Can Russia regain it's Military Might?

[mic of orion]

Can Russia regain it's Military Might? in Military Aviation / Air Forces

Hope NOT, why, bc it is in my opinion very unstable country, I wold not like to think what would happen if Russia start to build up its arms and this leads to another cold war.

Naturally, it would end with everyone bing armed like there is no tomorrow, and poor will suffer as a result.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

well, these examples do beg the question...is this true? the reality is (and not to open a can of worms here but..) afghanistan and iraq are not victories...they are in fact not good examples for the topic. although the soviet union failed in afghanistan, one wonders if in fact a larger presence with perhaps lesser technology would be the answer in these conflicts. to maintain the tech edge in these conflicts, not much tech is needed...perhaps there is in fact overkill in the tech applied. look at the tech used, and then consider the success levels....clearly not satisfactory given the troop surges.

perhaps using the same funds for larger numbers would be more appropriate after all....ie..in this situation, use the funds to get the iraqi army 300 more bmps rather than the coalition forces deploying 100 more bradleys. this seems to be what could be applied in afghanistan for example. it would allow for greater presence, rather than a limited one with overkill tech. consider the limits of the uk presence in afghanistan or in basra in iraq...the complaints of lack of harriers in helmand some months ago, etc. would a higher number of lesser aircraft not perform a greater role here?

I think your reffering to the "technological ratio" of warfare. How much does technological advantage allow you to reduce the size of your force to achieve the same warfighting capabilty, or increase your warfighting capability with the same size. Comparing any two armed forces this "ratio" needs to be observed, does A's size plus technological advantage equate to more warfighting capability than B's size advantage and tech disadvantage??? This is true for any nation state war. However counter insurgency is a very diferent campaign as you are mostly policing rather than warfighting. What i mean by that is you are maintaining the security and stability of the population rather than meeting an enemy army in battle, doesnt mean you dont fight and die just like conventional warfighting. 2 different doctorines are needed.

However just because the US's technological advantage is less decisive in the counter insurgency campaigns of iraq and afghanistan, doesnt mean that the russians technological advantage, combined with its size would not be desisve against the chinese. Comparing the two campaigns is a moot point IMO.

Also the counter insurgency campaign is essentially a political one, and simply puting more boots on the ground is not going to fix the political problems that fule it. So bringing the troop surge up as an indication that perhaps alot more less capbable troops would have had a different outcome is also a moot point, because any change in militiary stratagy without a masive change in political and economic stratagy is worthless anyway. Look at how large AND technologicaly advanced the the US forces were in Vietnam. They had over a million men deployed. But they lost the political war and therefore lost the whole thing. This doesnt somehow mean that 100 000 men with todays tech would have somehow faired any better without a massive change in political strategy.

 

[XaNDeR]

Alright you want analysis , lets go

There is no such thing as a JH-6. There are H-6s, and at least five regiments of them (20-24 aircraft each) of H-6H and H-6M between the PLAAF and the PLANAF that are newly built acting as antiship and precision cruise missile carriers (using the electro optical guidance).

There is another five regiments of JH-7/7A between the two branches, also with similar weapons, and these can fly fast and low acting as low level interdictors. In addition to these weapons, it now appears that Beidou guided bombs and glide bombs are now operational (FT-2, LS-6) along with the LS-500 LGB.

My bad I meant J-7 ( Version of Mig-21 ) which is a shame for PLAAF.
They have 500+ , most of their airforce , furhermore the most aircraft PLAAF had in air simultaniasly would suprize you , their ariforce is nowhere near capable than any major power , nor they have tehnology ( Except the few they got from RUSSIA , i might remind you ) , nor training , no experience in any major conflict.

Why don't you figure out how many R-77 capable planes does Russia have now?

Just about 300 Mig-31's can , a few squadrons are updated to carry R-37, others are beeing upgraded so they can carry R-37 too ( 300km range good enough? ) .

Most of the 480 Mig-29's can carry R-77 , allthough they started upgrading them to Mig-35 which will also be able to carry them.. , So lets say about 350 Mig-29's can..

All the Su-34's , Su-35's and updated flankers can carry them , so thats about 50..

From Su-27's , do you know how many they have SM version?
from 460 flankers , about 150-250 can carry R-77 .


Thats about 900 Front line fighters capable of carrying the R-77 , how does that sound?
And from that 900 about 50-100 can carry R-37 ( range of 300km ).
So much for Chinese AWACS , if the battle just happened to happen.

China has about 100 Su-30MKK/MK2 that is capable of using the R-77. In addition, another 105 J-11s are also modded for this. A new J-11 variant, the J-11B is now coming into service in a full regiment with the PL-12, China's equivalent of the R-77. They are supported by another 76 Su-27SKs and UBKs, of which another 28 appear to have the R-77 upgrades. Alone China has the world's second largest Flanker fleet in paper, but the largest one if operational status is concerned.

You seem to know alot about PLAAF but nothing about RAAF , I already told you 900 fighters are capable of carry the R-77 , that is against 233 PLAAF fighters , wow wow , outnumbered more than 4 times , how do you like that statistic?

Even Furthermore from that lol..
Do you even know what R-77 PLAAF can use and more importantly " HOW MANY THEY HAVE "

and what R-77 the Russian Air force has? and HOW MANY THEY HAVE



Suprize suprize , PLAAF has ranging from 150-200 R-77 missiles , thats not enough to even destroy 1/5th of the total Russian Air force lmfao..

While Russians have enough missiles to several times destroy every single fighter from PLAAF.

BESIDES THAT

The R-77 that PLAAF use is not even comparable to the new R-77 from Russian Air force . the range is about 90km if YOU DIDN't KNOW.

