NZDF General discussion thread

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
Yes - if NZ wants to be at all effective in the region it needs to boost spending, so hopefully we'll see the following (refer link) followed through with, along with ALL projects currently on LTDP...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/4235298a6005.html
Actually here's full text, as they tend to remove articles at times quite quickly...

The Defence Force has unveiled an ambitious $1 billion shopping list for more ships, planes, a new fleet of armoured trucks and new weapons over the next decade.


The proposals could add $1 billion to the extra $1.3 billion committed to new military hardware under the 2002-2012 long-term defence plan.

Most of that has or is being spent on new ships, helicopters, aircraft upgrades and army equipment ordered or due to come into service in the next five years.

But tentative plans for more expensive acquisitions - beyond what has already been approved - were outlined at a Defence Industry forum in Wellington.

But Defence Minister Phil Goff says the Government is yet to commit to the plan.

The navy, which will have seven new ships by next year and is also getting $500 million to upgrade its two Anzac frigates, has signalled it needs to replace its tanker, the Endeavour and the Manawanui dive support ship by about 2016.

The air force wants to buy a new fleet of transport aircraft to replace its old C-130 Hercules in about 10 years time.

Defence sources suggest new aircraft could cost between $500 million and $1 billion.

That is on top of the $900 million being spent on new helicopters, $400 million on modernising the P3 Orion patrol aircraft and the estimated $330 million to be spent on Ohakea air base.

The army has begun planning to replace its trucks at an estimated $500 million.

Drawing on the experience of forces now operating in Afghanistan army planners say its new trucks will need to be fitted with armoured cabs.

The army has a long list of "minor" projects under way including the purchase of grenade machine guns to give the infantry more firepower, replace its light machine guns, upgrade its standard-issue Steyr infantry rifles and purchase combat shotguns.

It is also planning to equip its infantry with unmanned aerial vehicles - small aircraft fitted with cameras and other sensors.

Assistant chief of general staff Phil Collett added that the army was also working on a "soldier modernisation programme" to give all soldiers world class clothing, packs, personal protection, night vision and communication equipment.

A sophisticated $83 million intelligence, reconnaissance and communications system - designed to give commanders and troops much more information about their location, the position of other forces and likely threats - is also on the army's shopping list in the next five years.

Assistant chief of navy Captain Fred Keating outlined the navy's plans for upgrading its two frigates. They are presently being fitted with new mini-Typhoon automatic guns to give them protection against fast inshore attack craft.

Its Phalanx gatling guns, designed as a last line of defence against missile attack, are also being upgraded and modified at a cost of $25 million to enable them to hit surface targets.

From 2012 the navy is set to begin a $434 million programme to upgrade combat systems on the ships.
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
To be honest, if New Zealand really wanted to be a regoinal military power they will seriously need to increase their defense budget. They will need to buy fighter jets, tactical bombers, more helicopters and transports then they have. They will need a sizeable force of tanks, APC, artillery and attack helicopters. Their Navy will need aircraft carriers, cruisers, destroyers, more frigates and nuclear submarines. They should increase the size of their military from around 8,700 to around 100,000 and maybe even a few nukes to throw in. But of course someone will replie to my comment and say that their are no threats out their and New Zealand does not need any of this, and their Government under control by the Labour from Helin Clark thinks the same as well. But something like that is what New Zealand will need if they really want to become a military power. But no one here or in the New Zealand Government wants New Zealand to become a military power and so they will remain a small isolated country with a small military and they will never become a major or a regional military power.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
No, you're wrong.
Someone will not say that the threats are not there but that your ideas are complete rubbish and as far away from reality as one can get... :rolleyes:
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
But no one here or in the New Zealand Government wants New Zealand to become a military power and so they will remain a small isolated country with a small military and they will never become a major or a regional military power.
There are threats out there but "your ideas are complete rubbish and as far away from reality as one can get..." (Thanks Waylander)

New Zealand has never pretended to be a major military power and no one, from Godley to Jellicoe, nor any senior flag rank person or politician since, has ever suggested we could be. New Zealand, in the event of major hostilities, has only ever been expected to provide for local defence and our contribution to anything beyond that was, and is, high quality ground forces. Proper maintainance of those attributes, long identified by this nation in the past, make NZ a regional power in the South Pacific. The problem is that New Zealand's strategic perspective has shrunk and those abilities have reduced in accordance.

