USAF F-15 fleet grounded

[gf0012-aust]

F-15E's during the gulf war hunted down enemy tanks and ground assets at night using its imaging systems.

A lot of that was done by the Orions and other assets with GMTI capability (never given the proper credit for their involvement).

The F-15's primary role at that period was to respond to vectoring instructions unless they were targets of opportunity.

I'd like to see more than a Wiki citation. (and the fact that there are almost no "internet" references available on the role of the Orions and other large GTMI carriers, I don't hold much hope.)

However, bith RAAF and USAF let it slip at one point about the role of the larger non fighter platforms to go IR spotting.

 

[rjmaz1]

Other non wiki sources mentioned that the F-15E's were scud hunting..

what other aircraft had night imaging systems at the time?

F-16?
Hornet?
F-111?

 

[gf0012-aust]

Other non wiki sources mentioned that the F-15E's were scud hunting..

what other aircraft had night imaging systems at the time?

F-16?
Hornet?
F-111?

The Orions + a few other unmentioned non fighter large aircraft were involved with detection. They acted as ident and vectoring assets. They have far more comprehensive onboard GMTI interrogation capability than a F-15.

 

[Grand Danois]

The Orions + a few other unmentioned non fighter large aircraft were involved with detection. They acted as ident and vectoring assets. They have far more comprehensive onboard GTMI interrogation capability than a F-15.

E-6 JSTARS is one. Have read reports (on the net, actually) that it used GMTI to get a picture of Iraqi movements during the dust storm that slowed the advance down during the maneuver phase of OIF.

 

[RubiconNZ]

E-8 JSTARS is one. Have read reports (on the net, actually) that it used GMTI to get a picture of Iraqi movements during the dust storm that slowed the advance down during the maneuver phase of OIF.

Yeah that the was a good article, if its the one I think it is, very informative about the development GMTI. The E8 seems to be an amazing platform it would great to know how good some of it is systems really are. The article also discuss in the writers opinion what seems to be common misconception of Fighters acting in a equal GMTI role.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Yeah that the was a good article, if its the one I think it is, very informative about the development GMTI. The E8 seems to be an amazing platform it would great to know how good some of it is systems really are. The article also discuss in the writers opinion what seems to be common misconception of Fighters acting in a equal GMTI role.

They also had Compass and Rivet assets in play....

 

[rjmaz1]

They also had Compass and Rivet assets in play....

So none of these assets actually took out the targets themselves?

So my original post regarding the F-15E taking out the ground targets at night was true...

So the F-35's proposed role is exactly what the F-15E was doing in the Gulf War.

The F-35 can recieve targetting information from non fighter large aircraft just like the F-15E's did.

The F-35's will be able to perform the F-15E's role perfectly, the extra performance of the F-22 is not required to perform the F-15E's role. The F-22's strike capability will be used in the form of the F-117's precision strike capability, as the F-22 can hit targets no other aircraft can, just like the F-117 once did.

I dont know why people are suggesting the FB-22 is the F-15E replacement..The FB-22 would be performing a completely different role to the F-15E. The proposed FB-22 would have twice the range of the F-15E. Performance wise the F-35 is the most similar to the F-15E (excluding stealth)

 

[gf0012-aust]

So none of these assets actually took out the targets themselves?

So my original post regarding the F-15E taking out the ground targets at night was true...

err, lets not go through you being a smart arse again.

we're talking about spotting the shots.

the F-15's didn't go out and do the entire job.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The F-35's will be able to perform the F-15E's role perfectly, the extra performance of the F-22 is not required to perform the F-15E's role. The F-22's strike capability will be used in the form of the F-117's precision strike capability, as the F-22 can hit targets no other aircraft can, just like the F-117 once did.

I dont know why people are suggesting the FB-22 is the F-15E replacement..The FB-22 would be performing a completely different role to the F-15E. The proposed FB-22 would have twice the range of the F-15E. Performance wise the F-35 is the most similar to the F-15E (excluding stealth)

Can you get the basics right.

The F-35's role is not the same as the F-15E - the latter does autonomous deep strike

The FB-22 doesn't exist.

The F-117 in actual fact is an A-117 in mission requirements. The prefix is an accident of history - not of role.

