Can singapore hold its own?

[paskal]

Actually, I believe MY is slightly more advanced than SG in terms of satellite technology. With Astros and a lot of Govt incentives assisting in satellite tech has made a difference whereas SG's Govt is still living in commercial telecom stoneage (ie focus on sub cables even though bandwidth is probably faster).

DSO (as the name implies) does have something called the X-SAT in progress. However, ATSB has already launched 1 micro-sat (Tiungsat as mentioned) and another Razaksat is on the way. Primarily, ATSB is learning through JVs whereas DSO (and Crest) is very much internalised.

http://www.razaksat.com/razaksat.asp

I'm not so sure as to the utility of such micro-sat in military application when google maps practically got imagery for the whole of SG already. They're probably thinking of 24/7 pictoral coverage.

I totally agree with you...
im trying to convince that the tiungsat-1 is also used for defence but they still never believe me.
Even a normal high school kid will know this as in geography they will be thought about malaysia satelites:vamp

by the way the razaksat will be launch next year right?

 

[paskal]

A lot of ignorance posted here, including geographic. The lower Malaya peninsular might have been jungle once but is not anymore. The terrain between Raffles Plaza (Singapore) and the Petronas Twins (KL) is not much different to central Europe. The jungles have been deforested and turned into farmland and urban areas.

The Singapore-Malaysia strategic balance is a complex one. However Singapore can easily be judged to have a comprehensive military dominance over Malaysia, like that between Israel and Jordan (for example). The SAF exists to do two things – one dissuade Malaysia from further violent pogroms against the Malaysian Chinese population. In the case of another “13 May” race riots in 196 the SAF would invade and occupy peninsular Malaysia using their dominant conventional air-land force.

The second case would see Malaysia being aggressive towards Singapore directly such as trying to impose a blockade. In which case the SAF would occupy a Johore buffer zone.

Mobilised Singapore has 400,000 trained and well equipped soldiers with generally good motivation and competent leadership. They are equipped with a130 120mm tanks, 370 90mm/75mm light tanks, 800 25mm IFVs, 1,000 APCs (with both HMG and AGL) supported by 18 6x227mm MRL, 60 155mm SPH, 200 155mm towed and 60 105mm towed artillery. In the air is 12 F-15E and 40 F-16D strike aircraft, 20 F-16C and 40 F-5E+ fighters and 20 AH-64D attack helicopters. This force is backed by the full gamut of western level C4ISR and support capabilities and heavy supported in logistics.

Compared to this the MAF only has 200,000 trained soldiers with leadership that is not as young, dynamic and professionally trained as the SAF. They are equipped with 50 125mm tanks, 200 90mm/76mm light tanks/armd cars, 320 25mm IFVs, 600 APCs (mostly wheeled and with 20mm guns) supported by 18 4x300mm MRL, 40 155mm towed and 200 105mm towed artillery. In the air is 18 Su-30MKM, 8 F/A-18D strike aircraft and 14 MiG-25 fighters. This force does not have comparable C4ISR, support and logistics and all the equipment types are inferior to their SAF counterpart.

you are wrong about someof the statement above
check this link and you will se malaysia forces compare to singapore forces

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Malaysia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Malaysian_Navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Malaysian_Air_Force

for singapore:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Armed_Forces
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singapore_Army
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Singapore_Navy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Singapore_Air_Force

by the way singapore has only 72500 soldiers and only 30000+ conscripts:vamp

the others are only national :shudder service man

 

[AGRA]

by the way singapore has only 72500 soldiers and only 30000+ conscripts:vamp

the others are only national :shudder service man

I said 'mobilised' and you should also note I factored in the MAF's own reserves to these figures. The SAF has 300,000 or so Operationally-Ready National Servicemen (ORNSmen).

As for dismissing the SAF's NSmen as insignificant I would suggest you need to go and see how drafted conscripts and 30-40 year old reservists from Israel have consistently wiped the floor with 'professionals' from their neighbouring countries. Also look into the conscripts and reservists of other countries that have performed very well. Like the WW2 German Army that smashed the all volunteer and long term professional army of Great Britain in Belgium in 1940.

The perception that the only good soldier is a volunteer professional and all conscripts are bad soldiers is complete bumpkin. The factors that are important for individual soldier quality are training, motivation and fitness (physical and psychological). In many cases and was certainly the Australian Army’s experience with conscription during the Vietnam War where the conscripted soldiers were of a higher average quality (especially in intelligence) than the volunteer soldiers.