It might be instructive to look at why NZ's perspective of the world in defence terms has shrunk. I suspect (and I freely admit that I have no evidence to support this) it has something to do with our history as part of the British Empire and the nature of our coming to independence, an evolutionary process, and not fully taking on certain functions of higher military thought that were once the sole responsibility of London.
We still seem to be stuck on looking at operational and South Pacific issues, as we always have, but not looking at the broader strategic problems surrounding the employment of NZ's forces at an operational level unless we are prompted to do so by another power or international crises that forces our hand.
We lack, it seems, strategic initiative of thought.
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Not wanting to go through all the posts, but has someone already suggested a greater integration of the New Zealand and Australian Defence Ministries?
Australia is having recruiting problems, and I know that a fair few Kiwis serve in the ADF, but a greater degree of integration may further increase viability of both forces.

Maybe even a South Pacific Alliance Treaty Organisation?
 

F-15 Eagle

New Member
Look this whole thread is about what can New Zealand do to become a regional military power and I said thats what I think they need to become that. As I said earlier people will say this is rubbish and that is what stops New Zealand from becoming a regional military power and as long as people say this is rubbish nothing will ever change!
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
What could New Zealand do be a Regional power and ultimately a Superpower?

First:

The All Blacks must win the World Cup in 2011 :)

Second:

They should purchase the very best slingshots

Third:

Practice makes perfect.


I hope this is of use - and please, no more reconditioned All Blacks.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Look this whole thread is about what can New Zealand do to become a regional military power and I said thats what I think they need to become that. As I said earlier people will say this is rubbish and that is what stops New Zealand from becoming a regional military power and as long as people say this is rubbish nothing will ever change!
If this helps, if you look back at previous posts people correctly pointed out that NZ is already a regional power in the South Pacific area (second to Australia), that is if we discount any US Navy presence (or passing French warships or subs etc). But if NZ were to be a significant regional power in this SP area, able to sustain operations be that deterrance or peace enforcement etc, then a mini US armed forces scenario isn't needed, simply better logistical support, a few more patrol frigates or boats perhaps, the ability to deploy land assets quickly by air and sea and the ability to sustain long range air patrols and survellience, with appropriate stand off weaponry etc, would be useful as a start - would you agree (or not)? However bearing in mind NZ (and Australia) would prefer to see the SP "demilitarised" as much as practically possible, one would have to tread carefully (or take that into account) when proposing upgrading NZ capabilities. For example setting up major forward operating bases, although possibly practical from most people's perspectives here, would not necessarily be politically acceptable to most of the SP nations including NZ, in these times of peace. In the event of a major war then of course this would probably happen (as it did in WWII) so the trick here is to have the right capabilities that can be deployed in an expeditionary capacity if required. Any thoughts on that etc?
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Look this whole thread is about what can New Zealand do to become a regional military power and I said thats what I think they need to become that. As I said earlier people will say this is rubbish and that is what stops New Zealand from becoming a regional military power and as long as people say this is rubbish nothing will ever change!
I'm not saying its rubbish, but the reality is that NZ is not even capable of securing trade routes for its own commercial well being since it doesn't have a mine hunter vessel that is able to quickly respond to mining of these trade routes. In the RAN thread I suggested that it may be a good idea for Australia to have several high-speed Cats in multi-role configuration that are able to deploy either in the regional expeditionary role, or trade-lane security role. A vessel like that would be ideal for NZ because it is very regional in terms of performance, it covers several capability gaps, and can even offer inter-island NZ defence services logistic capability. Given the scale of South Pacific, a vessel that is able to rapidly deploy a couple of NZ companies would represent a real regional security force. A vessel that can rapidly provide mine-hunting service to an unheralded threat would also gain much respect because many SP entities are wholly dependent on sea route security and even one sinking from mines can be disastrous to island economies.
RNZN Canterbury is not in the class to offer all these capabilities, although extremely valuable in other roles.
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
What if there isn't a change of Government?

The NZDF might very well look like this by November 2017.

New Zealand Army
1 Regular Force Peacekeeping Battalion Group
1 Territorial Force Humanitarian Assistance Battalion Group
1 SAS Squadron
(Only 50 LAV3's in operational service the remainder canabalised to keep the operational ones going. RF Battalion Group is broken down (no pun intended) into 4 Company Groups so as to meet the new policy of been able to maintain a Company Group on a low level Peacekeeping Mission for 6 months. Territorial Force uniformed non-combatants)

New Zealand Coastguard Service
1 Sealift Ship
2 OPV
4 IPV
1 Support Vessel (Diving, Survey)
(Frigates mothballed, not replaced, no need for the Endevour replacement. The Manawanui and the Resolution replaced with an IPV based Support Vessel. The Sealift ship leased to the UN and operated by an International crew)

New Zealand Air Corps
3 C-130H
4 Q300 Coastal Patrol / Light Tansport
5 A109 LUH
6 NH-90
1 B-757
(Anzac's sold, Seasprites in storage awaiting disposal. Only 3 airworthy C-130's in service. Will be replaced by 2 A400 aircraft in 2020. Orions replaced with the Q300's. Sole airworthy B-757 upgraded post 2020. 2 NH-90's leased to UN indefinately with international crew.)

