Syria says repulses Israeli jets

[merocaine]

Hmmmm were really disappearing down the rabbit hole here....

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/903398.html

Nuclear material, North Korea, Iranian training bases, hezzbullah arms shipments...

Does anyone else feel like there is a massive disinformation campain going on?

Frankly the arms shipment story sounds like rubbish, arms shipments into Lebanon are a daily occurance, why conduct an airstrike now and not before?
Why for the sake of a few easliy replaceable missles risk war with Syria? It doesent make sence.

The Korean Nuclear material aso sounds like a smoke screen.

The Iranian operating base sounds a little more plasible, perhaps the Iranians were moving in medium range missiles.....

As to what really happened :unknown

 

[wittmanace]

Hmmmm were really disappearing down the rabbit hole here....

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/903398.html

Nuclear material, North Korea, Iranian training bases, hezzbullah arms shipments...

Does anyone else feel like there is a massive disinformation campain going on?

Frankly the arms shipment story sounds like rubbish, arms shipments into Lebanon are a daily occurance, why conduct an airstrike now and not before?
Why for the sake of a few easliy replaceable missles risk war with Syria? It doesent make sence.

The Korean Nuclear material aso sounds like a smoke screen.

The Iranian operating base sounds a little more plasible, perhaps the Iranians were moving in medium range missiles.....

As to what really happened :unknown

i agree, the idea that there is so little news about syria "having nuclear material" and it being targeted is so unlikely. this wouldnt be the top news story? not likely, at all.

i agree on the aspect of the arms shipments, for the reson you mentioned. there seems to be something else going on....if it is explained in the way it has been, it seems it must be pretty big. north korean nuclear material showing up elsewhere...thatd be big big news if it were the case.

i wondeer what the real target was? perhaps from russia's silence we should guess there is something russia doesnt want to push out there? russian bought equipment being shipped?

perhaps the target was an individual, but the strikes actually failed their intended target? meshal or nasrallah intended targets?

 

[chunga1]

seems like they were targeting radar instalations imo...why else risk war....paving the way into iran

 

[Falstaff]

Today on CNN they said that the Israelis intended to send a clear message to Iran saying look, we can do things like that. That's why they didn't bother to even comment the incident.

 

[chunga1]

this is coming off very low key. i would have thought it would play much bigger

 

[radiosilence]

Iran a has a better air defence system than Syria. I think there is a misinformation campaign going on here.

 

[Grand Danois]

Iran a has a better air defence system than Syria. I think there is a misinformation campaign going on here.

Actually not. In terms of integration, overlap, density and competence, Syrias is much more capable. Irans air defences are essentially centered on point defence.

This is without taking the fighter element into account.

 

[radiosilence]

Actually not. In terms of integration, overlap, density and competence, Syrias is much more capable. Irans air defences are essentially centered on point defence.

This is without taking the fighter element into account.

Sure Iran relys on point defence using SAMs due the lack of a nationwide air defence network but they have TOR-M1 and reportedly aquire a number of units of S-300 which Syria doesn't have AFAIK.

 

[Grand Danois]

Sure Iran relys on point defence using SAMs due the lack of a nationwide air defence network but they have TOR-M1 and reportedly aquire a number of units of S-300 which Syria doesn't as far i know.

TOR-M1 without S-300 is of little impact. Sans a few volume search radars associated with the system, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Iran has (or will have) any S-300.

 

[radiosilence]

TOR-M1 without S-300 is of little impact. Sans a few volume search radars associated with the system, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Iran has (or will have) any S-300.

The source added Iran has also disclosed plans to acquire at least 50 Pantsyr-S1E systems and is currently now exploring potential options to realise this. He additionally confirmed that Iran has now acquired at least two longer-range S-300PMU-1/2 Favorit (SA-10c/d 'Grumble') air-defence systems.

janes

Iran procured an unidentified number of S-300PMU-1 missiles from Russia

missilethreat

 

[Grand Danois]

janes



missilethreat

I know of these. The idea stems from circular reference - the identification of said volume search radars - which has lead to the notion that the entire komplex has been acquired. Say it enough times and it becomes internet (or rumour) truth.

The reason why Iran is getting TORs and perhaps Pantsirs is analoguous to the Japanese asking the US Govt for Raptors. The reply they get is the USG will be happy to supply a fifth gen fighter, i.e. the JSF.

Iran has requested S-300 and is getting...

 

[radiosilence]

I know of these. The idea stems from circular reference - the identification of said volume search radars - which has lead to the notion that the entire komplex has been acquired. Say it enough times and it becomes internet (or rumour) truth.

The reason why Iran is getting TORs and perhaps Pantsirs is analoguous to the Japanese asking the US Govt for Raptors. The reply is that the USG will be happy to supply a fifth gen fighter, i.e. the JSF.