While many conscript armies have skimped on training and motivation (like the old Soviet Army) so to do many volunteer armies and it is certainly not universal. Having witnessed the quality of the SAF’s focus on training and motivation compared to some of their “more professional” neighbours I have little doubt that in the bulk of the line units the SAF will actually outperform the MAF or TNI in individual solider quality.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

I totally agree with you...
im trying to convince that the tiungsat-1 is also used for defence but they still never believe me.
Even a normal high school kid will know this as in geography they will be thought about malaysia satelites:vamp

by the way the razaksat will be launch next year right?

Actually tiungsat wasn't used for military purposes. The collaboration was commercial in nature. In terms of imaging, there is little to gain. Its not like Malaysians cannot walk around and survey Singapore. Google maps can probably provide the rest. Even JI members did so using a video cam taking potential targets.

That said, I'm sure lessons were learnt to enhance Malaysia potential military capabilities in satellite technology. Its real time imaging, comm sats and GPS that will make a difference in military applications. MEASAT comms technology requires US licenses and will unlikely to be applied to MY's sat capabilities. X-sat is supposed to provide semi real time imaging. SG's use of GPS is fairly well documented but most of SG's sat military capabilities are external dependent.

There were even some talk about how Optus was acquired to enhance SG sat defence capabilities.

Razaksat current launch schedule using the falcon1 rocket is due Q1, 2008 but this is a moving timetable. X-sat is scheduled for a May 2008 launch.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Actually tiungsat wasn't used for military purposes. The collaboration was commercial in nature. In terms of imaging, there is little to gain. Its not like Malaysians cannot walk around and survey Singapore. Google maps can probably provide the rest. Even JI members did so using a video cam taking potential targets.

I suspect that Malaysias need for satellites has more to do with monitoring the Straits and her neighbour to the south than with Singapore.

After all - the FPDA has just recently been renewed...

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

General

------------------------------------------------------------------------
October 10, 2007 17:59 PM

Malaysia Gets China Satellite Data Receiving System

By Tham Choy Lin

BEIJING, Oct 10 (Bernama) -- Malaysia has received a one-stop satellite data collection and delivery system from China which will further boost capability to monitor changes to the Earth including hotspots from forest fires and climate change.

It is among a second batch of 11 countries to receive the Feng Yun Satellite Data Broadcasting System (FENGYUNCast) at a ceremonial handover held Wednesday at the Central Meteorological Administration (CMA) headquarters in the Chinese capital.

FENGYUNCast which covers the whole of the Asia Pacific was developed by CMA since 2003. It distributes data from Chinese and international satellites of similar application to user countries in the Asia Pacific via a telecommunication satellite.

Lim Juay Jin, deputy chief of the Malaysian mission in Beijing, received the system on the country's behalf.

Alui Bahari, deputy director-general for application of Malaysia's Meteorological Department, said FENGYUNCast will help cut down costs of receiving and processing data from separate satellites.

"Malaysia gets satellite data from five different units now, two each from China and the United States and one from Japan. We had to purchase different systems for the different satellites.

"With FENGYUNCast, we'll be able to receive data from all five with one system only. It'll strengthen our satellite ground receiving stations in receiving data and information on a real-time basis," said Alui who is attending a seminar here in conjunction with the handover to learn more about the use of FengyunCast.

FENGYUNCast is a component of the worldwide intergovernmental GEONETCast which is leading efforts to build a global Earth observation system to enhance data delivery aimed at reducing and preventing disasters, improving human health, management of energy, water, agriculture and biodiversity, weather forecast and assessing climate change.

Malaysia's National Space Agency is a member of Group on Earth Observations (GEO).

The other countries which received the system were Kyrgyzstan, Laos, Nepal, Philippines, Sri Lanka, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Vietnam. Last year, it was donated to Bangladesh, Indonesia, Iran, Mongolia, Pakistan and Thailand.

-- BERNAMA

 

[gf0012-aust]

Malaysia's National Space Agency

What is MNSA's charter? Who has oversight of their operations?

I'm curious as to who has action item ownership of whatever datasets are generated.

 

[Chino]

A lot of ignorance posted here, ....

....The SAF exists to do two things – one dissuade Malaysia from further violent pogroms against the Malaysian Chinese population. In the case of another “13 May” race riots in 196 the SAF would invade and occupy peninsular Malaysia using their dominant conventional air-land force.....