In my view this is not an impossibility. The NZDF is more than likely to look like this in 10 years than what "we" think.

I hope you don't find this a bit depressing.
 

recce.k1

Well-Known Member
Actually, yes I do find that a bit depressing!

The scenario you've outlined is not unrealistic ... so what factors could make this come about?

1. Economic?

Do you think a recession could cause a cash strapped govt to downgrade the NZDF? If recession, what would cause it? A major (nuke) war in the middle-east or India/Pakistan etc causing oil prices to skyrocket as major oil refinerys are wiped out etc?

China/India - competition for resources to maintain their growing economies sees proxy wars escalate in unstable regions affecting NZ's export markets (or ability to export safely etc)?

Environmental/climate change etc?

A NZ-China FTA actually assists NZ's economy and results in closer ties, but at the expense of trade and relations with Australia and the USA (our two current biggest trading markets)? NZ withdraws from traditional defence and intelligence pacts in the guise of "foreign policy independance"?

2. Political?

MMP: left wing coalition govt's forcing Labour to adopt a purely peace keeping type Defence Force (as the Greens and former Alliance Parties advocate)?

Helen Clark as PM or President of the Peoples Democratic Republic of NZ in 2017?

Helen Clark or her successor manages to purge the right wing faction in Labour completely and tops up the party's List ranks of yet even more academics, unionists, activist lawyers and social engineering types. Meanwhile Mr Hager and a new generation of activist "research journalists" continually dig up dirt on the National Party resulting in public loss of confidence in the Centre Right parties and no-one of any substance wants to join them now seeing they don't want their private lives intruded into. The Labour-Lite tag finally sticks to National but the activists leave rightwing ACT Party alone as that manges to fragment further the centre-right vote. The revamped Social Democrat Labour Party does whatever it wants to the NZDF as the opposition are too pathetic to say anything articulate?

NZ-Indigenous relations de-stablising, economic sabotage results, NZ isn't as affluent and govt cuts costs as the economy nose-dives?

3. International Relations

How would Australia and the USA react do you think?

To counter a possible run down of the NZDF, what about the geopolitical situation in the South Pacific as China, Taiwan(???) and the USA (and EU) step up competing influence etc?
 
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old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
The NZDF might very well look like this by November 2017.

New Zealand Army
1 Regular Force Peacekeeping Battalion Group
1 Territorial Force Humanitarian Assistance Battalion Group
1 SAS Squadron
(Only 50 LAV3's in operational service the remainder canabalised to keep the operational ones going. RF Battalion Group is broken down (no pun intended) into 4 Company Groups so as to meet the new policy of been able to maintain a Company Group on a low level Peacekeeping Mission for 6 months. Territorial Force uniformed non-combatants)

New Zealand Coastguard Service
1 Sealift Ship
2 OPV
4 IPV
1 Support Vessel (Diving, Survey)
(Frigates mothballed, not replaced, no need for the Endevour replacement. The Manawanui and the Resolution replaced with an IPV based Support Vessel. The Sealift ship leased to the UN and operated by an International crew)

New Zealand Air Corps
3 C-130H
4 Q300 Coastal Patrol / Light Tansport
5 A109 LUH
6 NH-90
1 B-757
(Anzac's sold, Seasprites in storage awaiting disposal. Only 3 airworthy C-130's in service. Will be replaced by 2 A400 aircraft in 2020. Orions replaced with the Q300's. Sole airworthy B-757 upgraded post 2020. 2 NH-90's leased to UN indefinately with international crew.)

In my view this is not an impossibility. The NZDF is more than likely to look like this in 10 years than what "we" think.

I hope you don't find this a bit depressing.


:shudder ....the Haka seen as to aggressive, to be replaced with lae ,and maori kiss ceremony....:shudder
 

MrConservative

Super Moderator
Staff member
Actually, yes I do find that a bit depressing!

The scenario you've outlined is not unrealistic ... so what factors could make this come about?

1. Economic?

Do you think a recession could cause a cash strapped govt to downgrade the NZDF? If recession, what would cause it? A major (nuke) war in the middle-east or India/Pakistan etc causing oil prices to skyrocket as major oil refinerys are wiped out etc?

