Australian Army Discussions and Updates

[battlensign]

Nope. None of our brigades equate to a "standard" brigade. Whatever that may be exactly. Our guiding philosophy is an "army of two's" at present...

1 Brigade is a mechanised brigade comprised of 2x mechanised battalions (5RAR and 7RAR), that are equipped with their own M113 FOV's. Other arms corps units attached to the Brigade include 1 Armoured Regiment, equipped with Abrams tanks, 2nd Cavalry Regiment equipped with ASLAV recon vehicles (NOT transport assets) and 8/12 Medium Regiment equipped with M198 155mm guns, at present.

3 Brigade is comprised of 1RAR, 2RAR and 3RAR, all of which are light infantry battalions, without any inherent mobility, beyond the Mark 1 boot. Also attached to 3 Brigade is the 4 Field Regiment, currently equipped with L118/9 105mm guns and B Squadron 3/4 Cavalry Regiment , equipped with Bushmaster IMV's. Despite being called a Cavalry Regiment, B Sqn 3/4 Cav is a transport unit, hence it operates the Bushmaster IMV. It does not have a dedicated recon role, unlike 2 Cav Regiment and 2/14 Light Horse Regiment.

7 Brigade is a motorised brigade currently comprising 6RAR, 25/49 RQR and 9 RQR. All of these are light infantry battalions at present, with 6RAR becoming a motorised infantry battalion when fully equipped with it's own integral Bushmaster IMV vehicles. My understanding is it has currently been stripped of most of it's complement of Bushmasters to outfit deployed forces, however the additional ordered Bushmasters will backfill 6RAR and other units...

In future 8/9RAR will be raised as a motorised infantry battalion and equipped with it's own integral Bushmaster IMV vehicles. 6RAR and 8/9RAR will then comprise the battalions for 7 Brigade, whilst 9RQR and 25/49 RQR will be transferred to a different Brigade, (13th Brigade perhaps?) but will no doubt remain light infantry battalions, in their current locations (ie: South East Queensland).

Also attached to 7 Brigade is 1 Field Regiment, equipped with M198 155mm guns and L118/119 105mm guns and the 2/14 Light Horse (Queensland Mounted Infantry) (Reconnaissance) Regiment. This unit is basically a duplicate of 2nd Cavalry Regiment, in terms of structure and role. It is a dedicated recon regiment like 2nd Cavalry Regt and no longer has a transport role.

4RAR is also counted as a member of Australia's regular infantry battalions, which gives us our total of 8x regular infantry battalions, our largest regular force since Vietnam, incidentally.

This is a bit misleading to my eye however, as 4RAR has been developed into a dedicated special operations unit and no longer even slightly resembles an infantry battalion in structure, role, equipment or even "ethos" in my opinion.

It should be transferred from the Royal Australian Regiment and be renamed as a permanent Commando Regiment in my opinion...

AD,

Thanks for that. I may have known these details but others may not - good quick reference quide (I had to write a breifing on what you just wrote above for my dad, who has just taken up a job with the AMPHIB FEG as a LtCmdr, to bring him upt to speed after 3 1/2 years in Navy's opsdiv). I may have been somewhat unclear about my questionv- let me rephrase. I wasn't attempting to suggest that there was a standard brigade type (indeed these listed above are Mech, Light and Motorised respectively - not sure where the "twos" element is.....Battlegroups?), but was noting that army seems to have attached, in its organisation charts (hell, even the wiki version), something from the AAC in each brigade in addition to three fighting formations (except 1st bde which has two, 1st armoured and 2nd cav - along with 5 & 7 RAR). Even if b Squad. 3/4 Cav is a small contingent, it is still there. Given that 7th brigade will have 6, 8/9 RAR and 2/14th QMI, it seems to be one formation short (another Mot. Battalion?). Is this the case?

Brett.

