Can singapore hold its own?

[Red]

Not personally mate. The fact is that they have absoloutly no expeditionary capability, so i dont think their a threat to anyone beyonde their own airspace and close neighbors. As far as "doing it first", AEW and armour may have been pecrued first, but look at the quality. I'd take MESA over an E2 or Gulf stream AEW (ERIEYE i think?) any day.

It is not the Erieye. It`s the Israeli Phalcon system. The same system both China and India want so badly.

I believe the Phalcons are on par or better than the MESA. The South Koreans opted for it but they(or the Israelis) could not get the right approvals from the US government. Unfortunately, we do not have figures to compare.

Im not so sure what you mean by expeditionary capabilties. If you are talking about immediately landing a force of 2000 plus troops across the ocean from air and sea,(say from Singapore to East Timor)
then it is a `yes'. If you are talking about waging a complete war using the bulk of the SAF`s resources immediately (using that same distance), then it is a `no'. However, the RSAF maintains the capability to hit anywhere in SEA.

But if you are talking about an invasion of Malaysia using the bulk of our forces(which means crossing the straits) and capturing key strategic islands around Singapore, then it is a `definitive' yes.

Of course, it helps more if you have more ships and planes. But like you say, our focus remains in SEA.

Why would Australia be concerned? I can tell you that Singaporeans regard Australians very warmly. Even better than the US I think. Many have families there. Just ask around. If you have troubles with other ASEAN states, you can find a helping hand from Singapore.

Besides, we are too small to harbour thoughts about territorial expansion. It`s just for our own defence.

Man, I just woke from a bad flight. My head`s spinning.

 

[Red]

Did I say "overnight"? Did I say no warning?

i said "least" as in - compared to a Roayl Navy sailing towards Falklands - get it?

Dont be ridiculous with semantics Chino. When you say that these two countries can attack Singapore with the least warning, it implies that Singapore would not know soon enough. That does not happen in this age. Especially with neighbours.

How is the Falklands comparable to Singapore`s situation ? The war`s right here.

And honestly, your comments would make more sense if the country that is purportedly trying to attack Singapore is half-way across the world. In which case, it would be harder to prove its intentions.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Time to settle down. Some of the comments occurring make me question how much research has been applied before penning the response.

A bit of research, and maybe some history lessons would appear to be in order....

 

[Red]

Back in 2002 following the arrest of suspected terrorist sympathizers in Singapore we conducted a survey amongst our key multinational clients. They made it VERY CLEAR they would withdraw senior expatriate personnel from key positions if a terrorist attack took place in Singapore. Should a terrorist campaign run for an extended period of time they would also consider relocating their regional offices to HK or Aus. This would have a severe impact upon the economy of Singapore, the same way it would have a severe impact upon any other international city.

We conducted the same survey following the Bali and Australian Embassy bombings in Indonesia. The response there was far less ‘knee jerk’, due to the fact that the majority we spoke to had adapted over time to the continued and ever present threat of terrorism. As simple matter of conditioning, they had subconsciously become far more risk tolerant.

Singapore, unlike Indonesia, is a regional hub for multinational companies, particularly in Oil & Gas, Investment Banking and the IT sector. You remove the ability for these entities to function in a safe and secure way (terrorism or war) and they will relocate to a safer location such as Hong Kong, which offers the same advantages (excellent infrastructure, low taxation, law and order).

Your comment about Israel is irrelevant; Israel is NOT a regional hub for the Middle East, like Singapore is a regional hub for Asia.

I have not seen such a survey. Well, what would you want them to say in a survey like this ? They would of course prod any government to take firm and effective action.

I find your reasoning about investors being conditioned in Bali and not in Singapore kindda wierd though. If the same investors would tolerate the climate in Bali, they would do the same in Singapore. Like I said, it is all about money.

I was not talking about Israel as a hub but a normal country. Countries and economies do not simply shut down because of such attacks. In fact, they are more likely to bounce back. Take a look at London.

