RMAF Future; need opinions

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Malaysia plans software upgrade for its F/A-18s
Dzirhan Mahadzir JDW Correspondent
Kuala Lumpur

Malaysia is upgrade the software systems on its six F/A-18C and two F/A-18D Hornets to allow them to fully utilise the latest weapon systems for the aircraft.

The upgrade is expected to cost up to USD17 million and is to be completed by 2011. Work will be carried out by a US Navy-appointed contractor as the upgrade programme will be handled by the US Department of Defense under the Foreign Military Sales programme.

The upgrades are necessary since Malaysia's F/A-18s have not undergone any software upgrade since their delivery in 1997 and thus are not fully able to utilise weapon systems introduced for the Hornets since then, such as the Advanced Medium Range Air to Air Missile (AMRAAM) and the Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM).

Malaysia currently has less than two dozen AMRAAMs in storage on US territory; it will bring them into the country this year. Malaysia has also sent a request for an undisclosed number of JDAMs that is currently pending with the US.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BTW, 20 AMRAAMs were ordered in 2005.
Okay, I see a problem with this article. AFAIK Malaysia does not have ANY F/A-18C Hornets. The Hornet models Malaysia has are the two-seater -D version, of which there are eight in inventory. Not sure where info that there are six -C version Hornets came from? :unknown

-Cheers
 

Red

New Member
More importantly, if one is planning to trade-in existing inventory for new aircraft, would anyone consider upgrading the existing inventory?

Looks like people will have to wait a little longer for the E/F version.
Stop-gap I suppose since the earliest they will order the Superbugs, if any, is next decade due to the ninth(or tenth) five year plans. Or am i wrong there?

At any rate, im surprised that have not upgraded the Hornets earlier to carry the latest weapons. Mahatir?
 

qwerty223

New Member
what about this?
$167.1M for Software Upgrades to Multinational F-18 Hornet Fleets

Boeing subsidiary McDonnell Douglas Corp. in St. Louis, MO received a $167.1 million modification to a previously awarded cost-plus-fixed-fee contract for additional support services required to enhance the F/A-18 Weapons System with a series of System Configuration Sets. For more on what "system configuration set" software is and why it matters, read this Hill AFB article on the subject.

These enhancements will support F/A-18 aircraft operated by the US Navy & Marine Corps, and by the Governments of Canada, Australia, Spain, Kuwait, Switzerland, Finland and Malaysia. Work will be performed in St. Louis, Mo. (95%) and at the Naval Air Systems Command, Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division, China Lake, CA (5%) and is expected to be complete in September 2007. The Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division in China Lake, CA issued the contract.

Link
There is another report i read long time ago.

And the software is not a new thing, those software had already been used by US Navy.Load in software need 3 years to complete? These software must be sophisticate enough to launch hornets to Mars!
 

Magoo

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
Okay, I see a problem with this article. AFAIK Malaysia does not have ANY F/A-18C Hornets. The Hornet models Malaysia has are the two-seater -D version, of which there are eight in inventory. Not sure where info that there are six -C version Hornets came from? :unknown
Correct - eight D models only, roughly equivalent to the USMC 'Night Attack' F/A-18Ds.

This is not news - all international customers of an aircraft are more or less obliged to take software upgrades when they're released otherwise risk becoming unsupportable. This doesn't apply to all upgrades for all customers, and may depend on the weapons kit and other upgrades (i.e. new FLIR and other sensors, new cockpit displays etc).

The Malaysians have said they will only buy Super Hornets if they can have AESA, a scenario unlikely to be approved by the US Govt.

Cheers

Magoo
 

paskal

New Member
SUKHOI SU-30 MKM WEAPONS:


AIR TO AIR MISSLE.....

RVV-AV ACTIVE[R-77]
R-73
R 27R1


AIR TO GROUND MISSLE.......

