has voted for a change of Government. A good omen for us for next year as the public like to change politicians every so often. The ironic thing is that next year will see the New Zealand Government change because of a the flood of special votes flooding in across from the Tasman. The real next year election battle will be fought there as a payback to this current lot who forced them into exile. Poetic Justice indeed.
 

steve33

Member
I agree with increasing pay rates $30,000 should be the starting rate for anyone joining the service and they should pay a tax rate of 10% or less as a reward for being prepared to serve there country.

I saw in the Domonion Post a few days ago an article stating that the two Battalions in the New Zealand army both numbered less than 500 i think the Battalion at Burnham was listed at 493 in october and the one at Linton was listed at around 460.

I have been a big advocate on this forum for a Ranger School for the New Zealand army with a Ranger company attached to each battalion.

We need to create oppurtunity in the new Zealand army as well as raise pay and a ranger school would help do that it would give soldiers the chance to get special operations qualified greatly enhancing themselves as soldiers as well as boosting there pay packets
and encouraging the soldiers around them to raise there performance to match them it would be espically good for section,platoon and company commanders leading the troops.

The New Zealand army also needs to be marketed better there is a perception in the public that the army has clapped out weapons and there not as good as others armies weapons but this is not true our small arms are as good as any and the Carl Gustav 84mm and the Javlin are also right up there,we have brought LAV111 that are comparable with vehicles used by other armies and we are getting new radios.

The New Zealand soldier is also a very well trained soldier he is not just given three months training and thrown a rifle and these things need to be pushed that yes we are a small army but we are very well trained and the equipment is as good as anyone elses.

A lot has to been done if they want to turn around recruitment problems.
 

mug

New Member
The New Zealand army also needs to be marketed better
My thoughts exactly.

Speaking to a variety of civvie mates, I consistenty hear "the Navy only has two ships, the Air Force has no planes and the army has old guns etc."
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Gerald Hensley's (Mr H's) memoir is reported in this item from October 2006:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=18&objectid=10406679

Included this "NZDF under change of Government" apt reference.

"The reader may also be disappointed he has nothing to say either about his subsequent lengthy stint as Secretary of Defence, having been reinstated in that post by National only for the new Government to slash spending on an already cash-strapped military." By the way, the new Govt was National.

Quote from his 2001 speech posted by Mr C-
"Where others including Australia are spending more we have over the past ten years halved the proportion of our GDP devoted to defence." 10 years before July 2001 included only 1.5 years under Labour and 8.5 years under National.

Not a good look for what will happen under a change of government or for his veracity that he would not criticise National for its ills (if you believe reducing military spending is bad) but is happy to criticise Labour for its decisions.

Mr C - No one has been forced into exile. If you don't want to be a NZer and another country will take you then fine. You also mentioned Australia has voted in a "Labor" government. You may not care but, they will sign the Kyoto protocol, support workers rights and get its front line troops out of Iraq. Good news for NZ Labour, bad news for right wing extremists (still entertaining?). The special votes from an Australian Labor dominated country may not be dominated by the anti-NZ Labour party ones you predict they will be.

Mr H wrote that piece in 2001. 6 years later there has been no military induced economic threat to NZ despite his fear based approach.

Rattling peoples cages? An autobiography will not bring any NZ government down. Nobody cares, nobody cares and, oh yeah, nobody cares. As for comments about Ron Mark, his party may not even be in parliament after the next election such is its 5% +/- support.

The repeated comment about tax free/ extra tax rebate status on military wages is nonsense. As every other NZer has to pay tax (including doctors, nurses, firemen, ambulance staff and police) it makes no sense to make the tax system so complicated for 3 tenths of 1 percent of the population. By all means advocate a pay increase if you think they are underpaid.
Here we go again. The Troll is back. The guy without anything positive to add to this forum. A lot of people I know have left and are planning to leave as they have had a gutsful of the indirection, corruption and incompetence of the country. Just keep your head buried in the sand as usual. You offer no solutions or real contributions to this discussion and are rubbished on a daily basis as you try to defend the indefendible. You are a just a party troll. Also remember your dear leaders EFB rort does not reach into Australia. There are a potential 500000 voters in Australia and I dont have to tell you who is going to work hard to get them. Two neighbours with wife and kids in toe have left since August and I know of at least three more young families going post Christmas. They are the ones who said they are going into 'voluntary' exile.