I am not saying it will not make investors leave. Some could. I am saying they would not leave in a mad rush or stampede simply like so with so much invested here. They will wait and see what happens subsequently. Of course, if it is to end up like the situation in Somalia, which sane investor would stay except for crazed weapon dealers or drug peddlers.

 

[paskal]

ok...ok

.........................

 

[paskal]

It is not the Erieye. It`s the Israeli Phalcon system. The same system both China and India want so badly.

I believe the Phalcons are on par or better than the MESA. The South Koreans opted for it but they(or the Israelis) could not get the right approvals from the US government. Unfortunately, we do not have figures to compare.

Im not so sure what you mean by expeditionary capabilties. If you are talking about immediately landing a force of 2000 plus troops across the ocean from air and sea,(say from Singapore to East Timor)
then it is a `yes'. If you are talking about waging a complete war using the bulk of the SAF`s resources immediately (using that same distance), then it is a `no'. However, the RSAF maintains the capability to hit anywhere in SEA.

But if you are talking about an invasion of Malaysia using the bulk of our forces(which means crossing the straits) and capturing key strategic islands around Singapore, then it is a `definitive' yes.

Of course, it helps more if you have more ships and planes. But like you say, our focus remains in SEA.

Why would Australia be concerned? I can tell you that Singaporeans regard Australians very warmly. Even better than the US I think. Many have families there. Just ask around. If you have troubles with other ASEAN states, you can find a helping hand from Singapore.

Besides, we are too small to harbour thoughts about territorial expansion. It`s just for our own defence.

Man, I just woke from a bad flight. My head`s spinning.

hahahaha....
very funny taking over malaysia
first thing they sign the FDPA
and i dont think singapore is capable of defeating malaysia in war...
as you can see singapore bought their weapons mostly for attacking while malaysia buy for defending....
i admit singapore air force outnumber malaysia by the ratio of 2:1
do anyone of u now that malaysia got RVV-AV aktif that the russians say is better than the american made amraams,r-73,R 27R1 aktif missle for air to air
and KH 29T,KH29E,KH-29L FOR PASKAU TO USE TO MARK THEIR TARGETS like the israeli did at syria,KH-31A,KH59 ME,KAB 500 KR,KAB 1500 KR,AND THREE STARTEGIC BOMBS OFAB 100-120.OFAB250-270, AND FAB-500.

THAT WILL MAXIMIZE THEIR AIR FORCE CAPPIBILITIES FOR SURE!!

 

[barra]

Are any other Australians concerned that the Singaporean defence forces seem to be leading the way in regional force capabilities......? (AEW, SPA, Combat Aircraft, Leopards [2A4] etc). I understand the rationale as to why they have it, but why are they doing it first?

Brett.

I think Singapores attitude to it's defence and the capabilities required to carry it out can be traced back to its experience in WW2. As part of the British Empire they were content to rely on Britain & Commonwealth forces for their defence. Of course the Japanese overan the island and the result was a massive purge of the local Chinese population and harsh Japanese occupation for 3 -4 years. So who can blame them for not wanting to make the same mistakes again?

They are a wealthy country who can afford modern kit in reasonable numbers and quite simply their neighbours can't match them. This is probably were the resentment comes from. Australia definitely has nothing to fear from Singapore, it has probably been our closest regional allie in SEA over the last 10 -20 years.

Hooroo

 

[gf0012-aust]

whats funny about it?

singapore has one of the most sophisticated elint and sigint harvesting capabilities in the region - they are a golden mile ahead of malaysia in this area.

singapore have their own wild weasels - where has malaysia got organic or reciprocal capability?

singapore has superior organic battlespace management. what individual assets does Malaysia have that can concurrently track 250+ threat objects? - and she has multiple assets able to do this.

singapore will have AESA assets on a proven combat platform.

singapore has organic phased array management systems on her airwarfare management assets

ie, singapore has a systems based military. anyone who defines capability by specific platforms and not factoring in systems response capability is living in a pre 1991 warplanning environment.