Huh?

When did SAF become defender of citizens of foreign countries - Chinese or otherwise?

It's a noble thought, though.

We may send in assets to evacuate or ensure safety of Singaporeans in Malaysia, but NOT for the Malaysians - whatever their ethnicity.

Malaysian - whatever race, however, are probably welcomed as temporary refugees on humanitarian grounds if their lives are threatened.

We may send a peacekeeping force under UN auspices but will not undertake military action on our own.
...

We are not as mighty as you make us out to be.

 

[AGRA]

When did SAF become defender of citizens of foreign countries - Chinese or otherwise?

Maybe not the SAF but considereing Singapore is a one party state on the Leninist model the SAF is a tool of the People's Action Party. So when one considers the PAP you have to consider their sister party the Democratic Action Party (DAP) of Malaysia.

The political interplay between Singapore and Malaysia is far more complex and nuanced than that of other regional states.

We are not as mighty as you make us out to be.

Only in comparison with your neighbours... SAF vs ADF? Well that would be interesting...

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

What is MNSA's charter? Who has oversight of their operations?

I'm curious as to who has action item ownership of whatever datasets are generated.

You should check out:
http://www.angkasa.gov.my/welcome/Menu/default.php

If I'm not wrong, its under a Ministry of Science and Technology. Charter and info on law, policy, facilities etc can be found in the website.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Maybe not the SAF but considereing Singapore is a one party state on the Leninist model the SAF is a tool of the People's Action Party. So when one considers the PAP you have to consider their sister party the Democratic Action Party (DAP) of Malaysia.

The political interplay between Singapore and Malaysia is far more complex and nuanced than that of other regional states.

I think you need to visit Singapore. Its as leninist as how a dress fits a monkey. Dictatorial, legalist, perhaps but the Leninist model, it is not. The Singapore model might incorporate details such as democratic centralism but the ultimate aim of Leninism is the overthrow of capitalism which ironically is the antithesis of the fundamental driver of the Singapore model ie capitalism.

In fact, Lenin identified such capitalist models as the basis for worker's suppression (which occurs to a certain extent in most countries) and therefore seek a proletarian revolution.

The ruling party might be regarded as guilty of using tools that are often exploited by communist, socialist, fascist regimes but its fundamental basis is ironically imperial as it adopts the commonwealth basis of laws. Show me a govt which doesn't use such tools and I can show you a Govt that is not going to be Govt for very long. Indeed, one might instead use the phrase pseudo-socialist. The success of legalism ie in the use of its law has perhaps created the incorrect impression of a socialist regime.

The purpose of the SAF is embedded in its very clear mission.

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/about_us/mission.html

"The Mission of the Singapore Armed Forces is to enhance Singapore’s peace and security through deterrence and diplomacy, and should these fail, to secure a swift and decisive victory over the aggressor."

I think people shouldn't read too much into it eg chinese etc....

 

[Chino]

Maybe not the SAF but considereing Singapore is a one party state on the Leninist model the SAF is a tool of the People's Action Party. So when one considers the PAP you have to consider their sister party the Democratic Action Party (DAP) of Malaysia.

Hahaha! Leninist...Funny. I doubt the DAP and PAP still have any relationship.

The political interplay between Singapore and Malaysia is far more complex and nuanced than that of other regional states.

This is true. But so, too, of the relationship between Malaysia and Indonesia. Malaysia and Thailand etc etc. That's why wars happen between neighbours, too much baggage.

Only in comparison with your neighbours... SAF vs ADF? Well that would be interesting...

Why should such a comparison be made?

Look man, it's obvious you have heard or read some nonsense and mistaken it for the truth. But let me state once more, we DO NOT have any formal or even informal obligation to defend any citizens or any foreign country.

Should such a situation arises in Malaysia of Chinese being massacred, SAF may act to ensure the safety and evacuation of our citizens from Malaysia.

And we would provide whatever humanitarian assiatance we can to victims within our power. But any military deployment would be under the auspices of the UN etc. Going in alone will not happen unless we are threatened.

 

[AGRA]

I think you need to visit Singapore. Its as leninist as how a dress fits a monkey. Dictatorial, legalist, perhaps but the Leninist model, it is not. The Singapore model might incorporate details such as democratic centralism but the ultimate aim of Leninism is the overthrow of capitalism which ironically is the antithesis of the fundamental driver of the Singapore model ie capitalism.