Again you go on about direct treats to New Zealand as being the only arbitor and rationale of defence. That is not the point. Time and time again people on this website have pointed it out to you. Your reading comprehension and cognitive skills must obviously be sub-optimal if you have not been able to understand what is Defence Strategy 101. Basically everything Hensley has said and is coming to pass. It was not just the only speech he has made. And more people are listening to him than they are listening to you. Gerald Hensley v Investigator on international strategic relations and defence. I know which one of you has credibility. I see you are following text book party toady approach by attacking the messenger.

Oh and your cheap shot on Ron Mark. So maybe NZ First wont make it back, but in the context of this topic defence, they would do alot more than any party. I'd like to see them back. I'd like to see Ron head that party and put Defence, Corrections and Policing a front and centre issue. I would be happy for him to be the next Defence Minister when this government changes.

So why cannot serving personnel get a tax holiday? Give us a reason why. I have one. They have totally different working conditions and experiences to any other public service and private service job. Its called combat. I say give them a tax holiday and a pay increase. Its not that difficult for defence force paymasters to not to implement PAYE personnel. In fact I would take it a whole step further. make the NZDF tax exempt. No GST on precurment and no capital charge. Fresh thinking, new ideas, constructively discussing approaches and solutions. Peoples own original thoughts. That what is this site is about. You have never done any of that once.

Put it simply. Lets make this like an episode of Survivor. Who should get voted off this site? Mr C or Investigator. As I have said before go widen your reading of Defence issues or actually read what people have to say in the meantime.

Over the last few months many questions have been asked of you on this site. You never answer the questions. If you think Defence issues in New Zealand are all Paradise and honky dory why do you bother showing up here?

Why do you question peoples patriotism all the time. You wouldn't know and would never know my personal private feelings and experiences about my country and what it means to me.
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
The repeated comment about tax free/ extra tax rebate status on military wages is nonsense. As every other NZer has to pay tax (including doctors, nurses, firemen, ambulance staff and police) it makes no sense to make the tax system so complicated for 3 tenths of 1 percent of the population. By all means advocate a pay increase if you think they are underpaid.
Investigator,
Do you think they are underpaid?
Do you think the chronic shortages in the Army could be solved by a pay raise?
I would like to hear your opinions on it
Regards,
Rob
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
There are a potential 500000 voters in Australia and I dont have to tell you who is going to work hard to get them. Two neighbours with wife and kids in toe have left since August and I know of at least three more young families going post Christmas. They are the ones who said they are going into 'voluntary' exile.
My family was one of them in 1998 we left even on a School Principle and Senior teacher salary my Parents found it hard with four children, so we moved to Brizzy and they haven't looked back, out of my brothers class at Otago Uni, apparently over 75 percent went straight overseas because they wanted better pay and conditions. Perhaps this overseas population could be attracted back with the right incentive, also addressing the "brain drain" could help fulfill the technical shortage.
Regards,
Rob
 

StingrayOZ

Super Moderator
Staff member
Its not just about direct attack.

I think you will find that NZ general policy is Australia will bail NZ out of any trouble it gets into. If Australia was a less peaceful and stable place, you would find NZ would have a conciderable defence force.

Its about securing the region. The region is not just 200 nm of EEC. Its the entire pacific. Stopping Fiji, PNG, Solomons, etc falling over. Stopping other countries picking on and suppressing smaller areas (Timor). About asserting yourself in the region so other nations don't feel the need to crawl into your space (less an issue for NZ although China could start poking around the pacific).