The R-77D new version has range of about 180km , wow ... 2 times more , I wonder how PLAAF will even come close to engaging anything before beeing hit down..

Do you seriusly think that Russians would give the best stuff to PLAAF and furthermore .. seriusly dude..

There are currently four known regiments of J-10 in service, all capable of using PL-12 active radar guided BVRAAM. In addition to that there four regiments of J-8F, which is capable of using the PL-12. Plus one known regiment of J-8D's that have been electronically upgraded and there can easily be more, since China has six regiments of J-8D at least. Each regiment is 28 to 32 aircraft, so that can give you a good idea of the numbers. Add this all up and you have hundreds of aircraft that can use an active guided BVRAAM between the PL-12 and R-77 users.

Wow wow Yes go go , PL-12 , that can come close to hiting anything , with a range of 70-80km vs 180km and 300km of R-37 , they won't even get close no matter how many they are , and that missile entered service in 2007 , i wonder how many they have ?

Dude thats funny lol , they don't even have enough missiles capable of destroying 1/5th of the russian air force , yet alone capable of engaging them before counterwise

The Su-30s, the J-10s and the J-11Bs add to the H-6s and JH-7s that can delivery precision munitions guided capability. In addition to that, the JH-7s, the J-10s, the J-11Bs, the J-8F and upgraded J-8D, and even the J-7G are all using slotted array monopulse radars with modern microprocessors, which is already a generation or two ahead of the Soviet Union material.

LOLOL , yey eye , comparing PLAAF to Russian airforce in terms of avionics , good idea ! let me not get started here lol , S-800 is far more capable than any PLAAF design, and all the PLAAF has around avionics is mostly tnx to Russia .
Besides your fighters will die far before they can even shot , did you forget 80-90km vs 180km and 300km.. I know on what side I would want to be

In support of these aircraft, China now appears to have two flights (4 aircraft each) of KJ-2000s Mainrings that acts AEWC aircraft and appears to be working on more using the Y-8 platforms with phase arrays. Each KJ-2000 uses a 3 faced phase array.

Too sad it won't have any chance of survival upon enountering with Mig-31's no matter what their escorts are , isnt that a bummer?

As for tanks, estimates vary between 300-500 ZTZ-98/99 tanks, plus another 1500 to 2000 ZTZ-96/96G among the modern welded turret ERA equipped tanks.

Oh? ZTZ-96 whats that .. that is a shame for PLA , those tanks can not compare to any modern tank , only 200 Type-99 are pretty good , low number though!

On the surface ship side, they have four Sovremannies, the two 956EM is better fitted than whatever the aging Sovs the RuN still have. Plus 2 ea of the 052B which is equivalent to a modern Sovremanny, 2 AEGIS-like 052C with four faced phase array and HQ-9 VLS, and 2 051C with the S-300 RIF-M. There are now joined by the 054 frigates plus 4 and still counting 054A that managed to bring a VLS Shtil-1 clone into operation ahead of the Russians. And there are joined by 20 to 30 stealthy Type 22 FACs, each capable of launching 8 AshMs each.

nfloorl: nfloorl: nfloorl: nfloorl: nfloorl: nfloorl: nfloorl: nfloorl:

Type 22 missile boats will go head on destroyers or cruisers.. lol


Its like you said THOSE SOVREMENNY'S ( RUSSIAN SHIP ) ARE THE ONLY GOOD THINK the surface fleet has ..
Yet they stand NOOOO CHANCE AT ALL , against Russian fleet ( Cruisers , Kuznetsov , Destroyers , Frigates , Corvettes , Tu-22M backfires <-- forgot about those , and the sub fleet )

If im honest dude , Russian navy is capable of defeating PLAAN within a few days , i will tell you below , how.

For modern subs, the PLAN has 12 Kilos, of which 10 belong the Kilo 636 type, and 8 of which are capable of using the Klub. Two of the remaining 636 Kilos have been refitted just last month, possibly to the same standard. In addition to that, there are 14 to 16 new Song class submarines, all capable of firing long range AshMs underwater, with digital sonars and command centers. The new Yuan class is now in production, there could be at least 4 by the end of this year. At least 3 of the new 093 nuclear attack submarine has been built with a fourth either done or on the way. The Hans have been gotten more upgrades lately, so does the Xia. Plus one new 094 Jin class boomer along with the upgraded Xia class.

Kilo nfloorl:
Oh yea they stand a chance against Akula you gonna say now , and Shkval , lmao , the Sub fleet of PLAAN is a joke , those old diesel subs stand NO CHANCE AT ALL against any SSN from Russian navy equiped with Shkval II.
Song class is a joke , why do you even mention it ? lol

Listen good what im gonna say now

Xia , and Jin class are the only pretty good subs in the fleet , guess how many PLAAN has ? 1 of each lol

The rest is a complete joke and stands no chance against any modern submarine.. Those diesel subs are meant to defend the shore not project power or fight in open sea..



PLAN has no chance against USN , no chance against Russian navy , no chance against French or UK navy , dont let me continue..

They won't get even CLOSE to shooting range before they are destroyed by OSCAR SSGN with P-700 Granit , whatever is left would be sweeped off with Tu-22M backfires , easy like picnic , the sub fleet stands no chance , 2 modern SSN , vs 9 more capable SSN and 9 other SSN all equiped with better torpedo's .
And all is backed up by Kuznetsov , and Tu-22M , and even Tu-142 which is a naval version of Tu-95..

ANd DO I MUST REMIND YOU THE AMAZING ASW CAPABILITY OF ALL THE RUSSIAN SURFACE SHIPS??