Iran has requested S-300 and is getting...

Janes and missilethreat are respected sources to be easily disregarded.

 

[Grand Danois]

Janes and missilethreat are respected sources.

Missilethreat has this as its source: “Iran Builds Up With Russian Firepower,” Flight International, 18 August 1993.

All it takes is jitters over spotting said radars and extrapolating to the entire komplex.

Janes summarises what "a source" has said - they have not approved. Also, often meaning is lost in translation - radars associated with a komplex or the entire komplex. For instance a German think tanks misinterpretation of the (Soviet-)Russian concept of "near space" is now used as reference for the S-400s ability to do exoatmospheric BM intercepts.

There is no hard evidence of S-300 komplexes in Iran.

 

[radiosilence]

There is no hard evidence of S-300 komplexes in Iran.

Should i take your word when you haven't provided any substancial evidence that the Iranians don't have the S-300 or go with 2 respected sources?

 

[Grand Danois]

Should i take your word when you haven't provided any substancial evidence that the Iranians don't have the S-300 or go with respected 2 source?

Well, there aren't any reports that Western intelligence has spotted said komplexes in Iran.

The geopolitical situation tells you they have not acquired it. Russia ain't going to supply it.

There are no primary sources that says that komplexes has been transferred. The sources there are, are old, based on speculation, extrapolations. There have been no repeat reports, except circular references. Indicating the early reports were rubbish.

Basically, there is nothing to suggest that Iran has S-300 komplexes.

That is my input to this, you may disagree, but it's as good as it gets.

Btw, the respected sources both relayed information, and only one endorsed it, by accepting another article as fact. So Janes doesn't run counter to what I said, and MT is a victim of circular reference.

 

[radiosilence]

Well, there aren't any reports that Western intelligence has spotted said komplexes in Iran

The "source" that janes is using could have been western intelligence. Janes have a lot of contacts within Western intelligence agencies.

The geopolitical situation tells you they have not acquired it. Russia ain't going to supply it.

Missilethreat reported that Iran procured S-300 in 1993.

 

[Grand Danois]

The "source" that janes is using could have been western intelligence. Janes have a lot of contacts within Western intelligence agencies.

Physically spotted, SIGINT, IMINT. Also, the source is close to the deal, i.e. involved:

A source close to the deal told Jane's that Russia has agreed to sell Damascus "some 50 Pantsyr-S1E systems", with initial deliveries set to begin later in 2007. Syria is understood to be receiving the Pantsyr-S1E equipped with the latest Roman I-Band fire control radar.

Western Intelligence supplying AD systems to Iran?

Missilethreat reported that Iran procured S-300 in 1993.

I have commented on MTs source. See above posts.

 

[radiosilence]

Physically spotted, SIGINT, IMINT. Also, the source is close to the deal, i.e. involved:

A source close to the deal told Jane's that Russia has agreed to sell Damascus "some 50 Pantsyr-S1E systems", with initial deliveries set to begin later in 2007. Syria is understood to be receiving the Pantsyr-S1E equipped with the latest Roman I-Band fire control radar.

Even better so its someone with intimate knowledge of the deal.

Btw, still waiting for your evidence that iranians haven't received the S-300 system.

 

[Grand Danois]

Even better so its someone with intimate knowledge of the deal.

Btw, still waiting for your evidence that iranians haven't received the S-300 system.

I can't demonstrate that something hasn't taken place, but I can show, that there are no signs of it having taken place. What runs to the contrary can be dismissed. The trail of the wrongly interpreted information that leads to your claim can be shown.

You brought forward the claim that Iran has S-300. It is you who must demonstrate that they have it. So far you have not done so.

Argumentatively, it is I, who begs the question.

 

[radiosilence]

You brought forward the claim that Iran has S-300. It is you who must demonstrate that they have it. So far you have not done so.

Ok i will make it as clear as possible.

Sure Iran relys on point defence using SAMs due the lack of a nationwide air defence network but they have TOR-M1 and reportedly aquire a number of units of S-300 which Syria doesn't have AFAIK

TOR-M1 without S-300 is of little impact. Sans a few volume search radars associated with the system, there is absolutely nothing to suggest that Iran has (or will have) any S-300.

The source added Iran has also disclosed plans to acquire at least 50 Pantsyr-S1E systems and is currently now exploring potential options to realise this. He additionally confirmed that Iran has now acquired at least two longer-range S-300PMU-1/2 Favorit (SA-10c/d 'Grumble') air-defence systems.

source:janes

Iran procured an unidentified number of S-300PMU-1 missiles from Russia

source: Missilethreat

So far i have provided evidence to my claim. You have tried to dismiss my sources but you have not provided any evidence except to take your word on it. Therefore it is you who have to provide evidence to back up your claim that Iran doesn't have S-300.