Australian Army Discussions and Updates

FutureTank

Banned Member
Hi guys

I am not baging the tiger i think it is a good suit for the ADF.

But i was under the impression that they did want the apache helo but like most thing in defence it comes down to price .

Eurotiger can do most things that thay wanted but being cheaper we might get more air frames when we get this lot going.

I was surprized that they did not go for the huey cobra as us marines still use them

From memory arnt they having trouble adapting it to fire hellfire misiles as being the first to use them on the tiger helos ?

REGARDS
TOM
Hi Tom,

From what I heard the ADF is very happy with the Eurocopter Tiger. Its actually hard to compare it to the Apache because of the time that separates their design, almost two decades.

What this means is that the Tiger actually has reduced service resource needs then the AH-64, so its not just cheaper, but cheaper to operate, which is very important for the Army.

The Tiger actually follows basic design thinking of the Cobra in terms of fuselage, but introduces considerable improvements made possible by nearly 40 years of advances in technologies. USMC have a problem operating the larger AH-64s off the Navy ships, so have to keep the AH-1s. Luckily there are lots airframes available to back up the fleet maintenance.

I think any helicopter that satisfies the French and the Germans has to be a pretty good design.

Cheers
Greg
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
From memory arnt they having trouble adapting it to fire hellfire misiles as being the first to use them on the tiger helos ?
TOM
Tom,

I could be wrong, but I think the Australian Army intends to be the first to become OPERATIONAL users of Hellfire II missiles on the Tiger. The missiles were in fact tested in Europe by Eurocopter, as I'm sure I saw a news item to that effect a couple of years ago (?).

Greg
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Hi Tom,

From what I heard the ADF is very happy with the Eurocopter Tiger. Its actually hard to compare it to the Apache because of the time that separates their design, almost two decades.
They've also got two different roles - tactical battlefield helo vs ARH. You can't really compare them. I've never actually heard that the ADF was pushing for the Apache - and these things usually come out in the media at the first justifiable opportunity.

The USMC use their Cobras quite differently to the Army's Apaches, but they're not quite the same as the Tiger's ARH role either, they seem to use them more for CAS. I've actually been on Exercise with the USMC and been on the receiving end of (simulated) Cobra attack runs, they're not much fun at all.

Though I did 'shoot' one down with a 66 LAW - sitting duck at about 30m. :D I was really annoyed, the umpire was only about 5m but had his back turned, didn't see it an refused to award me the kill. :p:
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
Though I did 'shoot' one down with a 66 LAW - sitting duck at about 30m. :D I was really annoyed, the umpire was only about 5m but had his back turned, didn't see it an refused to award me the kill. :p:
Well, you still had your personal weapon to shoot the umpire...:rolleyes:
Do you get point for that? :D
Greg
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Well, you still had your personal weapon to shoot the umpire...:rolleyes:
Do you get point for that? :D
Greg
I think I would have gotten a one-way MP escort to the cells for that!!

Besides, I kinda liked that umpire. Our (clueless) OC was walking around through our defensive position while the rest of us were cowering in our pits in between bombardments. The umpire said "Sir, you do realise this area's being bombarded and you can become a casualty?" - the OC ignored him, so the umpire said to us (only a few metres away as I said) "Right. First chance I get I'm going to kill that c--- off."

And he did. :p
 

FutureTank

Banned Member
I think I would have gotten a one-way MP escort to the cells for that!!

Besides, I kinda liked that umpire. Our (clueless) OC was walking around through our defensive position while the rest of us were cowering in our pits in between bombardments. The umpire said "Sir, you do realise this area's being bombarded and you can become a casualty?" - the OC ignored him, so the umpire said to us (only a few metres away as I said) "Right. First chance I get I'm going to kill that c--- off."

And he did. :p
And the Cobra was flying through the bombardment? Or was that at a different time?
In any case, they deserved to get shot down if they couldn't see a LAW gunner from 30m away. :(
 

McTaff

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The real test for the Tiger will be in the network-centric area. They are pretty happy with everything, they are just looking for ways to saturate the info gathering and see if they can maximise how it can identify, target and phone threats home.