How do you like that? There is absolutely no chance for PLAN , none.

So if you think about it, the PLA has a lot more modern stuff than what Russia has now, and these acquisitions show no sign of stopping.

PLA has nowhere NEAR the tehnology or modern stuff that Russia or UK or France or Germany..
All the tehnology they get is from Russia , and even with that they are 30 years behind , because they don't get the most advanced tehnology , when Russia sells them something they already have something better in active service or development .. so there

There are also a lot of older stuff, like the Jianghu and Jiangwei frigates, the Luhus and Ludas, the hundreds of J-7s and older J-8s, the T-59/69/80s, but unlike what happened to the Soviet Union equipment, the PLA older stuff are not mothballed, they are well maintained, upgraded and continuously used, even for training. Thus there are no rusting mothballed fleets here, and all the older stuff can be promptly thrown into battle in support of the modern fleets.

AIR: Not even the new stuff can compare to things like R-77D , R-37 which about 900 fighers can carry vs 200 missiles that PLAAF only has ( the downgraded R-77 )

NAVY: This is a joke right? the Russian Anti Ship missiles are the best in the world , even better than USN , Missiles like P-700 Granit or P-800 , and Brahamos , far more advancaed and with bigger range than any anti ship missile PLAN has .. Shkval Mk2 is the best torpedo , and 18 SSN's can carry it vs the 2 SSN's that are capable in PLAN , the old diesel subs are a joke and good only for protecting the shore.

ARMY: Allthough the Ground forces would get bombed and cruise missiled from Russian airforce , even if they wouldn't , SMERCH is most advanced MLRS , Iskander is even better and has high conventional warheads , PLA has nothing that can come close , and only 200 modern tanks , the rest is crap..

You forgot to do your homework

 

[Grand Danois]

There is another five regiments of JH-7/7A between the two branches, also with similar weapons, and these can fly fast and low acting as low level interdictors. In addition to these weapons, it now appears that Beidou guided bombs and glide bombs are now operational (FT-2, LS-6) along with the LS-500 LGB.

The current constellation of nav sats in the Beidou system doesn't allow use for sat guided munitions - its pure geometry. Much surprised to hear that there is an operational capability.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

Xander i agree with you on this one mate....

The russian air force is comprised mainly of 1980's+ vintage platforms with some very modern stuff (SU30/35). The PLAAF is comprised mainly of 1950/60's vintage stuff with a few bits of newish kit (J11+J10). The russian ORBAT is more impressive (600+ teenski fighters that are modernised compared to 2~300) and an excellent operational doctorine. Their AEW&C is much more impresive with some 14 A50E's. I would bet my car that their electronic warfare capability is much more impresive given their long history in this area and previous capability. AFAIK all of PLAAF's EW capability is of russian origin. Their ISR (Inteligence Survailance & Reconisance) capability is MILES ahead of PROC especially their space based stuff, orbital ISR of that calibur is something PLAAF would have wet dreams over. The russian navy is MUCH more capable in terms of platforms, ISR capability and (i would imagine) operational doctorine. PLAN is a bit of a joke in terms of capability and those old diesel boats (all 100 odd of them, and yes even the modernised kilo's) wouldnt last 5 minets against a single OSCAR II or AKULA, not to mention PLAN's surface fleet which might last 10. Russia's strategic warfare capability is second only to the US, and thats without its tactical and strategic nuclear forces, again something PLA could only have wet dreams over. The closest thing PLAAF has to strategic air power is their much vaunted H6 (LOL) whcih would be going up against 200+ MiG 31's, a VERY capable interceptor designed to counter USAF strategic air assets such as the B1b in heavy ECM environments, how long do you think a modernised badger is going to last????

None of that deals with the ground component. As far as materiel is concerned the russians have heaps more, very capable kit stockpiled, with 5000+ viable MBT's as an example. Not to mention munitions stockpiles themselfes. if a good portion of the sovied erra stuff was still viable then the russians would have plenty, i'm not sure how much the chinese have stockpiled, especially more sophistocated stuff. As far as the quality of the people on the ground thats something that cant be realisticaly qualified here, both the russians and chinese have shown their qualities in battle before.

Anyway is there was a conflict to occur in eastern siberia or over vladivostok a governing question would wether the russians could concentrate in the theater quickley enough. PLA would hold the logistical advantage with much shorter lines of communication, supplying russian divisions across siberia would be a nightmare. However you would assume, given the large soviet/russian presance in the area in the last 100+ years, that the russians would have vast munitions stockpiles in the area, so this problem might not be as bad as you would think. Either way such a conflict would be decided by more than just who's kit is better, but in allmost every capability the rusiians are much more impressive that the chinese, exept for ciber warfare.

 

[crobato]

The current constellation of nav sats in the Beidou system doesn't allow use for sat guided munitions - its pure geometry. Much surprised to hear that there is an operational capability.

Its not a question of logic whether it can be done or not. IT IS DONE. The previous constellation of Beidou does use a stationary location point in the Earth, unlike GPS, but Beidou is moving entirely to satellite.

The PLA has already demonstrated last year at least two satellite guided munitions, the FT-2 which resembles a JDAM, and the LS-6, which resembles a guide bomb. By the way a fourth Beidou and 2nd generation satellite has already been launched this year, and there would be more in the succeeding years. GPS bomb accuracy is not there yet, since they're getting about 15 to 20m CEP.

 

[Grand Danois]

Its not a question of logic whether it can be done or not. IT IS DONE. The previous constellation of Beidou does use a stationary location point in the Earth, unlike GPS, but Beidou is moving entirely to satellite.

