Serbian Kotor-Class, Sava-Class, Heroj-Class, Mala-Class...

mic of orion

New Member
Strange as it may seem, but they are actually thinking of bringing these two Kotor FFGs to full NATO standards. There was a visit made by Greek navy personel in order to exmine these two vessels. According to some sources, they say that two Kotors are in a pretty good condition(I quote "only 30% of their tech resources spent"). According to the same sources, both Kotors may well end up being modernised to full NATO standards in Greek shipyards, and used as OPVs.
As for Mirnas... Well... There are far cheaper ways of patroling in-shore watters. They are to expensive to do that, and to small to be used for patroling the open watters of the Taranto gates. It seems pretty logical to me for MNs navy to dispose of them.

And as far as CroNavy is concerned, Mirna's are to be replaced with a new (cheaper to operate, and more roomier)design.
great stuff ragusian, btw if you have time visit this thread, http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=510592&page=15

we are looking for more contributors to help with the input, lol :D
I hate to be the only optimist, lol :)

if you are already registered there, tell me whats your nick.

thanx.

Great stuff with the Miran's btw, :)
 
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Ragusian

New Member
You wouldn't believe this, but it seems that Slovenia, a country with mere 43 km of coast line, is interested in Russian Projekt 20382 corvette. Damn! Pretty soon and they'll have a bigger and more modern navy than croatia's, and our sea is about 100 times the size of theirs, and our coastline about 130 times longer than Slovenia's. So, size doesn't matter after all...:eek:nfloorl: Crazy!:D :eek:nfloorl:
 

Ragusian

New Member
Just to add something new about Croatian navy. It seems that swedes are now offereing all 4 of their Goteborg class corvettes if we buy the gripen:D .
 

contedicavour

New Member
Just to add something new about Croatian navy. It seems that swedes are now offereing all 4 of their Goteborg class corvettes if we buy the gripen:D .
Quite a good deal navy-wise... but how many gripens should you buy to have the 4 Goteborgs ? Because air-force-wise second hand USAF ANG F16 MLU are still better value for money when money is tight

cheers
 

contedicavour

New Member
You wouldn't believe this, but it seems that Slovenia, a country with mere 43 km of coast line, is interested in Russian Projekt 20382 corvette. Damn! Pretty soon and they'll have a bigger and more modern navy than croatia's, and our sea is about 100 times the size of theirs, and our coastline about 130 times longer than Slovenia's. So, size doesn't matter after all...:eek:nfloorl: Crazy!:D :eek:nfloorl:
What is the source of this very surprising news ??
So far all that Slovenia has is an Israeli speedboat...

cheers
 

Ragusian

New Member
Quite a good deal navy-wise... but how many gripens should you buy to have the 4 Goteborgs ? Because air-force-wise second hand USAF ANG F16 MLU are still better value for money when money is tight

cheers
For now, only 12 planes are planned.
It is a rather good deal, but I'm wondering is there enuogh personnel to man all those ships.
With 4 domesticaly built corvettes/OPVs, and these 4 Goteborgs offered from swedes, we would have 8 corvettes + 3 FACms(as those are planned to stay in service beyond 2015, atleast 2 Kraljs), 4 Mirnas(or whatever ships replace them), 2xDBM(DBM-81 Krka and DBM-82 Cetina), 2xBS(BS-72 Andrija Mohorovicic and BS-73 Faust Vrancic), a class of small minehunters(LM-51 Korcula + 2 or 3 units), a class of bigger minehunters, and several smaller and bigger logistical ships...

What is the source of this very surprising news ??
So far all that Slovenia has is an Israeli speedboat...

cheers
Croatian newspapers. Interestingly enough, it seems that russians have also offered us P20382 ships, but we refused in favour of our own project.

Some news about airforce also - The running contestants for the "new" croatian multirole airplane are... new build MiGs-29(believe it or not, the russians are serious), new Gripens, Mirage F1s(modernised), used F-16s.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Ok so back to Gripen and F16 MLU, since I really don't believe MIG29 and used Mirage F1s stand a chance.