KH-29T
KH29 TE
KH-29L
KH-31A
KH-31P
KH-59 ME
KAB 500 KR
KAB 1500 KR

STATEGIC BOMBIMNG BOMB......

OFAB 100-120
OFAB 250-270
FAB 500

AND A NORMAL GSH-1 WITH A CALIBER OF 30MM:nutkick

this weapons will also be equipped to all malaysians mig-29:D
 

qwerty223

New Member
SUKHOI SU-30 MKM WEAPONS:


AIR TO AIR MISSLE.....

RVV-AV ACTIVE[R-77]
R-73
R 27R1


AIR TO GROUND MISSLE.......

KH-29T
KH29 TE
KH-29L
KH-31A
KH-31P
KH-59 ME
KAB 500 KR
KAB 1500 KR

STATEGIC BOMBIMNG BOMB......

OFAB 100-120
OFAB 250-270
FAB 500

AND A NORMAL GSH-1 WITH A CALIBER OF 30MM:nutkick

this weapons will also be equipped to all malaysians mig-29:D
Oh, can you share your source?

BTW the last sentence is "this"(the gun) or "these"(whole list)?
and which version will we recieve, i mean the RVV-AE, "Active" means infra red?
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
SUKHOI SU-30 MKM WEAPONS:


AIR TO AIR MISSLE.....

RVV-AV ACTIVE[R-77]
R-73
R 27R1


AIR TO GROUND MISSLE.......

KH-29T
KH29 TE
KH-29L
KH-31A
KH-31P
KH-59 ME
KAB 500 KR
KAB 1500 KR

STATEGIC BOMBIMNG BOMB......

OFAB 100-120
OFAB 250-270
FAB 500

AND A NORMAL GSH-1 WITH A CALIBER OF 30MM:nutkick

this weapons will also be equipped to all malaysians mig-29:D
The problem is that even though this looks like a nice set of weapons, it really isn't all that impressive. For example, no satellite guided bomb. Most of the PGMs are from a long time ago.
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
Malaysia’s Long Wait for Super Hornets Continues
By JASBIR SINGH, KUALA LUMPUR
Posted 01/15/07 13:55

One of the most watched modernization programs in Malaysia — the proposed replacement of the Royal Malaysian Air Force F/A-18D Hornet fighter jets with the newer F/A-18F Super Hornets — remains in limbo because of other funding priorities, including adding new capabilities for the Navy and Army.
Malaysia has had its eight F/A-18Ds since 1997, and began discussions with Boeing about six years ago on acquiring F/A-18Fs, yet the talks have been fruitless.

The program remains stuck on the Air Force’s wish list due to funding pressures caused by the armed forces’ multibillion-dollar equipment renewal program implemented over the past few years. When asked earlier this year, the now-retired Air Force chief, Gen. Nik Ismail Nik Mohamed, said the service was committed to acquiring the Super Hornet, but only when funding becomes available.

A current cost estimate for the potential Super Hornet buy is not available. However, the government already has spent more than 15 billion Malaysian ringgit ($4.3 billion) this decade on major equipment purchases, and has allocated a total of 17 billion ringgit in its current five-year development plan for defense procurement.

During this time, the Malaysian government signed up to purchase, among other equipment, 48 PT-91M tanks from Poland’s Bumar Group to set up a tank division, two new Scorpene and one used Agosta 90 submarines, a squadron of Su-30MkM fighter jets from Russia and 11 Agusta A-109 light observation helicopters.

The submarine deal was worth 3.5 billion ringgit, while the tanks and associated equipment cost about $275 million. The A-109 helicopters were purchased for about $70 million, and the Su-30MkM deal was worth about $900 million.

The A-109 helicopters have entered into service and tank deliveries will begin this year.

Deliveries of 18 Su-30MkM multirole fighters will begin this year, to coincide with the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace exhibition in December. The remaining aircraft will enter into service over the next two years. Preparations also are being made to receive the submarines from France in 2009.