I'm aware that Beidou uses proxy data. But I can't figure out if you're referring to commercial use using differential systems (used for surveying) or military use, using a geoid model or elevation data. (Even then, the northing will have a mean error of approx 160m at best, if you assume use of NAVSTAR quality signals and clocks). Beidou uses both methods of correction (it couldn't do without the geoid/elev data in the prev constellation).

Nonetheless, you are restricted to surface use only. No good for air launched weapons.

Edit: Ahhh. Now I see. You are talking about groundbased pseudolites. That is not very sat nav-ish, using diff PS.

The PLA has already demonstrated last year at least two satellite guided munitions, the FT-2 which resembles a JDAM, and the LS-6, which resembles a guide bomb. By the way a fourth Beidou and 2nd generation satellite has already been launched this year, and there would be more in the succeeding years. GPS bomb accuracy is not there yet, since they're getting about 15 to 20m CEP.

I'm aware of above. The fourth orbiter plus the three original GEO allows for a window of time of some hours each day in a specific region (like the Taiwan Straits only). Reduced reliance on proxy data and improved northing, yes, but not a quality (across several parameters) that is usable for the purpose...

Hmmm. So it is done... What is done? When the geometry of the signals has practically excluded it and the use is very restricted with an additional sat?

It isn't an operational capability. You can drop a few munitions to demonstrate technology potential, this is what has been done. For operational capability... for that the Chinese needs to get more nav sats out in space, which they will.

The "problem" with this use of the Beidou is, that the current constellation sans the orbiter works best when used as midcourse guidance for ICBMs aimed for the eastern seaboard of the US. I'm not saying that this is what it is for, just noting that this looks to be the purpose - as opposed to guiding air launched munitions.

 

[crobato]

Alright you want analysis , lets go



My bad I meant J-7 ( Version of Mig-21 ) which is a shame for PLAAF.
They have 500+ , most of their airforce , furhermore the most aircraft PLAAF had in air simultaniasly would suprize you , their ariforce is nowhere near capable than any major power , nor they have tehnology ( Except the few they got from RUSSIA , i might remind you ) , nor training , no experience in any major conflict.

Wow you didn't read the PLAAF ORBAT now. There are nearly over 500 aircraft in the PLAAF now that is capable of using R-77 and PL-12. How much can you say that of the Russian air force.

Russian defense industry has the technology, but the Russian Air Force still cannot afford them. That's why they sell it to the PLAAF.

As for training, how much hours does Russian pilots get? 20 hours per year? 60? 110?

I have very three distinct and concrete examples where I can get PLAAF pilot hours. The first example gave me 185 hours. The second, 160 hours. The third, 140-150 hours.

Just about 300 Mig-31's can , a few squadrons are updated to carry R-37, others are beeing upgraded so they can carry R-37 too ( 300km range good enough? ) .

The MiG-31 cannot dogfight, nor is the missile an active guided one.

Most of the 480 Mig-29's can carry R-77 , allthough they started upgrading them to Mig-35 which will also be able to carry them.. , So lets say about 350 Mig-29's can..

WRONG. Only the MiG-29C's can, which accounts for a very small fraction of the MiG-29 force. The majority are MiG-29As which are equipped with the R-27, a semiactive guided missile. And there is no plans in the RuAF to upgrade them to carry R-77s either.

All the Su-34's , Su-35's and updated flankers can carry them , so thats about 50..

The Su-34s are only a mere handful, the Su-35s are mere prototypes, not certified for combat. Only the updated Flankers can, but these are like 24.

From Su-27's , do you know how many they have SM version?
from 460 flankers , about 150-250 can carry R-77 .

Wrong. They have only been upgrading at a rate of roughly ten to a dozen each year. That means they're not that many.

Thats about 900 Front line fighters capable of carrying the R-77 , how does that sound?

Disproven as fiction.

You seem to know alot about PLAAF but nothing about RAAF , I already told you 900 fighters are capable of carry the R-77 , that is against 233 PLAAF fighters , wow wow , outnumbered more than 4 times , how do you like that statistic?

Well you really don't know about the RuAF actually. Besides, that isn't 233 PLAAF fighters. That is.

100 Su-30MKK/MK2
176 Su-27SK, UBK
120 JH-7/JH-7A
100 to 150 J-10s
100 to 150 J-8F/H/upgraded D that is capable of carrying the PL-12.

Even Furthermore from that lol..
Do you even know what R-77 PLAAF can use and more importantly " HOW MANY THEY HAVE "

It is certainly a lot more (KANWA claims that China ordered 1000 R-77s) than what the RuAF has, because the RuAF barely ordered any.

and what R-77 the Russian Air force has? and HOW MANY THEY HAVE

Give me some figures.

Suprize suprize , PLAAF has ranging from 150-200 R-77 missiles , thats not enough to even destroy 1/5th of the total Russian Air force lmfao..

Really? 100 to 200 is what they got in the first year alone, that was 2000, and 7 years ago. Not to mention they manufacture the PL-12 now.

While Russians have enough missiles to several times destroy every single fighter from PLAAF.

Really? And which ones have active guidance?

The R-77 that PLAAF use is not even comparable to the new R-77 from Russian Air force . the range is about 90km if YOU DIDN't KNOW.

Which is nonsense. The new R-77 is not yet in service.

By the way, the PLAAF tested the R-77 and didn't think you can get 90km without flying at least Mach 1.5, at 15km altitude on a head on target. Wow, talk about arranging tests to get the best numbers possible.

The R-77D new version has range of about 180km , wow ... 2 times more , I wonder how PLAAF will even come close to engaging anything before beeing hit down..