Regarding the navy, I imagine the arrival of the 4 Goteborg would accelerate the disposal of remaining Mirnas and probably modify the plans for armament of the locally built OPVs (which would be very lightly armed). Besides, the Goteborg are very good corvettes but are already approx 20 years old, so 1 may be left at port for spares.

cheers
 

mic of orion

New Member
Ok so back to Gripen and F16 MLU, since I really don't believe MIG29 and used Mirage F1s stand a chance.

Regarding the navy, I imagine the arrival of the 4 Goteborg would accelerate the disposal of remaining Mirnas and probably modify the plans for armament of the locally built OPVs (which would be very lightly armed). Besides, the Goteborg are very good corvettes but are already approx 20 years old, so 1 may be left at port for spares.

cheers
if 4 corvettes are to join, only 2 will be used, 2 might be used for spares.

Also, Croatia will go for Gripens, not Migs or any other aircraft, F16's where only option as Croatia would than replace them in 10-12 years time with F35's.

But now it came out that used F16 might not be so cheap after all, cost of F16 program (12 fighters Block 32 or 40) would exceed 500 million USD, us upgrading fighters to Block 50/52 would cost 10 million USD fighter, spares and supports including C3 would cost in region of another 30 million USD per fighter.

When this is all taken in to account, it would be cheaper to get JAS 39 C/D (E/F upgrade) at cost of 800 million USD and than have good fighter for next 25-30 years than to replace F16 in 10-12 years with another program in this case either F35 or Eurofighter, I strongly believe F35 would be one Croatia would go for.

I do think F35 is best fighter out there, and if it was out there on the market Croatia would probably go for it, but as first aircraft are expected to roll out in late 2015 and Croatian AF needs fighter before the end of 2011...

Difference of 6-7 years before Croatia would get its first F35 fighter are unsurmountable.

Alternative is to have Air Cover by an of the NATO members, Italy, or Hungary, but this would be an even costlier affair, costing Croatia in region of 120 million USD per year.

Only option for Croatia is new fighters.

BTW fighters purchase would be financed by a central government budget not defense budget, and Gripen Consortium is offering 5 year grace in payment period, 4 gun boats, and 150% offset deal.

Meaning Croatia will benefit greatly from Gripen deal and has only to loose from F16 deal.

Same goes for Russian Mig 35 offer, it is of no interest, Russians are offering nothing in return, no real programs or offsets and Mig's are not even compatible with NATO doctrine or needs.

Not to mention the fact Serbia has Mig 29's as well, and since Croatia considers Serbia as the only threat in the region, it would be bad sport to have same technology as your potential enemy.

Not that Serbia would dare to attack Croatia, but you never know.

Anyways, I strongly doubt Croatia will ever acquire anything from Russia when it comes to military technology, Only reason why Croatia is getting Mil 17S is bc of Russian debt to Croatia, Croatia is getting 10 Mil17S and these will replace all the mil' 8's in current use.

Croatia has plans to purchase NH90's sometimes in 2012-2015 time scale, 4-8 machines are sought for SAR/ASW role and 4-8 machines for Army and Peacekeeping ops.

Also additional light helicopters might be procured for needs of Army and Air Force, time will tell.

Croatia has needs for 50-58 helicopters, of which 4-8 ASW/SAR and about 100 fixed aircraft, this also includes 24 JAS 39 Gripens, these are long term needs - 2012-2020.
 

isthvan

New Member
Anyways, I strongly doubt Croatia will ever acquire anything from Russia when it comes to military technology, Only reason why Croatia is getting Mil 17S is bc of Russian debt to Croatia, Croatia is getting 10 Mil17S and these will replace all the mil' 8's in current use.
Nope. Mi171 will not replace Mi8mtv1s, Mi8 are undergoing refurbishment and modernization and they will stay in service. Mi171s are cheep, useful and reliable helicopters and IMHO that is probably smartest military purchase made by any Cro government...


Croatia has plans to purchase NH90's sometimesin 2012-2015 time scale, 4-8 machines are sought for SAR/ASW role and 4-8 machines for Army and Peacekeeping ops.