China/India - competition for resources to maintain their growing economies sees proxy wars escalate in unstable regions affecting NZ's export markets (or ability to export safely etc)?

Environmental/climate change etc?

A NZ-China FTA actually assists NZ's economy and results in closer ties, but at the expense of trade and relations with Australia and the USA (our two current biggest trading markets)? NZ withdraws from traditional defence and intelligence pacts in the guise of "foreign policy independance"?

2. Political?

MMP: left wing coalition govt's forcing Labour to adopt a purely peace keeping type Defence Force (as the Greens and former Alliance Parties advocate)?

Helen Clark as PM or President of the Peoples Democratic Republic of NZ in 2017?

Helen Clark or her successor manages to purge the right wing faction in Labour completely and tops up the party's List ranks of yet even more academics, unionists, activist lawyers and social engineering types. Meanwhile Mr Hager and a new generation of activist "research journalists" continually dig up dirt on the National Party resulting in public loss of confidence in the Centre Right parties and no-one of any substance wants to join them now seeing they don't want their private lives intruded into. The Labour-Lite tag finally sticks to National but the activists leave rightwing ACT Party alone as that manges to fragment further the centre-right vote. The revamped Social Democrat Labour Party does whatever it wants to the NZDF as the opposition are too pathetic to say anything articulate?

NZ-Indigenous relations de-stablising, economic sabotage results, NZ isn't as affluent and govt cuts costs as the economy nose-dives?

3. International Relations

How would Australia and the USA react do you think?

To counter a possible run down of the NZDF, what about the geopolitical situation in the South Pacific as China, Taiwan(???) and the USA (and EU) step up competing influence etc?
Probably a combination of all three factors Reccek1, but essentially because the country is collectively too self absorbed, geo-politically naive, has lacked visionary leadership for decades, and is far too complacent. The 2017 NZDF prediction is based on the maintainence of current trends. If New Zealand doesn't socio-politically snap out of its malaise by 2017 it wont have the collective energy left to do much about anything. Optimistically though I think the "snap" moment is not to far off. By the way - the Haka. Its just an over-exposed parody that is killing the positive essence of Maoridom.
 

KiwiRob

Well-Known Member
Optimistically though I think the "snap" moment is not to far off. By the way - the Haka. Its just an over-exposed parody that is killing the positive essence of Maoridom.
I think the snap will happen next election, I believe NZ has had enought of Helen and PC politics, that's the best description of the haka I have heard to date and I completely agree with you, I hate it and cringe whenever I see one performed.
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
I think the snap will happen next election, I believe NZ has had enought of Helen and PC politics,
But will National be any better?


that's the best description of the haka I have heard to date and I completely agree with you, I hate it and cringe whenever I see one performed.
I remember a time when the Haka was not performed Every. Single. Match or Opportunity, and actually meant something.
 

old faithful

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
But will National be any better?




I remember a time when the Haka was not performed Every. Single. Match or Opportunity, and actually meant something.
i hope for the sake of NZ,s proud military history. that the "snap" is very soon. I find it hard to believe that only 5 A109,s were ordered. Was expecting to hear 8-10.
as for the haka. Its sounds as though you feel its been de-valued? A bit like playing the national anthem before club games, was reserved for internationals in the past...
I think its an attempt by the pollies to stir up national pride...a bit yank,and unnessasary.
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
i hope for the sake of NZ,s proud military history. that the "snap" is very soon. I find it hard to believe that only 5 A109,s were ordered. Was expecting to hear 8-10.
I was expecting six, but I suspect that cabinet figured they were doing ok with five Sioux ,so five new A109 would do the job better. It goes without saying that there is no flexibility when the helicopters get older, so we had better hope that more are ordered.



as for the haka. Its sounds as though you feel its been de-valued? A bit like playing the national anthem before club games, was reserved for internationals in the past...
I think its an attempt by the pollies to stir up national pride...a bit yank,and unnessasary.
Yeah, familiarity breeds contempt.
 

Stuart Mackey

New Member
Maybe not better but different, Labour has done some good things, the economy is doing well but they have really screwed the pooch in others like education, NCEA is a joke and health.
Oh, don't get me wrong, my only real beef with Labour on defence is that I feel that they are operating from a false premise, strategically. I do feel that the Nats have a good point on their contract practices as evidenced with the NH90 and the A109 purchases.
The issue with the Nats, historically, seems to be that they just don't care enough about defence to put any thought into actually implementing a rational policy at any level.
 
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