Again, read the above how the Russians arrange their tests.

Do you seriusly think that Russians would give the best stuff to PLAAF and furthermore .. seriusly dude..

No they gave it to the Indians, and then the Chinese but still what the Chinese got was still much better than what the Russian Air Force had. As a matter of fact, the Su-27SM upgrade is based on the Su-30MKK technology---the latter now considered outdated by the PLAAF.

Wow wow Yes go go , PL-12 , that can come close to hiting anything , with a range of 70-80km vs 180km and 300km of R-37 , they won't even get close no matter how many they are , and that missile entered service in 2007 , i wonder how many they have ?

You really don't know much about missiles do you? Maximum range does not count. No Escape Zone does. The NEZ for a large AAM however, is quite poor compared to smaller, more agile missiles. Large missiles can be outmaneuvered; the R-37 is not intended to shoot down fighters but large slow bombers and AWACS.

The PLAAF did their PL-12 tests at Mach 1.2 at 10,000 meters, which by the way they claimed at that altitude, the PL-12 had better range than the R-77.

Dude thats funny lol , they don't even have enough missiles capable of destroying 1/5th of the russian air force , yet alone capable of engaging them before counterwise [/B]

Dude, I refuted already all your claims and figures.

LOLOL , yey eye , comparing PLAAF to Russian airforce in terms of avionics , good idea ! let me not get started here lol , S-800 is far more capable than any PLAAF design, and all the PLAAF has around avionics is mostly tnx to Russia .
Besides your fighters will die far before they can even shot , did you forget 80-90km vs 180km and 300km.. I know on what side I would want to be

Really? Which Russian fighter _in service_ that has an automated EW/Chaff response mated to a digital RWR and optical based MAWS? The J-10 has this, and this system is being exported to the Pakistan JF-17 and is also being installed on the J-11B. The Russian made aircraft that has this, has the systems imiported from a SAAB subsidiary in South Africa and the planes sold to Malaysia.

The PLAAF knows far too well of Russian SIGINT that all these signals are going to be programmed into their RWRs and EWs. While the Russians know far too little of PLAAF SIGINT. At the same time, the PLAAF knows far too well about Flankers while the Russians know zilch about the J-10.

Too sad it won't have any chance of survival upon enountering with Mig-31's no matter what their escorts are , isnt that a bummer?

The MiG-31 is not intended to go against fighters, but bombers.

Oh? ZTZ-96 whats that .. that is a shame for PLA , those tanks can not compare to any modern tank , only 200 Type-99 are pretty good , low number though!

Then you really have not updated yourself then. The 96G is now a 48 ton tank with ERA and a turret shaped like the ZTZ-99, with 1000hp engines. Any T-90 mod is actually the equivalent of the 96G as opposed to the -99, which by the way, is about 400 to 500.

Type 22 missile boats will go head on destroyers or cruisers.. lol

Each boat has a tiny RCS, so your destroyers and cruisers have to see them in their radars and by then, the larger ships would have given themselves away to the small boats because of the radar usage. Each 22 mounts 8 YJ-83s, that's the antiship firepower of an entire destroyer on a highly mobile and very low radar visible platform.

Just two weeks ago, 20 to 30 of these ships mounted a "surge" exercise kin joint coordination with Y-8 MPAs under heavy ECM conditions.

Its like you said THOSE SOVREMENNY'S ( RUSSIAN SHIP ) ARE THE ONLY GOOD THINK the surface fleet has ..

The PLAN does not regard the Sovies the best they have. The last set---still more advanced than any of the Sovies in the Russian fleet---is not followed up by new orders.

Yet they stand NOOOO CHANCE AT ALL , against Russian fleet ( Cruisers , Kuznetsov , Destroyers , Frigates , Corvettes , Tu-22M backfires <-- forgot about those , and the sub fleet )

Like much of the RuAF, most of them are mothballed or waiting in the scrapyard.

If im honest dude , Russian navy is capable of defeating PLAAN within a few days , i will tell you below , how.[/B]

It will take a lot more than few days, more like years, to get the fleet up from a mothball condition first.

Kilo nfloorl:
Oh yea they stand a chance against Akula you gonna say now , and Shkval , lmao , the Sub fleet of PLAAN is a joke , those old diesel subs stand NO CHANCE AT ALL against any SSN from Russian navy equiped with Shkval II.
Song class is a joke , why do you even mention it ? lol

Lol. The PLAN has more advanced Kilos than what the Russians have. And the Akula is actually an overrated and noisy beast. At least even the new Songs and Yuans have passive LF flank sonars, which none of the Kilos have.
And the Shkval is something the PLAN may have already copied.

Listen good what im gonna say now

Xia , and Jin class are the only pretty good subs in the fleet , guess how many PLAAN has ? 1 of each lol

Lol. The Jin class is a boomer, not an attack sub. It is the 093 Shang class, of which 3 is now in the water, and 4-6 projected by the end of the decade, that is trying to approximate the 688I class.

The rest is a complete joke and stands no chance against any modern submarine.. Those diesel subs are meant to defend the shore not project power or fight in open sea..

Sorry that's not true also. Diesel subs are quieter both in the littoral and open sea underwater at least against any noisy Soviet sub, which by the way, are mostly in the scrapyards.

They won't get even CLOSE to shooting range before they are destroyed by OSCAR SSGN with P-700 Granit , whatever is left would be sweeped off with Tu-22M backfires , easy like picnic , the sub fleet stands no chance , 2 modern SSN , vs 9 more capable SSN and 9 other SSN all equiped with better torpedo's .
And all is backed up by Kuznetsov , and Tu-22M , and even Tu-142 which is a naval version of Tu-95..