How does the JSF have F-15E performance similarities?
it doesn't in flight performance,
it doesn't in load out,
it doesn't in range

 

[rjmaz1]

The F-35's role is not the same as the F-15E - the latter does autonomous deep strike

The F-35C is designed to do autonomous deep strike on the first day of the war. That is its primary role for the Navy.

The FB-22 doesn't exist.

I said "would" not "will"

How does the JSF have F-15E performance similarities?
it doesn't in flight performance,
it doesn't in load out,
it doesn't in range

Flight performance: It is the same if not in the F-35's favour. Sustained and instantaneous roll/turn rates are higher than the F-16. G loadings are the same.

Loudout: counting internal and external weapons the F-35 has a bigger load out.

Range: F-15E with conformal tanks has the same range as the F-35 on internal fuel. F-15E with three external tanks has the same range as the F-35 with two 480 gallon tanks.

Remember the F-35 is nearly the exact same weight as the F-15 and has bigger internal fuel.

 

[gf0012-aust]

The F-35C is designed to do autonomous deep strike on the first day of the war. That is its primary role for the Navy.

Look at the range. Autonomous means unassisted. Not blistered, not packed, not buddied up. Its not deep strike.

Flight performance: It is the same if not in the F-35's favour. Sustained and instantaneous roll/turn rates are higher than the F-16. G loadings are the same.

I'm not talking about the F-16. It's got less range, less loaded range and is doesn't have the advantage of greater speed to break.

Loudout: counting internal and external weapons the F-35 has a bigger load out.

go external and you impact upon MTO - and that means you effect autonomous range.

Range: F-15E with conformal tanks has the same range as the F-35 on internal fuel.

Nope. The unadulterated F15E according to USAF TO's has close to 30% more range. These are the same TO's they give to rescue crews, so they're accurate.

F-15E with three external tanks has the same range as the F-35 with two 480 gallon tanks.

Funnily enough I have the official TO's for the aircraft - and the F-15E is superior on range. and if you start loading up blisters and external weapons, the C has less autonomy again.

Are you suggesting that my USAF documents are not as accurate as your expertise?

Remember the F-35 is nearly the exact same weight as the F-15 and has bigger internal fuel.

and according to the official TO's that are USAF documents used internally for their rescue and recovery crews, they aren't. there's close to a 20-25% difference.

Somehow I think I'll trust official documents.

 

[rjmaz1]

Look at the range. Autonomous means unassisted. Not blistered, not packed, not buddied up. Its not deep strike.

If the Australian government was briefed that the F-35 in a realistic scenario could hit the same targets as an F-111 then im fairly certain the F-35 will be able to hit targets further away than a strike eagle.

It will be the F-15E that will have to be buddied up. It wont be able survive without escorts. The F-35 can go in unassisted much like the F-117's did. The F-15E's would never have attempted hitting downdown baghdad at the start of the gulf war. F-15E's need speed to survive it cant use its speed unless it dumps it weapons, fuel tanks or hit full burner for extended periods. If any of these are used then thats the end of the mission.

I'm not talking about the F-16. It's got less range, less loaded range and is doesn't have the advantage of greater speed to break.

The F-35 exceeds the F-16's agility which means it also exceeds the F-15s agility. Nearly every performance indicator of the F-16 is greater than the F-15.

The F-15E with its three external tanks is not cleared to 9G and its roll and pitch rates are significantly lower than the F-35.

The F-35 also has a higher cruising speed than the F-15E.

The only thing lacking performance wise is thrust weight ratio. Thrust to weight ratio however is not important unless you are climbing vertical. Thrust to weight ratio has little effect on top speed. Aerodynamics is most important and the F-15E in combat config is as aerodynamic as a brick shithouse. The F-35 internal weapons will assist in its speed and allow it to recover airspeed in a dogfight with its Lower TWR. The SR-71 has a thrust to weight ratio half of the F-15 yet can fly at Mach 3.

So the F-15 will only be superior above Mach 1.5 and when climbing vertical.. Considering 99.99% of the time that is not required so the F-35 is already superior and the production version may be even better.

go external and you impact upon MTO - and that means you effect autonomous range.

You did say maximum loadout which neither the F-15E or F-35 will use. The F-35 will most likely use internal weapons only and the F-15E will only carry a fraction of its warload at the expense of extra fuel.

Are you suggesting that my USAF documents are not as accurate as your expertise?