Its about being able to meaningfully and effectively contribute to multinational efforts. That should be the overriding policy. I think NZDF should work a heck of alot close with Australia, perhaps even merge. Perhaps like the UK style with NZ based regiments or something.

They would be paid NZ wages, except when deployed with Australian missions/troops, then the Oz gubberment would top up the wages.

Australia I would imagine pay defense personel more and they would be offered a wider varity of work. Australia is currently tapping into UK defense people. Australia is getting destroyers, new frigates ships that look like light carriers but are really large amphibious ships, currently has 6 huge conventional subs, building new ones, F-35's, Superhornets, C-17's, satellites, M1 tanks, OTHR, UAV's, space stations, laser death rays etc.

If Australia could solve its recruitment issues, I would imagine there would be further aquitions.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Because of the unique employment situation that regular force personnel suffer compared to all other occupations I believe that Defence Staff should not pay income tax and move the basic pay scale up to at least $30000.
Are you nuts, seriously if you made joining the defence forces tax exempt you would get every other public servant in the country also demanding a tax free income, could you imagine the strikes we would get, that would mean putting up taxes for the rest of us.
 

steve33

Member
Are you nuts, seriously if you made joining the defence forces tax exempt you would get every other public servant in the country also demanding a tax free income, could you imagine the strikes we would get, that would mean putting up taxes for the rest of us.
I would give the military a 10% tax rate and tell the public servants that when they are prepared to put there lives on the line for there country they can get the same.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Try telling that to social workers, police, emergency room personal. I have an uncle who is a social worker, he's been assulted several times, another friend who is in the Police was put in hospital with a broken jaw, even teachers are beaton up by kids these days, the defence force are not the only public servants in NZ who are put in danger every day. I have another uncle who retired as a Lt Colonel a few years ago, in his 25 years in the army he never came anywhere near any life threatening situation.

What about the non combat personal in the military do they also get a tax exemption, they aren't at the pointy end, I don't think papercuts count as putting their lives on the line.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Speaking to a variety of civvie mates, I consistenty hear "the Navy only has two ships, the Air Force has no planes and the army has old guns etc."
Here's how the Govt can fix this perception on the cheap :D

Navy: Put a 76mm gun on the new OPV's. As far as the general public is concerned, the Navy has 4 combat ships!

Air Force: Reinstate the Macchi's. As far as the general public is concerned the Air Force has fighter jets again! (Nevermind they only carry rockets and dumb bombs, the public wouldn't know the difference).

Army: Buy a dozen light tanks or tracked armed reconaissance vehicles but with a 76mm gun! (Hey the public happily accepted that the Scorpion ARV's were "real" tanks when they replaced the M41 Walker Bulldog's). Seriously though, those Singaporian Primus 155's Howitzers (see post 83) would be useful assets for NZ to have, and they look like a monster tank as far as the general public is concerned.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Gerald Hensley's (Mr H's) memoir is reported in this item from October 2006:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/category/story.cfm?c_id=18&objectid=10406679
It's quite an interesting but brief review by John Armstrong. Had already bought GH's book, am about to start reading it.

Included this "NZDF under change of Government" apt reference.

"The reader may also be disappointed he has nothing to say either about his subsequent lengthy stint as Secretary of Defence, having been reinstated in that post by National only for the new Government to slash spending on an already cash-strapped military." By the way, the new Govt was National.
Err, that's my point about GH, he ain't publically pro-National or pro-Labour, his job was to be neutral and impartial. I'm sure he looked upon National's early 1990's defence cuts in horror as most of us here also did. But recall the times, most western govts were reducing defence spending after the USSR collapsed. The Cold war was over. NZ's had added complications of being billions in debt. But people here explained all this alot better a few months ago.

BTW the next paragraph of John Armstrong's review says:

"In both cases, discretion again appears to have dictated events that are still too fresh and the protagonists still too active for him to comment".