I've been there a few times. However I'm afraid YOU need to look up some political science to see just what a 'Leninist' model political party means. It has nothing to do with communism, capitalism etc. It is how to organise a state in such a way that a political party has complete control over it, be that party communist (Cuba), capitalist (Singapore) or something in between (China?). The PAP is widely considered a Leninist political party and is referred to such by all academia outside of Singapore. While a benevolent dictatorship a dictatorship it is none the less.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

I've been there a few times. However I'm afraid YOU need to look up some political science to see just what a 'Leninist' model political party means. It has nothing to do with communism, capitalism etc. It is how to organise a state in such a way that a political party has complete control over it, be that party communist (Cuba), capitalist (Singapore) or something in between (China?). The PAP is widely considered a Leninist political party and is referred to such by all academia outside of Singapore. While a benevolent dictatorship a dictatorship it is none the less.

Yup, and I explained in my post what Leninism means. Yet based on your word alone, I am deemed wrong. lol. Yup, dress on monkey alrighty...

The bullshit about how Singapore governance is expounded by Leninism is a fallacy. Lenin advocated proleterian direct democracy based on initiative, referendum and recall. Clearly you have no understanding of how Singapore politics works.

 

[AGRA]

Yup, and I explained in my post what Leninism means. Yet based on your word alone, I am deemed wrong. lol. Yup, dress on monkey alrighty...

The bullshit about how Singapore governance is expounded by Leninism is a fallacy. Lenin advocated proleterian direct democracy based on initiative, referendum and recall. Clearly you have no understanding of how Singapore politics works.

Dude! Don't get in a huff, how about you read what I said...

"Leninism" is different to a "Leninist Political Party". Apart from all the Communism stuff Lenin devised a political system in which a party would control the state through democratic centralism and by complete control of all state organs by the party. There would be an apperance of democratic control by the people of the state but it would be completely controlled by the party. This has nothing to do with ideologies.

This is how the PAP and the Government of Singapore is organised.

 

[renjer]

I suspect that Malaysias need for satellites has more to do with monitoring the Straits and her neighbour to the south than with Singapore.

After all - the FPDA has just recently been renewed...

I'd say to the north as well. Despite friendly relations what goes on in the Andamans and the Spratlys is a matter of interest to us.

 

[renjer]

I doubt the DAP and PAP still have any relationship.

I would agree. The two might have had shared "origins" but the PAP is a very focused organization. It's priority relationship in Malaysia is now with UMNO. Even the Chinese-based MCA comes in at a very distant second.

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Dude! Don't get in a huff, how about you read what I said...

"Leninism" is different to a "Leninist Political Party". Apart from all the Communism stuff Lenin devised a political system in which a party would control the state through democratic centralism and by complete control of all state organs by the party. There would be an apperance of democratic control by the people of the state but it would be completely controlled by the party. This has nothing to do with ideologies.

This is how the PAP and the Government of Singapore is organised.

That in lies the irony. Lenin and Leninism never advocated a role for a party or a state except as a transition to a proletariat-run state. There was never meant to be a party to "control" the state. Nowhere in any doctrine is there a concept where state = party. This concept is neither engrained in any true communist or socialist concept except as a function of state party control. Indeed, it was always meant to be the proletariat controlling the state but stalin bastardized and reversed the roles which gives rise to the confusion today.

The concept of state = party is rather a feature of fascism. Indeed, what you are describing is more fascism than leninism. However, again it is inaccurate to label the Singapore Govt as fascist because fascism dismisses the concept of a laissez faire system and promulgates race superiority.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Can we please restrict definitions of political constructs to a different thread fellas?

 

[Chino]

Dont be ridiculous with semantics Chino. When you say that these two countries can attack Singapore with the least warning, it implies that Singapore would not know soon enough. That does not happen in this age. Especially with neighbours.

How is the Falklands comparable to Singapore`s situation ? The war`s right here.

And honestly, your comments would make more sense if the country that is purportedly trying to attack Singapore is half-way across the world. In which case, it would be harder to prove its intentions.

You are the one being petty with semantics.

"Malaysia can attack us with the least warning." I did not say "no warning". I did not say "surprise attack".

If you have nothing useful to add to this thread, please shut up and stop trying to pick a fight with me. Get over it, please.

Admin. Learn to exercise some self control when responding. Your last sentence could have been delivered in a calmer more controlled fashion.

In addition, please note my preceding comment.