 

[Aussie Digger]

AD,

Thanks for that (I may have known these details but others may not - good quick reference quide ). I may have been somewhat unclear about my questionv- let me rephrase. I wasn't attempting to suggest that there was a standard brigade type (indeed these listed above are Mech, Light and Motorised respectively - not sure where the "twos" element is.....Battlegroups?), but was noting that army seems to have attached, in its organisation charts (hell, even the wiki version), something from the AAC in each brigade in addition to three fighting formations (except 1st bde which has two - 1st armoured and 2nd cav). Even if b Squad. 3/4 Cav is a small contingent, it is still there. Given that 7th brigade will have 6, 8/9 RAR and 2/14th QMI, it seems to be one formation short. Is this the case?

Brett.

Not really and I'm not really sure what that extra formation would be. Another armoured Regiment perhaps?

7 Brigade is not intended to deploy as a brigade or taskforce level entity.

Rather it will provide unit and sub-unit high readiness formations available for immediate deployment or rotational deployments. 1 Brigade or 3 Brigade or a combination of both (like Timor), would deploy sufficient units to comprise a "brigade" under the command of the DJFHQ, if a brigade sized formation was required for an operation.

At most, I expect 7 Brigade will provide battalion sized "battle groups" in combination with other units, 2/14LHR, 1 Field Arty, combat engineers etc.

As such, I don't see the need for 7 Brigade to have another "formation" added to it, though of course another regular battalion would be nice...

BTW, I think you are referring to RAAC (Royal Australian Armoured Corps) as opposed to AAC (Army Aviation Corps) aren't you?

The Army of "two's" I referred to earlier is Army's philosophy for the maintenance of it's major land force units and sub-units: 2x Cavalry Regiments, 2x Mechanised infantry battalions, 2x armed recon helo squadrons, 2x tank squadrons, 2x motorised infantry battalions, etc, etc.

It is a step in the right direction from the years of "ones" where capabilities, especially support capabilities were not duplicated throughout Army. In years to come our ability to deploy and more importantly sustain deployed forces should grow exponentially as a result of these decisions.

Interestingly enough, the Chief of Army's Force 2025 plan has a guiding philosophy of Army becoming an Army of "three's"...

 

[battlensign]

Not really and I'm not really sure what that extra formation would be. Another armoured Regiment perhaps?

7 Brigade is not intended to deploy as a brigade or taskforce level entity.

Rather it will provide unit and sub-unit high readiness formations available for immediate deployment or rotational deployments. 1 Brigade or 3 Brigade or a combination of both (like Timor), would deploy sufficient units to comprise a "brigade" under the command of the DJFHQ, if a brigade sized formation was required for an operation.

At most, I expect 7 Brigade will provide battalion sized "battle groups" in combination with other units, 2/14LHR, 1 Field Arty, combat engineers etc.

As such, I don't see the need for 7 Brigade to have another "formation" added to it, though of course another regular battalion would be nice...

BTW, I think you are referring to RAAC (Royal Australian Armoured Corps) as opposed to AAC (Army Aviation Corps) aren't you?

The Army of "two's" I referred to earlier is Army's philosophy for the maintenance of it's major land force units and sub-units: 2x Cavalry Regiments, 2x Mechanised infantry battalions, 2x armed recon helo squadrons, 2x tank squadrons, 2x motorised infantry battalions, etc, etc.

It is a step in the right direction from the years of "ones" where capabilities, especially support capabilities were not duplicated throughout Army. In years to come our ability to deploy and more importantly sustain deployed forces should grow exponentially as a result of these decisions.

Interestingly enough, the Chief of Army's Force 2025 plan has a guiding philosophy of Army becoming an Army of "three's"...

Well, at least we'll be able to rotate them........ (Also shouldn't that really be two armoured regiments, to do it properly? its only fair if there are two Mech battalions)

Yes, AAC was my attempt to refernce the RAAC. I did know that but my Navy way of thinking doesn't allow me to let the army have "Royal" :

In relation to the 7th brigade question, thanks. Although my thinking allows me to claim as a necessity an extra Battalion/Regiment.........the more the better ( Whether or not that is actually the case)

Brett.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Well, at least we'll be able to rotate them........ (Also shouldn't that really be two armoured regiments, to do it properly? its only fair if there are two Mech battalions)

"Standard" battle group size for the Army's mechanised battle groups is to match a mechanised infantry battalion to a tank squadron, an artillery battery and a Cav Sqn, plus supporting elements. As there are only 2 mechanised battalions...