It all about how you interpret the facts. The user BKNO could turn any fact to suit his argument.

If the F-15E can fly straight to the target and back at optimum altitude it might travel quite far indeed, but not when threats pop up. Just like the F-111, the maximum radius is no where near realistic combat radius. It all depends on the threat environment.

 

[gf0012-aust]

If the Australian government was briefed that the F-35 in a realistic scenario could hit the same targets as an F-111 then im fairly certain the F-35 will be able to hit targets further away than a strike eagle.

And you base this on what? Its not the fighter - its the package. The reality is that the F-15 has better autonomy before the rest of the package forms up.

tell me how the JSF will hit the same targets as an F-111 when there is a weapons issue to consider.

Give me citationed data, not opinion.

It will be the F-15E that will have to be buddied up. It wont be able survive without escorts. The F-35 can go in unassisted much like the F-117's did. The F-15E's would never have attempted hitting downdown baghdad at the start of the gulf war. F-15E's need speed to survive it cant use its speed unless it dumps it weapons, fuel tanks or hit full burner for extended periods. If any of these are used then thats the end of the mission.

Rubbish. The F-117 is a night striker - they can't be used during the day. Stop making things up.

The F-35 exceeds the F-16's agility which means it also exceeds the F-15s agility. Nearly every performance indicator of the F-16 is greater than the F-15.

The F35A exceeds F-16 agility - the others don't as they have stress limitations - stop being selective with your data.

The F-15E with its three external tanks is not cleared to 9G and its roll and pitch rates are significantly lower than the F-35.

I can read Wiki as well as you can. So you intend using 9g stress on the JSF-A? (as you can't on the B or C)

BTW, missiles go through 35g. Guess who wins in the envelope?

The F-35 also has a higher cruising speed than the F-15E.

at 2/3rds the range. fantastic. welcome to the world of logistics

The only thing lacking performance wise is thrust weight ratio. Thrust to weight ratio however is not important unless you are climbing vertical. Thrust to weight ratio has little effect on top speed. Aerodynamics is most important and the F-15E in combat config is as aerodynamic as a brick shithouse. The F-35 internal weapons will assist in its speed and allow it to recover airspeed in a dogfight with its Lower TWR. The SR-71 has a thrust to weight ratio half of the F-15 yet can fly at Mach 3.

So what? its got half the weapons and 2/3rds the range flying clean. Go dirty and you start increasing your signature.

So the F-15 will only be superior above Mach 1.5 and when climbing vertical.. Considering 99.99% of the time that is not required so the F-35 is already superior and the production version may be even better.

and this is based on what empirical evidence?

You did say maximum loadout which neither the F-15E or F-35 will use. The F-35 will most likely use internal weapons only and the F-15E will only carry a fraction of its warload at the expense of extra fuel.

they haven't before, why would they do it now? They're a long range asset for goodness sake

It all about how you interpret the facts. The user BKNO could turn any fact to suit his argument.

No, range, loadout are fixed empiricals. we're not discussing aspirational data.

If the F-15E can fly straight to the target and back at optimum altitude it might travel quite far indeed, but not when threats pop up. Just like the F-111, the maximum radius is no where near realistic combat radius. It all depends on the threat environment.

Absolute rubbish. I know what ferry range and combat range are.
Show me any credible citations that indicate this happening - bearing in mind that the F-15 has more air time, a longer range and can do the avoidance dance without running out of fuel earlier.

The missions are planned to avoid the air defence and likely CAP before they start. ie Its planned before they take off. If a threat does occur, then the F-15 has larger reserves and depending on config still has more missiles to defend itself with spares.

Considering that in all likelihood they will both be going in as part of a package then the battlespace management is handled.

The JSF is not the F-22

 

[jaffo4011]

i dont think that the f35 was ever meant to be a deep insertion attack aircraft.its meant to fulfill the role of the old interdictor strike/close air support type such as the harrier and jaguar in british service.(which,funnily enough it will replace!)

it cant compare to a dedicated strike aircraft such as the f15e or tornado ids.if it did then the british would be directly replacing the tornado with them and not utilising the typhoon as an additional multi role platform.........i would be happy comparing the f35 to the jag and harrier and/or corsair of their time.

dont get me wrong the f35 will no doubt be superb but id rather we had purchased more typhoons(including a maritime version)or even saab gripens at what im sure would have been a lower cost for a similar performance...