Quote from his 2001 speech posted by Mr C-
"Where others including Australia are spending more we have over the past ten years halved the proportion of our GDP devoted to defence." 10 years before July 2001 included only 1.5 years under Labour and 8.5 years under National.
Again, people here have previously said: by the mid 1990's the National Govt were forced to address the decline in defence and embarked on a re-equipping plan, which had started to be implemented only to then lose office some 2-3 years later. As others have pointed out here previously, Labour then halted the re-equipping plan (except for the Army LAV purchase, that went ahead to stymie criticism of the plans to cancel the F16's and then disband the ACF) causing a further delay and when they resumed a few years later (NZ LTDP 2002) it was pretty much the same as National had intended (except for Project Protector and of course the cutting of the air and naval forces).

The sad reality is, despite Labour rebuilding defence by planning to spend an additional $7.7B over 10 years, the Govt has conceded this still won't lift defence spending over the 1% of gdp mark. So most of us here can see, despite the rhetoric, whether we are pro-Labour or not, that the Govt needs to do better. And why shouldn't we say this here? The Govt is supposed to be accountable to the public. They are meant to serve the public. We live in a free country etc.

Now here's a twist - depending on the sources and the methods to determine defence spending as a % of gdp, some figures some particular years recently are slightly over 1%, some say 1%, some say 0.9% and some say 0.8%.

There was a campaign by prominent peace activists several years ago for the Labour Govt to reduce defence spending to 0.8% of gdp. (When I manage to dig up the source of this claim again, I'll post it here if anyone is interested).

So is this a coincidence? If this is true I wonder where you stand Mr.I? Previous Labour generations maintained a balanced and effective defence force - do you stand with them? Or do you stand with the far left activist factions that seems to be exerting alot of influence in the Party? Or would you not really know because free expression has been stamped out within the Party and one must conform (including the right factions, they have their heads down etc).

Some interesting reading here from an old Scoop article. Yes there is a politcial bias to the Right & National here, but the message has some interesting sentiments http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0206/S00057.htm

And back to the %gdp issue again, again here's some interesting reading from David Farrar (and yes his National political bias is well known but the figures he presents is interesting). The link is http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2004/08 but because the article is mixed in with his other writing, here is his commentary


Not fit to fight
Tuesday, August 31st, 2004

The Government should be ashamed that five years into its term, the Defence Force annual report reveals the Armed Forces are “not fit to fight”.

Apart from effectively abolishing the air force, the long litany of shortages in almost every area is something they must take accountability for.

As a percentage of GDP New Zealand now spends less than 1%, only 0.8%.

And yes National did cut defence spending also, but that was well over a decade ago, and because NZ was faced with a huge $5 billion deficit. Now that we have a $6 billion surplus there is simply no excuse. From 1995 to 2000 expenditure stayed stable at 1.1%, and has reduced to 0.8% since.

To give some idea of how low 0.8% is, here’s a list of the entire OECD:

Turkey 5.3%
Greece 4.3%
United States 3.9%
Australia 2.8%
South Korea 2.7%
France 2.6%
United Kingdom 2.4%
Portugal 2.3%
Czech Republic 2.1%
Sweden 2.1%
Finland 2.0%
Italy 1.9%
Norway 1.9%
Slovakia 1.9%
Hungary 1.8%
Poland 1.7%
Denmark 1.6%
Netherlands 1.6%
Germany 1.5%
Belgium 1.3%
Spain 1.2%
Canada 1.1%
Japan 1.0%
Switzerland 1.0%
Ireland 0.9%
Luxembourg 0.9%
Mexico 0.9%
Austria 0.8%
New Zealand 0.8%
Iceland 0.0%

Yep the only country that spends less than New Zealand is Iceland. They don’t have armed forces - they just pay the US to protect them (seriously). Maybe we should just do the same.

Most infromed commentary I have seen is that we should be at around the 1.5% of GDP level. Now the difference between 0.8% and even 1.1% (where we were in 2000) may not seem much but it is a whopping $420 million a year which would make a huge difference to the safety and ability of our defence force personnel.
 
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