Can singapore hold its own?

[gf0012-aust]

they all are the ones responsible for trainig the americans in jungle warfare

what absolute rubbish. The US train in jungle warfare with over 8 nations. They exercise with the Malays as well as numerous other countries.

The Cobra Gold series of exercises are all done with the Thais, and they are full wargames. In addition, the US trains with the Filippinos in jungle warfare and have done so for the last 40 years. They've recently started exercises with the Indians and also are involved with Brunei.

US Rangers are involved with Jungle Warfare training in northern australia and the USMC, Singapore and Aust practice jungle warfare co-op training in FNQ.

In addition, the US is involved with jungle warfare training and exercises with a number of African countries, in fact they've had one relationship since 1966.

 

[AGRA]

A lot of ignorance posted here, including geographic. The lower Malaya peninsular might have been jungle once but is not anymore. The terrain between Raffles Plaza (Singapore) and the Petronas Twins (KL) is not much different to central Europe. The jungles have been deforested and turned into farmland and urban areas.

The Singapore-Malaysia strategic balance is a complex one. However Singapore can easily be judged to have a comprehensive military dominance over Malaysia, like that between Israel and Jordan (for example). The SAF exists to do two things – one dissuade Malaysia from further violent pogroms against the Malaysian Chinese population. In the case of another “13 May” race riots in 196 the SAF would invade and occupy peninsular Malaysia using their dominant conventional air-land force.

The second case would see Malaysia being aggressive towards Singapore directly such as trying to impose a blockade. In which case the SAF would occupy a Johore buffer zone.

Mobilised Singapore has 400,000 trained and well equipped soldiers with generally good motivation and competent leadership. They are equipped with a130 120mm tanks, 370 90mm/75mm light tanks, 800 25mm IFVs, 1,000 APCs (with both HMG and AGL) supported by 18 6x227mm MRL, 60 155mm SPH, 200 155mm towed and 60 105mm towed artillery. In the air is 12 F-15E and 40 F-16D strike aircraft, 20 F-16C and 40 F-5E+ fighters and 20 AH-64D attack helicopters. This force is backed by the full gamut of western level C4ISR and support capabilities and heavy supported in logistics.

Compared to this the MAF only has 200,000 trained soldiers with leadership that is not as young, dynamic and professionally trained as the SAF. They are equipped with 50 125mm tanks, 200 90mm/76mm light tanks/armd cars, 320 25mm IFVs, 600 APCs (mostly wheeled and with 20mm guns) supported by 18 4x300mm MRL, 40 155mm towed and 200 105mm towed artillery. In the air is 18 Su-30MKM, 8 F/A-18D strike aircraft and 14 MiG-25 fighters. This force does not have comparable C4ISR, support and logistics and all the equipment types are inferior to their SAF counterpart.

 

[swerve]

Singapore is roughly the size of NYC. There's no way you can win when all they gotta do is bomb one city. You can shove all the damn anti-whatever systems in the world into singapore, its still going down.

Before you an bomb a city, you have to be able to reach it. What weapons do any of Singapores neighbours have with which they can bombard Singapore, that cannot be countered by Singapore?

Remember that Singapores air force outnumbers those of both its immediate neighbours combined, in combat aircraft, & as has been said, has unchallenged superiority in sensors, EW, & command & control.

 

[swerve]

what absolute rubbish. The US train in jungle warfare with over 8 nations. They exercise with the Malays as well as numerous other countries. ....

He's been corrected on this before.

 

[Mr Ignorant]

The Singapore-Malaysia strategic balance is a complex one. However Singapore can easily be judged to have a comprehensive military dominance over Malaysia, like that between Israel and Jordan (for example). The SAF exists to do two things – one dissuade Malaysia from further violent pogroms against the Malaysian Chinese population. In the case of another “13 May” race riots in 196 the SAF would invade and occupy peninsular Malaysia using their dominant conventional air-land force.