Things were sounding pretty good, but I'm a bit too far away from the boys who do the stuff to know anything thats unclassified and recent.
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
And the Cobra was flying through the bombardment? Or was that at a different time?
In any case, they deserved to get shot down if they couldn't see a LAW gunner from 30m away. :(
It was actually a pair of Cobras - I never saw a single Cobra the entire three weeks I don't think. They always fly in pairs and attack line-astern.

I don't remember if it was before or after the bombardment to be honest - they threw absolutely everything at us. Mortars, Cobras, artillery, dismounted infantry, Abrams columns, the works. We shot them all to hell - thereby proving absolutely nothing except that the defence has a massive advantage when they know they're not actually taking live fire. Suppression doesn't work much in exercises.

But basically what happened with the Cobras was that we were dug into this company position on a slight rise with what I'd call moderate tree cover. The Cobras did their attack runs in line-astern and (due to lack of fire orders) we did nothing for the first two runs except cower in our pits. I'd have expected them to stand off and just pulverise us, but that's probably not ballsy enough for the USMC so they actually did attack runs, flying in to point-blank range then breaking away, exposing their bellies to the concentrated fire of a dug-in infantry company with DFSW support. It was during one of those that the 66 incident happened. My pit was extremely well camouflaged behind a log, I let the first one pass overhead, popped up and the second one was a near zero-deflection shot from about 30m away. It was already focusing beyond me so it really was a sitting duck.

But of course the umpire didn't see. Eventually our officers got their act together enough to give fire orders and the next time they attacked they got hit by about 100 Steyrs, 20 Minimis and 4 MAG-58s. The entire position was just blazing away. After that we heard over the umpire's radio (having the umpire 5m away was the best thing to happen to me on that ex) that they'd taken groundfire, were damaged and were ordered to disengage.

The laurels were about even at the end of the ex. We won that one, but more than once we were driving along quite happily in our 2/14th M113s when a pair of Cobras popped up from behind a nearby treeline and annihilated us. They even somehow managed to jam our radios a few seconds beforehand - not sure if it was the Cobras, I don't know how they'd jam us. But something definitely did, and it was coordinated.

Anyway, it was EX CROC '03 and it was the best Ex I've ever been on, it was awesome. :) We were a free-flowing enemy in Shoalwater falling back in a delaying action before a US advance. We got them a few times, they got us a few times, but all in all we dominated them and they knew it. One incident widely reported in an interview with our commander (who was the CO of 2 Cav) described how a flight of two Sea Knights swooped in to land in a field and discharge a platoon of Marines. The Marines jumped out, and looked up straight into the barrels of a troop of four Leopards sitting under some trees no more than 70m away. The Leopard crews were almost as bemused as the Marines were.

The Marines popped smoke grenades, ran back into their choppers like startled gazelles and took off again.

In fact our Navy (including one of the Collins and frigate) wiped them out before the ex even started - our naval commander saw them jumping the gun and breaking the rules, and used the opportunity to attack pre-emptively. It just went downhill for them from there. 9RQR's recon platoon trekked through Shoalwater's bush for two days and called in an arty fire mission on their logistics base. My section ambushed and kidnapped the American commander and his 2i/c in their Humvee one night.

I could go on for days about it, so don't give me the chance. :) I'll just post a couple of photos and shut up. Forgive the photo quality, I didn't have a digital camera in those days, just a cheap wide-angle film camera.

http://pics.livejournal.com/firstashore/pic/0008ez3r
Cobra flying over the position - it was actually a lot lower than it looks here, blame the wide-angle lens

http://pics.livejournal.com/firstashore/pic/0008f3d2
MAG-58 gunner and riflemen open up as a Cobra breaks away - again, the Cobra was actually a lot closer

http://pics.livejournal.com/firstashore/pic/0008gpfd
The USMC meets 9RQR. :D

http://pics.livejournal.com/firstashore/pic/0008htwh
Deploying in extended line just prior to a contact


Wow, got really off-topic on that one huh? Oh well, it is the Australian Army discussion thread!
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Do I understand it right that one primary role for the Aussie Tigers is Recce?
I wonder why the Australian MoD didn't opted for the mast?
 