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Having a look at the F-15E's combat history it seems the F-35 is designed to perform the exact mission. So in effect it will be its direct replacement.

F-15E's during the gulf war hunted down enemy tanks and ground assets at night using its imaging systems. This is the primary role of the F-35A. F-15E's often performed the interdiction role again this is the primary mission of the F-35C. The F-15C provided air superiority with excellent beyond visual range capability. International customers will be buying the F-35 to provide this exact role just like the F-15C once did.

The F-22 was never designed to replace the F-117 yet it is now replacing it.

Once the non AESA F-15C's retire, what do you think will happen to the squadrons and pilots? You cant just make them redundant, they will transfer across to F-35's as no other aircraft combat aircraft will be in production. So in effect the F-35 will replace the F-15's that the F-22 does not.

Though who knows the F-15E's may stay around another 20 years and be replaced by the F-22's replacement.

How many times do I have to say this the F-35 is not designed to replace the F-15C or the F-15E. The proposed 2018 bomber/FB-22 will replace the F-15E in around 2035. As for the F-15C the U.S. Air Force will have to get more F-22's by 2025, the U.S. Air Force said so themselfs. The F-35 does not have the payload even with external stores to be a good replacement for the F-15E, it is only a light weight fighter to replace the F-16, well the F-15E is a heavy weight fighter. If the U.S. AIR FORCE says they will replace the F-15E with the 2018 bomer or the FB-22, and if they say the F-35 will replace the F-16, F/A-18, AV-8B and A-10, and if they say the F-22 will replace some of the F-15C well keeping the rest, I would take their word for it since the top brass said so themselfs and that they control what the U.S. Air Force gets. Here is what the Air Force should look like:

*183 F-22 Raptor, to replace the rest of the non AESA F-15A-D.
*178 AESA F-15C Eagle with APG-63 V-3 AESA, to remain in service until at least 2025-30.
*224 F-15E Strike Eagle with the APG-63 V-4 AESA, to remain in service until at least 2035.
*460 F/A-18 E/F + 90 EA-18G to replace F-14( which they already did), F/A-18 A/B and EA-6B aircraft.
* 1763 F-35A to replace the F-16 and A-10
* 680 F-35 B/C to replace the F/A-18 C/D and AV-8B.
* 2018 bomer/FB-22 to replace the F-15E in 2035 and to serve with the fleet of B-2, B-52, and B-1B strategic heavy bombers.
* 94 B-52H and 21 B-2 to remain in service past 2040.
* 67 B-1B to remain in service until at least 2035.

The fleet of B-52, B-1B, B-2 will most likely be replaced by the B-3 or next generation of long range strike systems, maybe a long range missile. The FB-22/ 2018 bomber is more of a medium bomber to replace to F-15E and serve along with the B-2, B-1B and B-52H.

 

[rjmaz1]

tell me how the JSF will hit the same targets as an F-111 when there is a weapons issue to consider.

Im not sure how they came to that conclusion.

The reasons probably had something to do with the fact:
The F-111 being limited to the range of its escorts.
The F-111 having to use up all its fuel to evade the enemy using low altitude penetration and/or supersonic dash in all mission profiles.

The F-35 travels subsonic hi-hi-hi.

Slow and steady wins the race.

Rubbish. The F-117 is a night striker - they can't be used during the day. Stop making things up.

All the high risk ground targets are taken out at night regardless of what aircraft is performing the mission. If the F-35 was to perform high value precision strike only it would also only operate at night, however as it is a multi-role aircraft it can perform other missions during the day.

BTW, missiles go through 35g. Guess who wins in the envelope?

The F-15E can perform 35g to avoid missiles?

Lucky that F-35 has stealth so the enemy wont even detect it.

So what? its got half the weapons and 2/3rds the range flying clean. Go dirty and you start increasing your signature.

Thats right. The F-35 has 2/3rds the range when flying clean. Lucky that the F-35 will always flying clean with internal weapons but the F-15E must carry external weapons reducing its range.

and this is based on what empirical evidence?

Check my address that im posting from.

How many times do I have to say this the F-35 is not designed to replace the F-15C or the F-15E.

How many times do I have to say that the F-22 was not designed to replace the F-117.