Invasion is an act of aggression. Violent pogroms are a Police Matter. The May 13 riots in Kuala Lumpur in 1969 was an Internal Security Problem, and as far as I am aware, one that was caused and continued by violent Chinese and Malay Racists. These elements were dealt with by the Security Services, and a State of Emergency imposed.

Any act by any extremist on Malaysian soil, will be severely dealt with. Chinese or otherwise.

 

[gary1910]

Again, that answers the original question asked. Singapore can hold it's own, but it cannot wage a long drawn out protracted conflict.

And then someone added that the UN would broker some form of peace, if ever those scenarios play out. Delusions continue to pile up.

War of attrition with insurgency tactics???

And the SAF will be using vast superior RSAF with large number SEAD capable F-16D Blk52/52+ and F-15SG to take MY apart piece by piece.

MY will eventually ask UN to intervene, becos if MY don't, there will be nothing left to recover from!!!!nfloorl:

Singapore is small, Conscripts are poor quality soldiers, and you can have all the hi tech, but when the forces are broken by attrition, you expect the Singaporeans to be able to create Buffer Zones????

Singapore is a small Island State. Insignicant to Malaysia. Spend all the money on the hardware, just know this, the small state will always be that. [/B][/COLOR]

;sarcasm:
Yes , SG cannot create a buffer zone all the way to Thai-MY border, with it's vastly superior hardwares conscript based army but as you said and I quote:

It is conceivable for the Singapore armed forces to roll in to Kuala Lumpur, in strength, with few problems too encounter

So we will just create 300km buffer zone all the way up to KL, afterall a vastly superior hardwares conscript based army can only do so much!!!nfloorl:

Are we seeing 2 typical Malaysians here?

One is a total ignorant, and the other just want act ignorant so to spew out nationalistic BS!!!

I will try to avoid all these BS as the neutrals here with their unbiased and informed postings are already doing well.

 

[wzhtg]

re

War of attrition with insurgency tactics???

Are we seeing 2 typical Malaysians here?

One is a total ignorant, and the other just want act ignorant so to spew out nationalistic BS!!!

I will try to avoid all these BS as the neutrals here with their unbiased and informed postings are already doing well.

Hmm....so where do I fit in all these categories?

 

[gary1910]

Hmm....so where do I fit in all these categories?

I see that you agree with my observation.

You are well informed but of course you will be biased on the side of MY but not to the extend to spew out craps,not like those that are entertaining and degrading the image of Malaysian.

I am sure I will be learning something from your postings.

 

[Mr Ignorant]

Is that it?

I can see someone's ego is slightly bruised


Moving on to pastures anew. Is Gary1910 Singaporean???? Is he really

 

[Transient]

wzhtg comes under the pinnochio category. He claimed he is serving ns in Singapore. Of course, he edited that part out pretty fast.

 

[Mr Ignorant]

In all honesty, Gary 1910 and Aghra has raised some very important points to consider, aside from the sniping, but that was my fault for being condescending.

I generally agree with his views that the SAF can hold out on their own against their immediate neighbours, but I am nowhere near convince about any sustained scenarios of invasion. In general, this thread originally posed the question whether the SAF can defend as much as deter, and I belief, all of us are in agreement about this.

I can't speculate on other scenarios because it is plainly beyond logic or my own understanding. I think the MAF are inferior in terms of Air Superiority for now, but that policy is very much deliberate. My only thoughts now if there would be a logical rational standardisation of aircraft/ air superiority fighters in the Malaysian inventory, like it was in the 70s with the A4 Skyhawk,

And what do you guys think of the SU 30 MKM??? Is this really a viable option for the Malaysians???

Mr Ignorant

 

[wzhtg]

re

wzhtg comes under the pinnochio category. He claimed he is serving ns in Singapore. Of course, he edited that part out pretty fast.

Well I am serving ns in Singapore as it is now. Still got about 5 months till ORD. Just in case you were wondering why Transient, I'm Malaysian but I'm also SG PR, so naturally I have to serve ns in Singapore, in fact I grew up my whole life in SG. In any case, I think a couple of others may have already known that I was Malaysian/SG PR and am serving ns in singapore, believed i mentioned it in another forum before.