The Granit in my opinion, is one overrated missile. Those outdated '70s electronics are all going to be jammed, and the PLA probably knows more about Russian SIGINT than even the US.

ANd DO I MUST REMIND YOU THE AMAZING ASW CAPABILITY OF ALL THE RUSSIAN SURFACE SHIPS??

Really? Russian ASW consists mostly of RBU-1000/1200 rocket mortars and other things like that. Stuff that the PLAN also has. Russia's best ASW missile, the one based on the Klub, isn't certified with the RuN or is operational with it.

PLA has nowhere NEAR the tehnology or modern stuff that Russia or UK or France or Germany..
All the tehnology they get is from Russia , and even with that they are 30 years behind , because they don't get the most advanced tehnology , when Russia sells them something they already have something better in active service or development .. so there

If that is true, why do the PLAN Kilos can fire Sizzlers underwater, making true SSGs, while the RuN Kilos don't? Why do the PLAN Sovremannies have Kashtans and the RuN Sovs don't? Why do the PLAN Sovs have a Sunburn version with twice the range of the Russian's?

AIR: Not even the new stuff can compare to things like R-77D , R-37 which about 900 fighers can carry vs 200 missiles that PLAAF only has ( the downgraded R-77 )

R-77D - Not Operational and still in early phases of development looking for funding.

R-37 is not an anti-fighter missile.

NAVY: This is a joke right? the Russian Anti Ship missiles are the best in the world , even better than USN

That's a joke? Maybe in range, but not in stealth, low flying capability, ECM resistance, evasive maneuvers and the ability to vector in from multiple way points.

No surprise, that the Russians are going small and subsonic now with the Uran and Klub types.

, Missiles like P-700 Granit or P-800 , and Brahamos , far more advancaed and with bigger range than any anti ship missile PLAN has .. Shkval Mk2 is the best torpedo , and 18 SSN's can carry it vs the 2 SSN's that are capable in PLAN , the old diesel subs are a joke and good only for protecting the shore.

The Shkval is made in a former Soviet Republic, which means you don't make it anymore. By the way, its been said that the PLAN has also acquired this technology. The Yu-6 is now in service with the PLAN subs, that's the equivalent to a Mk 48 torpedo.

Brahmos is certainly more advanced, but its co partnerned with the Indians. The Granit is probably overrated and outdated in today's complex electronic warfare. All these supersonic missiles have to fly higher in the water, which means they are easier to detect at range and intercepted.

The real sea skimmers are the Sunburn, which the PLAN has the more advanced version, and appears that the PLAN has bought at least 500 according to KANWA; the Klub, which no RuN ship is equipped with, but which the PLAN has 8 Kilos equipped with and has ordered more of the missiles; and the Urans which are not used in the RuN but sold to India.

Which RuN ships have operational Kashtan CIWS? You have a rather small handful of ships, like the carrier, the Kirovs, Neutrashimmys and the new corvette. The majority is using the AK-230 or AK-630, which are all chancey against sea skimmers. The PLAN also has the AK-630, which they license produce and has even improved with low RCS turret designs. Furthermore, the PLAN has gone past that with its Type 730 CIWS, which has become their standard CIWS for all new ships.

Chinese sea skimmer YJ-83s have been observed with over 200km range. The first was spotted by US intel for a flight over 255km fired from a JH-7. Another observation was by Russian officers in the Peace Mission 2005 exercises where it did a surface to surface hit against a small moving target at over 200km range. The Russians didn't believe their eyes. The new YJ-62s have greater range than that. The export version is tauted with a 280km range and that seems modded to fit the MTCR limit, much less when you consider the domestic versions.

By the way, the Song class, the Yuan class, the Shang class, the Jin class, the improved Han class can all fire the air breathing turbojet YJ-82 underwater, and has done for years now.

ARMY: Allthough the Ground forces would get bombed and cruise missiled from Russian airforce , even if they wouldn't , SMERCH is most advanced MLRS , Iskander is even better and has high conventional warheads , PLA has nothing that can come close , and only 200 modern tanks , the rest is crap..

You forgot to do your homework

How is the SMERCH the more advanced MLRS? The 70-80km range is considered mid level for PLA MLRS. The WS-2 has a 150 to 300km range.

As for cruise missiles and PGMs, where are they? The PLAAF is said to have bought over 2000 Kh-29s, literally clearing the Russian inventory. The PLAAF is already fielding at least two kinds of SLAM, which is the KD-63 and the KD-88, both with electro-optical guidance.


You obviously have not done your own homework.

 

[crobato]

I'm aware that Beidou uses proxy data. But I can't figure out if you're referring to commercial use using differential systems (used for surveying) or military use, using a geoid model or elevation data. (Even then, the northing will have a mean error of approx 160m at best, if you assume use of NAVSTAR quality signals and clocks). Beidou uses both methods of correction (it couldn't do without the geoid/elev data in the prev constallation).

Nonetheless, you are restricted to surface use only. No good for air launched weapons.

And yet, why are they fielding air launched munitions based on Beidou?

I'm aware of above. The fourth orbiter plus the three original GEO allows for a window of time of some hours each day in a specific region (like the Taiwan Straits only). Reduced reliance of proxy data and improved northing, yes, but not a quality (across several parameters) that is usable for the purpose...

Hmmm. So it is done... What is done? When the geometry of the signals has practically excluded it and the use is very restricted with an additional sat?

It isn't an operational capability. You can drop a few munitions to demonstrate technology potential, this is what has been done. For operational capability... for that the Chinese needs to get more nav sats out in space, which they will.