The proposed 2018 bomber/FB-22 will replace the F-15E in around 2035.

The FB-22 wont see the light of day.

The F-35 does not have the payload even with external stores to be a good replacement for the F-15E, it is only a light weight fighter to replace the F-16, well the F-15E is a heavy weight fighter.

The F-35 has more internal fuel than the F-15, Rafale, Eurofighter and Tornado. The F-35 has DOUBLE the internal fuel of the F-16. The F-35's weight and thrust levels are nearly equal to the F-15 and are significantly higher than the F-16. The F-35 is not a light weight fighter.

The F-35's design is about efficiency. History has proven that combat aircraft always carry external tanks. The F-35 uses this knowledge and increases the internal fuel capacity. 3,000 litres of fuel carried in drop tanks will have 10 times the drag of the same volume of fuel carried internally. The same applies to weapons.

Sure compare a clean F-35 to a clean F-15 and the F-15 will definitely outperform the F-35. However start adding external tanks and weapons to the classic designs and the performance drops off really quick. The external wing tanks on the F-15E dont even increase the aircrafts range they provide fuel to negate the drag produced by the weapons.

If the U.S. AIR FORCE says they will replace the F-15E with the 2018 bomer or the FB-22

You just made that up. No USAF official has said the FB_22 will see the light of day.

* 2018 bomer/FB-22 to replace the F-15E in 2035 and to serve with the fleet of B-2, B-52, and B-1B strategic heavy bombers.

So when the FB-22 doesn't even get built what happens? F-35's that will be in production will replace the F-15E.

The FB-22/ 2018 bomber is more of a medium bomber to replace to F-15E and serve along with the B-2, B-1B and B-52H.

Exactly! the FB-22 is a medium bomber, not a strike fighter like the F-15E. The FB-22 is not the replacement for the F-15E.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Im not sure how they came to that conclusion.

The reasons probably had something to do with the fact:
The F-111 being limited to the range of its escorts.
The F-111 having to use up all its fuel to evade the enemy using low altitude penetration and/or supersonic dash in all mission profiles.

The F-35 travels subsonic hi-hi-hi.

Slow and steady wins the race.


All the high risk ground targets are taken out at night regardless of what aircraft is performing the mission. If the F-35 was to perform high value precision strike only it would also only operate at night, however as it is a multi-role aircraft it can perform other missions during the day.


The F-15E can perform 35g to avoid missiles?

Lucky that F-35 has stealth so the enemy wont even detect it.


Thats right. The F-35 has 2/3rds the range when flying clean. Lucky that the F-35 will always flying clean with internal weapons but the F-15E must carry external weapons reducing its range.

Check my address that im posting from.


The FB-22 wont see the light of day.


The F-35 has more internal fuel than the F-15, Rafale, Eurofighter and Tornado. The F-35 has DOUBLE the internal fuel of the F-16. The F-35's weight and thrust levels are nearly equal to the F-15 and are significantly higher than the F-16. The F-35 is not a light weight fighter


You just made that up. No USAF official has said the FB_22 will see the light of day.


So when the FB-22 doesn't even get built what happens? F-35's that will be in production will replace the F-15E.



Exactly the FB-22 is a medium bomber, not a strike fighter like the F-15E. The FB-22 is not the replacement for the F-15E.

Oh my god where are you getting this, the air force is designing the 2018 bomber, it will be based on the FB-22 or it could be different. You just want the F-35 to replace everything, you have no facts to back this up, you are only basing this off your own opinion. The F-15E can fly at Mach 2.5 well the F-35 does Mach 1.6-1.8 there is no ifs, buts, or what ifs, yes thats right if they want to go Mach 2.5 in an F-15E they will do that if they need to. Theirs no comparision on the payload or range between the F-15E and the F-35 the F-15E has more internal fuel then the F-35. You don't get it, the F-35 will only replace the F-16, F-18, A-10 and AV-8, I looked everywhere and there are no websites saying that the F-35 will replace the F-15E, again you just think the F-35 is a good replacement for the F-15E. You just maid up the fact that there is no 2018 bomber when in reality there really is a new bomber in development. You were also wondering if the F-15E can do 35g, no he was saying air to air missiles can do that not the F-15E. And stealth jets can be shot down, a F-117 was shot in Iraq and in Kossavo(please correct me). And for the last time you are stating all this off your own opinion and not any facts, stop making stuff up and state real facts with citations or websites to prove me wrong.:lul

 

[gf0012-aust]

The F-15E can perform 35g to avoid missiles?