the reality is that its not in either countries interest to be hostile with each other.

you seem to forget that the 5PDA was signed because both Malaysia and Singapore wanted commonwealth support against Indonesia.

hahahaha....
very funny taking over malaysia
first thing they sign the FDPA
and i dont think singapore is capable of defeating malaysia in war...
as you can see singapore bought their weapons mostly for attacking while malaysia buy for defending....
i admit singapore air force outnumber malaysia by the ratio of 2:1
do anyone of u now that malaysia got RVV-AV aktif that the russians say is better than the american made amraams,r-73,R 27R1 aktif missle for air to air
and KH 29T,KH29E,KH-29L FOR PASKAU TO USE TO MARK THEIR TARGETS like the israeli did at syria,KH-31A,KH59 ME,KAB 500 KR,KAB 1500 KR,AND THREE STARTEGIC BOMBS OFAB 100-120.OFAB250-270, AND FAB-500.

THAT WILL MAXIMIZE THEIR AIR FORCE CAPPIBILITIES FOR SURE!!

 

[battlensign]

I think Singapores attitude to it's defence and the capabilities required to carry it out can be traced back to its experience in WW2. As part of the British Empire they were content to rely on Britain & Commonwealth forces for their defence. Of course the Japanese overan the island and the result was a massive purge of the local Chinese population and harsh Japanese occupation for 3 -4 years. So who can blame them for not wanting to make the same mistakes again?

They are a wealthy country who can afford modern kit in reasonable numbers and quite simply their neighbours can't match them. This is probably were the resentment comes from. Australia definitely has nothing to fear from Singapore, it has probably been our closest regional allie in SEA over the last 10 -20 years.

Hooroo

Hey Barra.
I guess its just a little bit of envy on my part .....(seeing the possibilities from a country with 1/4 or so of our Population... ). As I said, I understand the reasoning why, I just wish Australia was the regional leader in all matters defence . I am definately not concerned by Singapore (History, FPDA etc), and am perfectly happy with them possessing a strong military.

Brett.

 

[Schumacher]

On paper at least, in the very unlikely event of hostilities, S'pore should have little trouble taking over big parts of Southern Malaysia & some Indonesian island to the south some of which are bigger than S'pore.
Cutting off Indon reinforcements to those island should be well within the capabilities of SAF.
I suspect the outcome of such hostilities & ,importantly, whether S'pore can hold on to those gains long term will be determined much more by the global geopolitical scene at the time than by military actions.

 

[paskal]

whats funny about it?

singapore has one of the most sophisticated elint and sigint harvesting capabilities in the region - they are a golden mile ahead of malaysia in this area.

singapore have their own wild weasels - where has malaysia got organic or reciprocal capability?

singapore has superior organic battlespace management. what individual assets does Malaysia have that can concurrently track 250+ threat objects? - and she has multiple assets able to do this.

singapore will have AESA assets on a proven combat platform.

singapore has organic phased array management systems on her airwarfare management assets

ie, singapore has a systems based military. anyone who defines capability by specific platforms and not factoring in systems response capability is living in a pre 1991 warplanning environment.

the reality is that its not in either countries interest to be hostile with each other.

you seem to forget that the 5PDA was signed because both Malaysia and Singapore wanted commonwealth support against Indonesia.

you should now that malaysia has tiungsat-1 satelite for their defence cappibilities and one more coming made in russia.....
and btw i never said anything about singapore weaker than malaysia
im just defending my statement that singapore could not counquer malaysia....