RubiconNZ

The Wanderer
Australian commando dies in Taliban battle

November 23, 2007 - 5:50PM
Advertisement

The father of an Australian commando killed in a battle with Taliban forces in Afghanistan says he is "very proud" of his son.

Private Luke Worsley, 26, of the 4RAR commando unit in Sydney, was killed in action about 7.30am (AEDT) today, Defence force chief Angus Houston said.

His father, John Worsley, said the family was distraught at the loss but described his son as a "brave soldier".

"We're holding up as good as possible," he said.

"He was a brave soldier and we lost him in the line of duty and there's nothing more I can really say to that.

"Of course it's immensely sad and we're terribly upset about it but we're very proud of him as a soldier."

Speaking from his home in Windsor, in north-western Sydney, Mr Worsley said the family was being comforted by an army chaplain, and had no further comment to make.

Private Worsley is the third Australian combat death in Afghanistan in the past two months.

Defence force chief Angus Houston announced Private Worsley's death at a press conference this afternoon.

"It is with deep sorrow that I inform you of the death of Australian solder Private Luke Worsley, 26, from Sydney, was killed in action about 7.30am Canberra time," Air Chief Marshal Houston told reporters.

"He was taking part in a planned and deliberate attack by our forces against Taliban leaders and bomb-makers in the Oruzgan province."

He said Private Worsley was "greatly respected".

"Private Worsley was a greatly respected soldier and he will be sorely missed", he said.

Air Chief Marshal Houston said no other troops were killed in the battle, during which Australian soldiers "acquitted themselves magnificently".

He said the Australian troops were after the makers of weapons called IED [Improvised Explosive Device] bombs, which were indiscriminate.

"We will continue to go after the bomb makers," he said.

He said the Taliban sustained heavy casualties during the engagement, including a number killed and a substantial number detained.

"If further progress is to be made against the Taliban these types of operations remain essential," he said.

"Despite the tragic death of Private Worsley the job of helping the people of Afghanistan continues."

It was Private Worsley second tour of duty to Afghanistan, and the had also served in East Timor in 2003.

He qualified as a commando in 2004.

"He was one of our finest," Air Chief Marshal Houston said.

"I'm told his dedication and enthusiasm for soldiering was an inspiration to those around them."

The latest incident comes after Australian trooper David Pearce died after the light-armoured vehicle he was driving in southern Afghanistan detonated what is believed to be a home-made bomb buried in a dirt road.

That same week Australian soldiers in Iraq narrowly avoided injury after a bomb was detonated under their infantry vehicle.

SAS Sergeant Matthew Locke was shot dead by the Taliban on October 25 and on November 3, Sergeant Michael Lyddiard was injured by a bomb he was trying to defuse.

The Age
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I feel very sad that Australian diggers are taking heavier casualties in Afghanistan (including three killed in the last two months) and I feel great sympathy for their families. Unfortunately it is probably inevitable, given that Oz Special Forces (Commandos and SAS) are actively seeking out Taliban strongholds at the present time, that further casualties will follow.

I admire the way that the families of Private John Worsley and the other two diggers killed recently have responded to their tragedy. All were brave soldiers and their families have demonstrated similar courage and resolve.

Tas
 

Navor86

Member
Is there any new Intel available concerning the Replacement of the AuSteyr F88? Is there some contest ongoing and how does the AICW fits in the concept? As 10 kg Weapon I personally think that it will go the same line as the OICW,so just parts will maybe adapted
 

Brycec

New Member
Do I understand it right that one primary role for the Aussie Tigers is Recce?
I wonder why the Australian MoD didn't opted for the mast?
My understanding is that while Australia calls its Tigers role Armed Recon, it actually has all of the gear that Germany and France has on their attack helicopter versions, but also packs some extra gear, like the Hellfire missiles. Honestly, I believe the Australian "recon," version is really just an upgraded attack tiger.