 

[riksavage]

Singapore is hampered by geography, its armed forces have zero room to maneuver and they certainly can’t afford to get caught up in a FIBUA scenario on native soil. Singapore’s defense doctrine is based heavily on that of Israel. Their objective is to strike the enemy hard early in the game thus removing the antagonist’s ability to inflict critical damage against Singapore’s infrastructure, hence the sizable and very capable air-force.

Should hostilities breakout against Malaysia for example, Singapore would (in my opinion) strike the Malaysian airbases in the hope of destroying as many aircraft on the ground as physically possible. They would simultaneously advance across the causeways taking the fight to the enemy thus minimizing collateral damage to Singapore densely populated areas. Singapore’s technological edge will hopefully give it an advantage, making up for there lack of experience in actual combat operations. I doubt there is a single serving officer or NCO that has ever been in the line of fire!

 

[gf0012-aust]

Before anyone else posts, please read the Forum Rules - and in particular the ones pertaining to respect.
If this post continues to degrade it will be temporarily locked.


and if people intend using the following icon: nfloorl: please ensure that it's not going to be perceived as a derogatory attempt to belittle someone.

 

[AGRA]

Singapore is hampered by geography, its armed forces have zero room to maneuver and they certainly can’t afford to get caught up in a FIBUA scenario on native soil. Singapore’s defense doctrine is based heavily on that of Israel. Their objective is to strike the enemy hard early in the game thus removing the antagonist’s ability to inflict critical damage against Singapore’s infrastructure, hence the sizable and very capable air-force.

I think the geography problem Singapore faces is overstated. It is extremely hard to degrade infrastructure of a modern city. Look at the US’s attacks on Baghdad and the Soviets on Grozny. Both (especially Grozny) are much smaller cities than Singapore who does not face this kind of combat power. Most of Singapore’s infrastructure is to the south (except Changi) and the urban areas to the north would just create even more of a complex barrier for any attacker.

Singapore’s most significant geographical problem is fresh water access. However they are more than caplae of littoral manoeuvre to capture what they need from Johore.

Should hostilities breakout against Malaysia for example, Singapore would (in my opinion) strike the Malaysian airbases in the hope of destroying as many aircraft on the ground as physically possible. They would simultaneously advance across the causeways taking the fight to the enemy thus minimizing collateral damage to Singapore densely populated areas.

The SAF would not advance across the causeways as this would lead to their destruction. But would carry out amphibious assaults to secure the causeways and all sides of the Johore straits.

Singapore’s technological edge will hopefully give it an advantage, making up for there lack of experience in actual combat operations. I doubt there is a single serving officer or NCO that has ever been in the line of fire!

Not exposed to line of fire? Big deal... The whole point of military training is to indoctrinate you to combat. There have been many cases of combat virgins who fought hard and sure the first time bullets were fired at them. Considering none of their potential regional enemies have veteran armies either this is immaterial.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Most of Singapore’s infrastructure is to the south (except Changi) and the urban areas to the north would just create even more of a complex barrier for any attacker.

At a FIBUA level I'd argue that Singapore has the advantage anyway. eg the CBD with its layout of buildings with open below ground floor level areas would be a nightmare to take. Remove the fast food and shopping areas and you have an instant bivouac area, redundant logistics points and a pre-existing EMA that could sustain their forces for a long time....

Also, the main roads leading in from Changi to the CBD are an armoured vehicles and tank killing teams delight.... They have an advantage in being able to manouvre and deploy relatively quickly due to infrastructure design. eg for anyone to take out the main highway into the CBD would take a considerable amount of arty or air support, and I can't see them losing dominance of the air environment. and it wouldn't take much to neutralise the bridge to Johore...

 

[riksavage]

Singapore urban areas may offer the defenders excellent defensive opportunities, but the Singapore Government will not want to end up with a city that looks like Grozny! It would be catastrophic for the civilian population, never mind the economy! Take the fight to enemy, destroy their land and infrastructure, not your own – the best form of defense is attack blah, blah, blah. Singapore’s not like Russia where the Government and the armaments industry can be relocated far from the front-line.