 

[gf0012-aust]

you should now that malaysia has tiungsat-1 satelite for their defence cappibilities and one more coming made in russia.....

one satellite?

is it a targetting satellite?
is it a surveillance satellite?
is it in relative fixed locatiom?
is it in LEO or higher orbit (see first 2 questions)
in really rough terms, one satellite means a 2 hr viewing slot or path every 24hrs. one satellite is therefore almost useless as a combat asset unless there are whole lot of other variables considered
what bandwidth is there for comms?
who commands and controls is? ie what space based management does Malaysia have?

arguing that Malaysia has one satellite and is ELINT/SIGINT/COMINT capable is a looooooooooooooooong stretch of the imagination.

once again, its about systems and integration - not about individual platforms.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Still GF one has to wonder wether they have the logistical capability to effectively wage a war of agression up the malaysian peninsular (if for some stupid reason they decided too). They have a fearsome, integrated, networked, air force with a potent orbat (in terms of platfomrs), formidable ISR capability (unmatched in the region untill Wedgetail hits the scene), and service wide systems integration. I have no doubt they would win an air war with malaysia in a matter of hours. However a true expeditionary capability is a whole other kettle of fish.

Hey Barra.
I guess its just a little bit of envy on my part .....(seeing the possibilities from a country with 1/4 or so of our Population... ). As I said, I understand the reasoning why, I just wish Australia was the regional leader in all matters defence . I am definately not concerned by Singapore (History, FPDA etc), and am perfectly happy with them possessing a strong military.

Brett.

I wouldnt go crying about it, its not as if they are the regional leaders and we are back in the stone age. Just look at home grown programes of the likes of Collins and JORN, hardly backward are we? Come 2010 the RAAF is going to undergo a quantum leap in capability with the introduction of F18F & Wedgetail (i hope). So i wouldnt consider us anything less than on par with RSAF or the SDF as a whole.

 

[gf0012-aust]

However a true expeditionary capability is a whole other kettle of fish.

singapore is not geared for expeditionary warfare - they're geared for overmatch at strike.

I wouldnt go crying about it, its not as if they are the regional leaders and we are back in the stone age. Just look at home grown programes of the likes of Collins and JORN, hardly backward are we? Come 2010 the RAAF is going to undergo a quantum leap in capability with the introduction of F18F & Wedgetail (i hope). So i wouldnt consider us anything less than on par with RSAF or the SDF as a whole.

just a small note, we've done some tech transfer into singapore wrt sub warfare technology.

 

[Mr Ignorant]

Singapore, for the moment, appears to have a defence policy shaped to be pre-emptive should the conditions arise, or deterring in times of peace. The Navy is one of the best in the region, the Air Force is second to none, and the Army has tanks and heavy artillery. This, in terms of men and materiel, augments their military presence in the archipelago, and the various treaties they have in place, evidences this discreet show of superiority.

In terms of its immediate neighbours in a purely hypothetical scenario, the Singaporean armed forces, on paper as a few have pointed out, can only engage in some form of limited warfare, before it is broken. There is no policy for protracted conflicts in the Singaporean military mind, namely because, any strategy will be difficult to implement considering the geopolitics in place.

It is conceivable for the Singapore armed forces to roll in to Kuala Lumpur, in strength, with few problems too encounter, but planning, as is so often the case, cannot contain elements of insurgency, or guerilla operations to which the Malaysian Armed Forces is an exponent of. There is so much a small nation like Singapore can do in this scenario - therefore this strategy, if ever discussed, is redundant, right from the outset.

The Malaysians and Indonesians, on the other hand understands and countenances, Singapore's order of battle. Defence planners in military schools across the 2 nations, share no concern whatsoever with regards to Singapore's defence policies. Militaries of both these nations, have adopted a policy purely in defence of their interests and their homeland. Militias are widely used and controlled by elements of the security services in both countries, and Indonesia in particular must deal with further "balkanization" in view of the difficulties experienced in Aceh, Maluku and Irian Jaya, not to mention the humiliating "abandonment" of East Timur. Likewise, Malaysia is not interested in the "Singapore question"; It's defence policies reveal this particular strand of thought permeating the higher reaches of it's military branches.

Current Malaysian concerns do not lie in the Straits, but further east along the Celebes Sea. A huge Naval Base is planned for Semporna, and current formations in Sarawak, are suitably complemented with added Paramilitary police presence. The effect of these large formations in Borneo (2 GOF Brigades and 2 Army Brigades) counterbalances any notions of pre emptive strike or any local discontent.