Also additional light helicopters might be procured for needs of Army and Air Force, time will tell.

Croatia has needs for 50-58 helicopters, of which 4-8 ASW/SAR and about 100 fixed aircraft, this also includes 24 JAS 39 Gripens, these are long term needs - 2012-2020.
This is first time I hear about plans for NH90 and IMHO this will happen when hell freezes over; currant modernization plans are already behind scedual and IMHO they will not finish currant modernization before 2015. And if we look at the history of military purchases we may be quite sure that any government will go for cheapest and not for best solution(and NH90 doesn't fit in the cheep category).
IMHO in 2012-2020 time line we will be fortunate if they purchase 12 more fighters(and I agree that jas-39 is best option) and replace Mi-8s and transport planes. Anything else is just wishful thinking...
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
This is first time I hear about plans for NH90 and IMHO this will happen when hell freezes over;
Same.

Eurocopter/EADS a list of countries as of August 2007 that have ordered helos (495 sold), with their other potential/options (for 255 helos). The same list has a listing of "expected customers" (10 nations for 391 helos), meaning countries that have expressed an interest in a certain number of NH90 or where Eurocopter is bidding for a contract.

Croatia is not listed among the "expected customers" on that even.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Offtopic but just to complement the discussion on Croatian fighters above, I just read on RID (an Italian magazine belonging to Monch publishing group) that Serbia is renovating its air force : the 5 MIG29 that are operational will be modernized, 6 others will be made operational, and all of the air force will be regrouped in 2 air wings with a mix of MIG29s, G4 SuperGaleb and MI8/17 helos.

cheers
 

isthvan

New Member
The article isn't clear, it seems that the 6 are grounded MIG29s that would be remade operational. However are the 6 former Yugoslav non operational MIGs or do they come from other countries, I don't know.

cheers
IIRC only 5 of 16 Mig-29s survived, rest have bean either destroyed by NATO or lost in crushes... Also I was not aware that those 5 are operational, they should still be waiting for refurbishment and modernization...
 

contedicavour

New Member
IIRC only 5 of 16 Mig-29s survived, rest have bean either destroyed by NATO or lost in crushes... Also I was not aware that those 5 are operational, they should still be waiting for refurbishment and modernization...
I've read that the Serbian ministry of defence has allocated funds to renovate the 5 MIG29s in acceptable condition; either some other planes survived or they will be imported then. Their air force is determined to have a dozen to be able to credibly patrol their airspace.

cheers
 

isthvan

New Member
I've read that the Serbian ministry of defence has allocated funds to renovate the 5 MIG29s in acceptable condition; either some other planes survived or they will be imported then. Their air force is determined to have a dozen to be able to credibly patrol their airspace.

cheers
AFAIK refurbishment and modernization of remaining 5 MiG29 should have started during this year but they aren't operational at this time. Those planes were in quite bad condition and since they were among first produced MiG29s they need quite serious refurbishment.
If they wont more airframes they will have to import them and in that case I wouldn't be surprised if those 6 imported examples reach operational status before those in original batch.

Ps.I have done little search on Serbian forums and it seams that 2 mig29s should be refurbished this year while 3 more will be refurbished during next year. I didn't find anything about plans to procure 6 more...
Only modernization will be new nav and com systems...
 
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Ragusian

New Member
Interesting news regarding Libyian interest in a new 62 meter stealth corvette project done by the same company that has produced their new patrol boats.
(doesn't have anything common with the new OPV/corvette for the croatian navy)
They have just received 4 new patrol boats, 2 they already have, 4 to go.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Interesting news regarding Libyian interest in a new 62 meter stealth corvette project done by the same company that has produced their new patrol boats.
(doesn't have anything common with the new OPV/corvette for the croatian navy)
They have just received 4 new patrol boats, 2 they already have, 4 to go.
Can you say more about these new patrol ships for the Libyan navy ? Unofficial rumours talked about Diciotti class Italian Coast Guard ships (based on Saettia) as the most likely order by the Libyans to replace the Combattante and Osa FACs

cheers
 
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