Somebody else could probably contribute more.
 
Last edited:

Brycec

New Member
Is there any new Intel available concerning the Replacement of the AuSteyr F88? Is there some contest ongoing and how does the AICW fits in the concept? As 10 kg Weapon I personally think that it will go the same line as the OICW,so just parts will maybe adapted
That's a good question. What happened to the AICW?... that clunky piece of crap.
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
My understanding is that while Australia calls its Tigers role Armed Recon, it actually has all of the gear that Germany and France has on their attack helicopter versions, but also packs some extra gear, like the Hellfire missiles. Honestly, I believe the Australian "recon," version is really just an upgraded attack tiger.

Somebody else could probably contribute more.
It's not QUITE an upgraded attack Tiger - there are, broadly speaking, two versions of the Tiger, one is fire support/ARH and the other (the German one) is dedicated anti-tank.

The German model doesn't even have a cannon. The ARH model is based on the French HAP fire support version. You're right that the Hellfires are 'extra gear' but the French model can be upgraded to fire Trigat. So it's not really a case of the ARH is 'upgraded' compared to the French model - it's just equipped with different systems.

But you are right - one should not assume that because it's called an "Armed Reconnaissance Helicopter" it's got any less firepower or combat capability. I actually suspect it was at least partly named the ARH for PR reasons - it sounds less violent than "helicopter gunship" or "attack helicopter."

But that still doesn't mean it's in the same class or has the same tactical employment of an Apache.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I am aware that the Australian Tigers are more similar to the French ARHs.

My question was more directed to the armed scout role the chopper is going to fullfill.

In this role IMHO a mast is an advantage. As a scout over possible hostile terrain one doesn't want to expose hisself more than needed.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
It's not QUITE an upgraded attack Tiger - there are, broadly speaking, two versions of the Tiger, one is fire support/ARH and the other (the German one) is dedicated anti-tank.

The German model doesn't even have a cannon. The ARH model is based on the French HAP fire support version. You're right that the Hellfires are 'extra gear' but the French model can be upgraded to fire Trigat. So it's not really a case of the ARH is 'upgraded' compared to the French model - it's just equipped with different systems.....
The French are buying Hellfire for their Tigers -
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2007/FranceSelectsLockheedMartinHellfire.html
 

Simon9

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I am aware that the Australian Tigers are more similar to the French ARHs.

My question was more directed to the armed scout role the chopper is going to fullfill.

In this role IMHO a mast is an advantage. As a scout over possible hostile terrain one doesn't want to expose hisself more than needed.
Waylander,

My comment wasn't directed at you (I know you're aware on the progeny of the ARH!) but at Brycec. :)

In answer to YOUR question, I can only suggest that since the mast-mounted sight is a feature of the UHT model it wasn't included in the ARH. It would make sense for a Tiger in the recon role to have the MMS, but I don't know what effect it has in terms of weight, drag and general performance. Recon is important but in the Australian context range is even more so.

As for Hellfire... well I'll be blowed. Trigat didn't work out huh? What are the Spanish Tigers going with?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
As for Hellfire... well I'll be blowed. Trigat didn't work out huh? What are the Spanish Tigers going with?
Germany is still pursuing Trigat LR (as PARS 3 LR), with 680 missiles ordered 2006 to be delivered from 2010 on.

Spain will mount Spike ER on their Tigers.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Waylander,

My comment wasn't directed at you (I know you're aware on the progeny of the ARH!) but at Brycec. :)

In answer to YOUR question, I can only suggest that since the mast-mounted sight is a feature of the UHT model it wasn't included in the ARH. It would make sense for a Tiger in the recon role to have the MMS, but I don't know what effect it has in terms of weight, drag and general performance. Recon is important but in the Australian context range is even more so.

As for Hellfire... well I'll be blowed. Trigat didn't work out huh? What are the Spanish Tigers going with?
Thanks for that. :)

I forgot to really think about the disadvantages of the mast (drag, weight,...).
I see that for a country like Australia range is quite important.
 
Top