The "problem" with this use of the Beidou is, that the current constellation sans the orbiter works best when used as midcourse guidance for ICBMs aimed for the eastern seaboard of the US. I'm not saying that this is what it is for, just noting that this looks to be the purpose - as opposed to guiding air launched munitions.

Beidou for the time period, does use a fixed location from the ground, not its not proxy, its a signal station like the satellites but ground based.

The picture we have on the J-8F carrying the LS-6 has the unit numbers of a training regiment.

 

[f-22fan12]

Xander, you think much too highly of Russia. Don't forget Russia JUST CAN'T AFFORD THE STUFF IT DEVELOPS. Russia has only 30 Su-30s LOL. Xander, calm down, Russia is NOT the great power you think it is. China is no joke. China already has a bigger economy and more money.

 

[crobato]

The russian air force is comprised mainly of 1980's+ vintage platforms with some very modern stuff (SU30/35). The PLAAF is comprised mainly of 1950/60's vintage stuff with a few bits of newish kit (J11+J10). The russian ORBAT is more impressive (600+ teenski fighters that are modernised compared to 2~300) and an excellent operational doctorine. Their AEW&C is much more impresive with some 14 A50E's. I would bet my car that their electronic warfare capability is much more impresive given their long history in this area and previous capability. AFAIK all of PLAAF's EW capability is of russian origin.

You know Ozzy, I can give unit, regiment numbers, division numbers, locations, and good estimates on each regiment size for all the J-11s, Su-30s, Su-27s, J-10s, JH-7/7As, J-8Fs. Look at the numbers above. Don't give that "few bits".

14 A-50Es? The Russians have been trying to sell or lease them. The PLAAF now has a second flight of KJ-2000s, which is similar to the A-50 but has a 3 faced phase array similar to the Phalcon. This is in addition the KJ-200 which has the Erieye balance beam arrangement.

The PLAAF's EW capability are not of Russian origin, except of the ones on the Su-27s. As a matter of fact, go to ACIG, check what Tom Cooper has with an interview with Russian specialists. Italics are mine.

http://www.s188567700.online.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4996&start=0

"Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:20 am Post subject:

I do recal having participated in some discussions - involving the then local Russian air attache here in Vienna - that touched this topic too, several years back. The attache in question used to work in the development of avionics for Su-24s, for example.

Anyway, the matter was actually about the Russian aviation industry, especially Su-27s, and their development. And, eventually, we've touched also the philosophy and drive behind what the Russian designers do, how and why.

Basically (and this came out only after I think the second bottle of vodka), the matter was such that all they wanted to see were manuals of various Western aircraft and equipment. That's what - just for example - Sukhoi should be ready to pay small fortunes for. Their designers do not care about practical experiences of their pilots or ground crews in Chechnya, or in various African conflicts the least. They also don't care about possible requirements of their potential customers (foremost the Chinese and Indians). All they wanted to see were manuals - especially those of US aircraft - or related reports about future developments. They wanted the most basic, as raw as possible, data about technical capabilities, so they could analyse them.

And, once they'd get these into their hands, they'd sit down and read them carefully, trying to find out what are the Americans fielding. Then they'd do their best to develop things that is either a) better (in sence of being larger/faster/reaching further), b) more powerfull (in sence of having longer range, more power output etc.), or c) could successfully counter US or European systems in their fields.

That should be the main driving power behind their development.

Interestingly, the Russians were also working very little on tactics or finding out best ways how to deploy these systems in (potential) combat. This was what the Chinese were doing. The attache explained how once they've got two highly-qualified Chinese Su-27-pilots as guests (for a month or so at least), to work with them on some system he wouldn't go into any details about, and how these supposedly were true experts in US equipment, tactics and operational thinking. So much so, the Russians were completely surprised by sheer amount of knowledge and what kind of things these two Chinese did know (but the Russians didn't know).

So, interestingly, one does not get to hear much about Russians teaching anybody on EW/ECM-deployment, but others - especially the Chinese and the Ukrainians (or their Israeli counterparts) - doing this."

 

[Grand Danois]

And yet, why are they fielding air launched munitions based on Beidou?

Beidou for the time period, does use a fixed location from the ground, not its not proxy, its a signal station like the satellites but ground based.

The picture we have on the J-8F carrying the LS-6 has the unit numbers of a training regiment.

Problem here is that it is ground based (or non-sat). The purpose of a sat nav is to use the sat nav. Beidou only works when supported by a ground pseudolite (or proxy data), which defeats the whole idea of using sat nav as guidance...

They can carry them on all the training regiments they wish and that can be interpreted any way you want. It doesn't change above. They are not independently sat guided.

Btw, in the context of using against Russia, it cannot be used at all. More sats are needed. Constellation again.

Another btw, re proxy. Surface nav using three sat Beidou constellation without pseudolite uses geoid or external elevation data to function at all. Aka proxy data.

 

[tphuang]

Problem here is that it is ground based (or non-sat). The purpose of a sat nav is to use the sat nav. Beidou only works when supported by a ground pseudolite (or proxy data), which defeats the whole idea of using sat nav as guidance...

They can carry them on all the training regiments they wish and that can be interpreted any way you want. It doesn't change above. They are not independently sat guided.

Btw, in the context of using against Russia, it cannot be used at all. More sats are needed. Constellation again.

Another btw, re proxy. Surface nav using three sat Beidou constellation without pseudolite uses geoid or external elevation data to function at all. Aka proxy data.

not really, Beidou can work without ground based station, although it's less accurate. Beidou 2 is suppose to work without the ground based station.
http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/spacecraft/beidou2.asp
In the near future, you can anticipate that at least the area around China should be under the umbrella of Beidou 2. And if you ever checked any of the guides on the satellite guided weapons of PLA, they work with multiple navigation systems + by INS alone. Why do you assume that Chinese satellite guided weapons are so badly designed that they cannot operate without Beidou?