Lucky that F-35 has stealth so the enemy wont even detect it.

The fact that you've commented like this means that you haven't even remotely comprehended why it was said in the first place.

Check my address that im posting from.

Your address means stuff all if your comprehension fails the basic tests of analysis.

BTW, your IP address is the same location as probably 5 other ozzie teenagers in here. If it was coming out of Russell then I'd sit up and pay attention.

Appealing to me or anyone else via an IP address about some form of latent expertise doesn't mean much at all. eg I can give you my AOPA membership number to reinforce and imply some daft notion of expertise - does that mean that I'm a jet pilot?

I recall one of the members who was a TPE and an AME suggesting that you should stop making things up and presenting it as fact. You should pay attention to them on that issue.

 

[F-15 Eagle]

Ok rjmaz1 I did some research on the F-15C, F-15E and F-35 so here it is.

F-15C Eagle

Max speed:
High altitude Mach 2.5+ (1650 mph)
Low altitude Mach 1.2 (900 mph)
Combat radius 1222 miles for interdiction mission
Trust to weight ratio 1.12

F-15E Strike Eagle

Max speed Mach 2.54 (1665 mph)
Range 2400 miles

F-35 Lightning II

Max speed Mach 1.6+ (1200 mph)
Combat radius 600 miles
Trust to Weight ratio:
F-35A 0.89
F-35B 0.92
F-35C 0.81

So rjmaz1 the F-15C and F-15E outdoes the F-35 on range, top speed, and trust to weight ratio. THAT IS WHY THE U.S. AIR FORCE WILL NOT REPLACE THE F-15 WITH THE F-35, OTHER WISE THE AIR FORCE WOULD HAVE CONSIDERED IT BUT THEIR NOT. So a little bit of research helps.

 

[rjmaz1]

Ok rjmaz1 I did some research on the F-15C, F-15E and F-35 so here it is.

F-15C Eagle

Max speed:
High altitude Mach 2.5+ (1650 mph)

Again we have been over this before. The F-15 has never reached Mach 2 in combat let lone Mach 2.5+. If I wanted statistics i could have looked at wikipedia myself.

The F-111 can fly 2000 miles, fly above Mach 2 and carry over 10,000kg of bombs. What you fail to comprehend is that the F-111 can only do one of these per mission. If it carried 10,000kg bombs it can no longer reach its top speed and range. If It flies above Mach 2 it can no longer reach its maximum range or carry its maximum bomb load.

F-111 has a combat radius more than double that of the F-35. Yet the RAAF was told that the F-35 will realistically be able to hit the same targets. Are you saying the RAAF was told lies?

You have to analyze the data provided. The F-15E cant hits its top speed, and reach its maximum combat radius all while carrying its maximum bomb load.

yes thats right if they want to go Mach 2.5 in an F-15E they will do that if they need to.

Not in combat it wont. The F-15E has been in service for nearly 20 years and it hasn't gone anywhere near Mach 2 in combat.

Trust to Weight ratio:
F-35A 0.89

Whats your point of quoting thrust to weight values? Does it give an indication of how fast it can travel?

That thrust ratio of the F-35 is double that of the SR-71. Does that mean the F-35 can travel twice as fast?

Combat radius 600 miles

This was the original JSF requirement for the Air force version. A combat radius of greater than 600 miles is required. I notice you left out the > symbol... The F-35 has currently exceeded all its JSF performance requirements and thats including range.

the air force is designing the 2018 bomber, it will be based on the FB-22 or it could be different.

Nice backpedal. The USAF will not be making any FB-22 strike fighter or light bomber aircraft. Any hope of such an aircraft was destroyed in the quadrennial defense review report in 2006. The only bomber that will be produced will be the B-3. The B-3 will be a heavy bomber and will not be a replacement for the F-15E.

There is no planned replacement for the F-15E. The F-35 will have to replace it by default as it is the only aircraft that is better.

So a little bit of research helps.

Having access to restricted information that hasn't been made public helps

BTW, your IP address is the same location as probably 5 other ozzie teenagers in here.

I think there is only one teenager in this thread. Too bad i am many years past that.