Yes, AAC was my attempt to refernce the RAAC. I did know that but my Navy way of thinking doesn't allow me to let the army have "Royal" :

In relation to the 7th brigade question, thanks. Although my thinking allows me to claim as a necessity an extra Battalion/Regiment.........the more the better ( Whether or not that is actually the case)

Brett.

Agreed. More reg inf battalions ARE needed, but so is everything else...

 

[Tasman]

Interestingly enough, the Chief of Army's Force 2025 plan has a guiding philosophy of Army becoming an Army of "three's"...

Let's hope that once the 'army of twos' has been achieved our government will have the political will to support an expansion to an 'army of threes.' In contrast to previous elections in the last forty years, I've been pleased to hear politicians from both major parties talking up the need for a larger Australian army in the early stages of the current campaign.

Tas

 

[FutureTank]

Mod edit:

Perhaps you missed all that red text I entered earlier. Give the politics a rest or your posts WILL be deleted.

AD

 

[blueorchid]

From Aussie Digger :-
"In future 8/9RAR will be raised as a motorised infantry battalion and equipped with it's own integral Bushmaster IMV vehicles. 6RAR and 8/9RAR will then comprise the battalions for 7 Brigade, whilst 9RQR and 25/49 RQR will be transferred to a different Brigade, (13th Brigade perhaps?) but will no doubt remain light infantry battalions, in their current locations (ie: South East Queensland). "

It will not be the 13th Brigade, thats the West Australian Brigade of the 16th Battalion and 11/28 Battalion.

Cheers

 

[Aussie Digger]

It will not be the 13th Brigade, thats the West Australian Brigade of the 16th Battalion and 11/28 Battalion.

Cheers

Hmm. Fair enough, perhaps it's 11 Brigade then. In any case, the reserve Brigade based primarily in Far Northern Queensland is the Brigade I was referring to...

Regards

AD

 

[Navor86]

BTW 1 Armored has 3 Abrams Tank Squadrons

 

[blueorchid]

Hmm. Fair enough, perhaps it's 11 Brigade then. In any case, the reserve Brigade based primarily in Far Northern Queensland is the Brigade I was referring to...

Regards

AD​

I wonder if the Army will bring back the Regular 6th Brigade for the 6th and 8/9th battalions.

Go back to the way it was in the 1990's - 6th Brigade being regulars and the 7th Brigade being the South East Qld reserve Brigade.
Rename the 2/14 Light Horse Regiment to the 3rd Cav Regt so that the 2/14 Light Horse Regiment can return to the reserve Brigade.

Cheers
​

 

[RubiconNZ]

Tragic News

An Australian SAS trooper was killed yesterday from direct hostile fire the believed first since Vietnam. The SMH article can be read here.
Prayers and Sympathy with the family.

Afghanistan is really heating up for Australian soldiers, I guess we have been 'lucky' until the last few weeks.

 

[buglerbilly]

Sergeant Matthew Locke has been named as the SAS Trooper killed.

My thoughts are with his Family amd Mates.............

Regards,

BUG

 

[gf0012-aust]

LWF.

Apparently he was awarded a Medal for Gallantry last year on his first tour, this was his second.....

 

[Tasman]

I share the thoughts expressed by Robsta83, BUG and Gf.

Unfortunately I believe more casualties are highly likely owing to both an apparent increase in the intensity of Taliban operations in the area and the fact that Australian Special Forces appear to be actively seeking them out.

Tas

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

My deepest condolances to his family and mates. Does anyone know how old he was or if he had any kids? I agree with tassie, we have been lucky so far. Its a real war over there. I remember reading somone state how lucky we've been over the last 12 months not to have annother combat death, apparantly SASR & 4RAR have had alot of realy close calls and troopers bieng wounded under heavy fire, and it was just a matter of time.