These investments do not include money spent on modernizing the armed forces as a whole, or long-overdue improvements to infrastructure.
Aside from having to pay for the new equipment, the Malaysian Armed Forces also have incurred large costs associated with setting up the infrastructure for these new assets.

The military has never operated tanks or submarines, and is spending large sums to provide the training and infrastructure needed to support the services.

Similarly, the Air Force has had to spend money to modernize an airbase to house the Su-30MkMs, put up the necessary supporting infrastructure, and train personnel to operate and support the aircraft.
It appears that the rising costs involved in acquiring and operating these three major assets is sinking other modernization programs, Defence Ministry and Air Force sources said.

For the Air Force, the recent multimillion-dollar expenditure to overhaul MiG-29N fighters and purchase eight Aermacchi MB-339CDs and 10 PC-7 MkII Turbo Trainer Aircraft is stretching its budget, the source said.

The Aermacchi and PC-7 trainers have been purchased to meet urgent Air Force needs to train more pilots and replace aircraft lost to crashes. Several smaller acquisition programs related to the Su-30MkM purchase are still pending and need funding allocations.

There also have been media reports that the Air Force will mothball its MiG-29N fleet to free fighter pilots to operate the Su-30MkMs. However, Defense Minister Najib Razak has denied that the MiG-29s will be retired and said additional pilots will be trained to meet requirements.

According to Air Force sources, the F/A-18D Hornet has served well and the service is committed to upgrading the aircraft to the newer versions.
There are plans to modernize the current fleet, pending funding availability. Until then, and the full induction of the Su-30MkM into the force, the Hornets will remain the main front-line aircraft for the Air Force.


The Solution is fairly simple. The purchase of Air Superiority Fighters by the Air Force and Defence Ministry, has been badly mishandled.

The RMAF is in a situation where it has 3 different types of Fighters - Meaning 3 different training packages, 3 different equipment and maintenance divisions, 3 different weapons platforms, 3 of everything else that follows. It is no wonder that the Malaysian Defence Ministry has cock it up so bad, that any further expenditure is just plain bonkers to Defence Officials in Putrajaya.

Not too long ago, a generation back, a wisened Air Chief and the incumbent Defence Minister, opted to purchase 90 plus A4 Skyhawks for the TUDM.

Where did we go so wrong with this one???? No one wants to admit that a mistake has been made, and as a result, we have pilots flying a mix bag of Fighter aircraft???!!!!

The obvious route in the early 90s would have been to decide on just one type of next generation fighter, and issue an expression of interest to foreign manufacturers. Considering that the TUDM is now partial to Russian aircraft, would it not have made sense to purchase 4-5 squadrons of SU 30MKM, after the evaluations had been made???!!!!

As it is, the RMAF might as well just sell those F/A 18s it has in stock to other Air Forces. The disadvantage of US made hardware like Fighter Aircraft for instance, is the cost of spiralling contracts, the difficulty in obtaining US made Missiles for the damn planes!!!, a culture of dependence, and god knows what sort of technology the Americans installed on those fighters, the things may just fall out of the sky at a click of the button, if Malaysia ever finds itself on the wrong side of the US. Take Indonesia for i.e - Couldn't even fly the F 16s it had.

What the Malaysians should now do is look LONG and HARD at the SU 30MKM, and if it turns out that they can get reciprocal agreements in place with the Russians and Indians on training, maintenance, missiles, and wargames, then they're better off sticking with just the one basic model, the SU 30 MKM.

If on the other hand they like the F/A 18s - then do the opposite to the inventory they have on Russia fighters.