The issue is no longer Singapore. The small City State must live within the confines of its peculiar politico military culture, and perhaps sooner or later, it would put in another application to reunite with the other 14 States, it calls Malaysia.

 

[paskal]

one satellite?

is it a targetting satellite?
is it a surveillance satellite?
is it in relative fixed locatiom?
is it in LEO or higher orbit (see first 2 questions)
in really rough terms, one satellite means a 2 hr viewing slot or path every 24hrs. one satellite is therefore almost useless as a combat asset unless there are whole lot of other variables considered
what bandwidth is there for comms?
who commands and controls is? ie what space based management does Malaysia have?

arguing that Malaysia has one satellite and is ELINT/SIGINT/COMINT capable is a looooooooooooooooong stretch of the imagination.

once again, its about systems and integration - not about individual platforms.

dude its a defend satelite...
and btw theres one more coming by the name of 'RAHMAT' if im not mistaken...
its publish everywhere in malaysian news papers...
it is said to be launch at the end of 2008
and it is for geographical something and for the malaysian defends that goes the same for the tiungsat-1.....
to be honest with you if by space technology malaysia is better than singapore....
malaysia will be the first country in south east asia to send and astronout at space k!

 

[gf0012-aust]

dude its a defend satelite...
and btw theres one more coming by the name of 'RAHMAT' if im not mistaken...
its publish everywhere in malaysian news papers...
it is said to be launch at the end of 2008
and it is for geographical something and for the malaysian defends that goes the same for the tiungsat-1.....
to be honest with you if by space technology malaysia is better than singapore....
malaysia will be the first country in south east asia to send and astronout at space k!

Stop being ridiculous. There is no comparison on the ewarfare and elint capability between malaysia and singapore.

good grief, they are a golden mile ahead of malaysia at an ewarfare systems level.

explain to everyone what ewarfare systems integration that malaysia has? compared to Singapore and Sth Korea? Nada, Zilch, Zip, Zero.


Get realistic and take your nationalistic sunglasses off.

 

[paskal]

Stop being ridiculous. There is no comparison on the ewarfare and elint capability between malaysia and singapore.

good grief, they are a golden mile ahead of malaysia at an ewarfare systems level.

explain to everyone what ewarfare systems integration that malaysia has? compared to Singapore and Sth Korea? Nada, Zilch, Zip, Zero.


Get realistic and take your nationalistic sunglasses off.

whatever believe what you wanna beliebe but to mee and all malaysians i think malaysia a ahead than singapore in military satelites!
and you should still remember the fact that malaysia will be the first sout asian country to go to space k!
to be specific the first muslim to go to space

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

whatever believe what you wanna beliebe but to mee and all malaysians i think malaysia a ahead than singapore in military satelites!
and you should still remember the fact that malaysia will be the first sout asian country to go to space k!
to be specific the first muslim to go to space

To be fair being ahead in a single capability does not win you the war, especially in this case of 'satelites". What tyoe of satelite is it, Elint, EO/IR or Comms??? How exactly is it going to effect a war with singapore???? The fact still stands that in total warfighting capability singapore is miles ahead of malaysia, satleite or not. And seing how this thread in general and discussion on particular was concerning specific war fighting capability, and not a nationalistic measuring contest i'm wondering how relevent a malaysian in space or in fact your last two posts are?????

 

[gf0012-aust]

whatever believe what you wanna beliebe but to mee and all malaysians i think malaysia a ahead than singapore in military satelites!

it's not what i believe, its an issue of comparing capability at a systems level, so, again - how? give me a technical reason, not an emotional one.

and you should still remember the fact that malaysia will be the first sout asian country to go to space k!

so what? you're sending a passenger, you haven't developed your own space program.

to be specific the first muslim to go to space

and what relevance does that have to this topic?