Its humbleing to think of the sacrifice he made. Lest we forget.

 

[barra]

Very sad news indeed, SGT Locke (and Trooper Pearce before him) making the ultimate sacrifice. It is humbling and should reinforce our will to see this through so their sacrifice was not in vain. My thoughts and prayers go out to his family and mates.

Barra

 

[FutureTank]

LWF.

Apparently he was awarded a Medal for Gallantry last year on his first tour, this was his second.....

apparently this was his third tour...

 

[Simon9]

Hmm. Fair enough, perhaps it's 11 Brigade then. In any case, the reserve Brigade based primarily in Far Northern Queensland is the Brigade I was referring to...

Yeah it's 11 Bde, and the transfer of 9RQR has already happened. It's not far northern Queensland exactly, but central and north Qld. They have depots in Rockhampton, Mackay, Townsville and Cairns.

I believe (not 100% sure) that 31 and 42RQR are to be linked to form 31/42RQR due to low numbers. Also the whole of 11 Bde is being transferred to 2 Div.

I'm not sure what will happen to 25/49, I think they may stay in 7 Bde. For some reason their recent status as an integrated battalion seems to mean they rank 'higher' than 9RQR, which is ironic because there's no difference between the two now since 25/49 gave up their regular companies in the early 2000s.

Incidentally there are new accommodation lines being built at Enoggera and 8/9RAR's skeleton staff came to inspect 9RQR's lines with a view to taking them over, so 9RQR could well get booted off Enoggera altogether.

 

[FutureTank]

Perhaps someone here can help me.

I understand that the "Grand Plan" is to have 3 Brigades operational once 8/9 RAR is fully developed, however, my counts on the numbers of Battalions (and where they are currently organised) suggests that we will still be one off. Any I reading something incorrectly?

The only other option I see is to include 2/14th as the third unit, but both 1st and 3rd brigades have integral mobility units in addition to the 3 fighting units....using 2/14th for this would mean that 7th brigade was still a unit short wouldn't it...?

Brett.

Historically speaking Australian Army had been a force of "threes" strategically and operationally, but not tactically until now.

WW1 - only three infantry divisions were originally to be raised (and one cavalry/mounted infantry) , but in view of losses the 4th was raised, and the 5th really should have been a reinforcing formation (why the GHQ tried to disband the 4th)

WW2 - The Army had three Field Armies, one of which was raised as the 2AIF, each with three infantry and one armoured divisions (so a tripling in recruiting effort from WW1 due to conscription). However the logistic footprint of the WW2 divisions grew faster then sea shipping capability in Australian waters, so only three infantry divisions could be shipped to East Med instead of four during WW1, and armour never went.

Since that time, and until East Timor deployment, the Army has never sent more then a battalion for service anywhere.

Assuming that a modern Infantry Brigade has the firepower of a WW2 Infantry division, the Army needs 12 infantry and three armoured brigades to maintain its wartime capability should the worst case scenario develop. Of course since armour was never deployed in WW2 outside of Australia in any significant numbers, and because logistically this would be a hindrance in most plausible scenarios, 12 infantry brigades with an armoured component (squadron?) should suffice.
However based on this thinking, the Army would need three regular brigades, and substantially well staffed nine reserve brigades.

Given the increase in transportation capability of the RAN and RAAF, the infantry brigades can be of the mixed capability type, with one light (parachute ?), one motorised (due to Canberra class loading capacity considerations) and one mechanised battalions complemented by the usual combat and combat support brigade sub-units.
Ostensibly current force structure can possibly produce the three regular brigades. However even if one considers the SOCOMD for a regular brigade spot, two more reserve brigades would be required to make up the difference.

So not sure what all the changes in the brigades mean.

 

[Simon9]

Since that time, and until East Timor deployment, the Army has never sent more then a battalion for service anywhere.

Except Vietnam. I believe at one time there were three Australian battalions serving simultaneously, and large numbers of support troops. Certainly for much of the time Australia was in Vietnam there were two battalions deployed together.