But maintaining and operating 3 different fighters, from 3 very different Manufacturers - Only in Malaysia

RMAF needs restructuring and it needs it now - Get RID OF THE F/A 18s
 

caksz

New Member
Malaysia can't resell the F-18 without permission , if Malaysia don't want them anymore will US buy them or just let malaysia kept it and let it rust inside a hangar or junkyard risking it falling to anyone who want them.But I'll prefer selling the Mig and kept operate the F-18 and SU-30, never put the whole egg in a basket :p.
 

johngage

New Member
I would get rid of the MiG-29's which even with IFR is extremely limited in its range and very expensive to maintain. I would focus on buying more F/A-18D's (second hand) or just concentrating on purchasing more SU-30MKM's. I would also get rid of the Hawk 200's and put the money used for maintaining them to logistics (fuel, spare-parts, PGM's, AMRAAM...etc) for the SU-30's/F/A-18's. I would choose the Aermacchi MB-339CM. But the most important requirement would be to save up money for AEW aircraft.
 

Mr Ignorant

New Member
This whole thread has been about the RMAF capability and its order of battle. Many useful opinions and suggestions has been put forward and discussed with quality, but if its not too late for the sake of this discussion;

The Hawk family of aircraft should be moved to training bases, and complement the exisiting MB 339 and Pilatus C7s;

The F/A 18s, if it can't be sold due to contractual treaties and agreements in place, should be transferred together with it's pilots, to the Fleet Air Arm of the Navy, the TLDM;

The Mig 29s and SU 30s should be consolidated into existing squadrons, and augmented in number with further purchases;

That would be ideal in an ideal world, but lately nothing is ideal about our MAF.

Mr Ignorant
 

qwerty223

New Member
I would get rid of the MiG-29's which even with IFR is extremely limited in its range and very expensive to maintain. I would focus on buying more F/A-18D's (second hand) or just concentrating on purchasing more SU-30MKM's. I would also get rid of the Hawk 200's and put the money used for maintaining them to logistics (fuel, spare-parts, PGM's, AMRAAM...etc) for the SU-30's/F/A-18's. I would choose the Aermacchi MB-339CM. But the most important requirement would be to save up money for AEW aircraft.
Here I stand for our Fulcrums.
Let’s put the future complement issue aside, these MiGs are obviously a lavish to dump. Why? These MiGs' airframe is at the MLU age. If Falcon A/Bs are worth to MLU, why not an equivalent Fulcrum? Further more, with or without MLU, Flankers and Fulcrum share their armaments, not to mention the well established logistic sys behind them. Don’t forget that MiGs squadron has the best trained pilots in RMAF. Chose to break your own backbone and bets on something you were not that good in is a risk that never allow to be taken in such a case — national defence.

And your choice over the MiGs was also somewhat illogic. Acquiring more 2nd hand Hornet Ds is waste of time and money. You need time to deal with the Fulcrums, then more time to nego for Hornet Ds, not to mention you need another time frame to nego for upgrades, x3 times of simply MLU the Fulcrums! And Boeing is proposing E/Fs to the world and you are going use your cash to help other nations upgrade program instead of benefit your own?

I would say, keep them, make good use of them, squeeze ever last bit of potential of it. Meanwhile take your time to choose the best 4+ gen fighter.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
The F18's serviceability is like 88-100% whilst Mig serviceability is like 50-75% with 9% attrition losses. Which one is more worthwhile?
but the other issue is that Mig-29 and MKM both use Russian missiles, whereas F-18s use American services and such. Either way, not the smartest thing out there to purchase 3 class of 4th generation fighters.
 

aneep

New Member
The F18's serviceability is like 88-100% whilst Mig serviceability is like 50-75% with 9% attrition losses. Which one is more worthwhile?
dude, how old is this piece of "info"?
MiG-29N will stay, so is F/A-18Ds
both have been upgraded since entering service, it would be wasteful to decom them now

johngage,
MiG-29N extremely range limited? have u checked the distance between Malaysia and other countries?

-aneep-
 

gf0012-aust

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
dude, how old is this piece of "info"?

-aneep-
The numbers are pretty close to what RMAF crew have advised RAAF when we've had exercises together. Magoo or Barra might be able to add something to this.
 
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