Singapore currently does not have enough lift to move or sustain sizable numbers of troops for a sea-borne landing. The causeway bridges are relatively short in length and would be vital in sustaining an expeditionary force. Seizing the bridges and destroying the Malaysian air-force would be my number one priority.

 

[gary1910]

Singapore currently does not have enough lift to move or sustain sizable numbers of troops for a sea-borne landing. The causeway bridges are relatively short in length and would be vital in sustaining an expeditionary force. Seizing the bridges and destroying the Malaysian air-force would be my number one priority.

I believe you are wrong in this respect, SG has plenty of raft/floating bridges to cross over the narrow Strait of Johor with ease.

The oldest is the Almond aka Ribbon raft/floating bridge, then later we added in Comet aka M2B and now just added M3 which was displayed in the recent NDP.

All these enable us to pour a large qty of equipment and troop to Johor w/o the need of the causeway, of course after securing Johor, the causeway will be useful but not having it will not break our supply link.

 

[paskal]

War of attrition with insurgency tactics???

And the SAF will be using vast superior RSAF with large number SEAD capable F-16D Blk52/52+ and F-15SG to take MY apart piece by piece.

MY will eventually ask UN to intervene, becos if MY don't, there will be nothing left to recover from!!!!nfloorl:




;sarcasm:
Yes , SG cannot create a buffer zone all the way to Thai-MY border, with it's vastly superior hardwares conscript based army but as you said and I quote:


So we will just create 300km buffer zone all the way up to KL, afterall a vastly superior hardwares conscript based army can only do so much!!!nfloorl:

Are we seeing 2 typical Malaysians here?

One is a total ignorant, and the other just want act ignorant so to spew out nationalistic BS!!!

I will try to avoid all these BS as the neutrals here with their unbiased and informed postings are already doing well.

stop trying to just say that malaysia can be taken that easily:unknown
you should know that malaysia have an armed forces.....
youre talking like SAF will take a walk in the park to KL THAT EASILY:
you should now that malaysia have a quite respactable armed forces in the region ok...
i admit singapore has more gunz but that would not lead to total victory:unknown

i will lay it out to you ok....:

the first think malaysia will do is to destroy the johor bridge so that singapore army cannot enter....
the next think singapore will do is by sending their air force
i will admit malaysia will get to suffer a few blows at this moment but ill tell you it wont be that easy.....
once that happen the un will realise and will take action against singapore.
malaysia will defence their water fully as they got advantage against singapore navy.
singapore will be stuck as they cannot enter johor by land and sea.
the next think youll se malaysia astros will be shooting at singapore greatly and happily.
the un will arrive then singapore will or must surrender or worst will come the end

singapore is strong inthis region.
but i dont think they can counquer any state here .
if you see at vietnam.
they never gave up to the us til the end
the only way you can counquer malaysia is by having a force that is around at least 7x bigger than malaysia:

please think properly before you write
a war will not occur that easily especially with the FDPA and malaysia good ties with singapore right now!

stick to this forrum can [singapore defence themselves]!
not can singapore attack states!

 

[weasel1962]

Re:

Actually, I believe MY is slightly more advanced than SG in terms of satellite technology. With Astros and a lot of Govt incentives assisting in satellite tech has made a difference whereas SG's Govt is still living in commercial telecom stoneage (ie focus on sub cables even though bandwidth is probably faster).

DSO (as the name implies) does have something called the X-SAT in progress. However, ATSB has already launched 1 micro-sat (Tiungsat as mentioned) and another Razaksat is on the way. Primarily, ATSB is learning through JVs whereas DSO (and Crest) is very much internalised.

http://www.razaksat.com/razaksat.asp

I'm not so sure as to the utility of such micro-sat in military application when google maps practically got imagery for the whole of SG already. They're probably thinking of 24/7 pictoral coverage.