The russian air force is comprised mainly of 1980's+ vintage platforms with some very modern stuff (SU30/35). The PLAAF is comprised mainly of 1950/60's vintage stuff with a few bits of newish kit (J11+J10). The russian ORBAT is more impressive (600+ teenski fighters that are modernised compared to 2~300) and an excellent operational doctorine. Their AEW&C is much more impresive with some 14 A50E's. I would bet my car that their electronic warfare capability is much more impresive given their long history in this area and previous capability. AFAIK all of PLAAF's EW capability is of russian origin. Their ISR (Inteligence Survailance & Reconisance) capability is MILES ahead of PROC especially their space based stuff, orbital ISR of that calibur is something PLAAF would have wet dreams over. The russian navy is MUCH more capable in terms of platforms, ISR capability and (i would imagine) operational doctorine. PLAN is a bit of a joke in terms of capability and those old diesel boats (all 100 odd of them, and yes even the modernised kilo's) wouldnt last 5 minets against a single OSCAR II or AKULA, not to mention PLAN's surface fleet which might last 10. Russia's strategic warfare capability is second only to the US, and thats without its tactical and strategic nuclear forces, again something PLA could only have wet dreams over. The closest thing PLAAF has to strategic air power is their much vaunted H6 (LOL) whcih would be going up against 200+ MiG 31's, a VERY capable interceptor designed to counter USAF strategic air assets such as the B1b in heavy ECM environments, how long do you think a modernised badger is going to last????

do you have any idea what you are talking about?

Let's put it this way, Russia is going no where with this resurgence can be clearly seen with its dealings with China:
1. It can't build ships on time and with good quality. As seen with its exports to China in Kilo/Sov, India in Gorshkov and domestic projects like Borei, the new 22350 frigate
2. The aircrafts that weren't getting export orders simply can't get built on time -> IL-76 fiasco
3. Outside of project 22350, all of the Russian ships are outdated in concept, stealthiness and electronics. All of this can be seen in the recent 956EM order. You definitely will not see another sov order from China again
4. They haven't produced a new fighter jet since the Soviet breakup. Despite the hype, advertising on the recent Su-35 and Mig-35, they are still flankers and fulcrums. The way they are going, we are going to get to su-99 and still be talking flankers. Notice that pla hasn't placed an order for these things since Jan 2003?
5. Their A2G/S munitions is very underwhelming. Again, what new missiles have they come up with since Soviet breakup? It actually makes me laugh. The Russians were offering their new missile, KH-31PKD (or something like that), at Zhuhai airshow. But that's still KH-31!
6. The anti-ship missile arsenal is overrated. PLAN has made two deals recently:
i) for Klub with the Kilos, that has turned out to be a dud, launching systems with problems (also experienced by IN I believe)
ii) 3M80MBE, the much hyped improved Sunburn, it's turned out to be so underwhelming that PLAN has no made any orders for this despite possibly funding the project.
7. A-50E AWACS, PLAAF rejected it for phalcon, so did IAF. Then after getting snubbed with phalcon, trialled it again and found that it still didn't suit their requirements, so they built their own AWACS in KJ-2000.
8. Tu-22M3/TU-95 offered to China, rejected. Actually, China would rather build upgraded H-6Ks.
9. Amur offered to China, again rejected.
10. Despite the much hyped R-77/R-73 missiles + Test-71/96 torpedoes, notice how China doesn't use any of that on indigenous fighters or submarines? Not as amazing as otherwise stated by China threat people.

On a side note, the Russian SAMs are still very potent although S-400 development has been kind of slow.

 

[Gripenator]

Kanwa reports that the AShMs in the two quad launch tubes on the PLAN Sov DDGs are actually the subsonic YJ-63-either the Sunburns are out for some reengineering or the deal never took place?

(The rain wet the magazine so its kind of hard making out the Chinese characters

BTW-Russian weapons are overhyped as well as the Russian military itself.

From my vantage point at the front door of Russian expansionism for over 500years, I can only see the rotting hulks of what is left of the Baltic Fleet. As if new oil revenues can instantly reverse 20 years of underfunding, training and neglect-the only four Russian things to be scared of are the Russian Mafia, the KGB (now SVR)-whose intelligence networks remain in place, the Russian Nuclear Triad (in terms of capability as the only service never to have seen funding cut) and Russian SAMs.

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

do you have any idea what you are talking about?

I hope so... if not perhaps you can enlighten me, or try again because this post wasnt very enlightening.

Let's put it this way, Russia is going no where with this resurgence can be clearly seen with its dealings with China:

So your going to rebutt points on capability with arms transfers and making delivery dates???? That makes heaps of sence. But i'll humor you.

1. It can't build ships on time and with good quality. As seen with its exports to China in Kilo/Sov, India in Gorshkov and domestic projects like Borei, the new 22350 frigate

The three most potent naval platforms you have are russian built, sovmerny, kilo and grushov, and your baging their platfomrs???? Anyway their shipbuilding efficiency (and i dont see how its oohh so terrible) is irrelevent to this discussion. The russian navy is built, armed, manned, trained, and exersising as we type, and guess what, its plenty more capable than PLAN in practicaly every aspect, late deliveries or not...

2. The aircrafts that weren't getting export orders simply can't get built on time -> IL-76 fiasco

Again you think late deliveries somehow shed some revealing light on russian capability. And again the russian air force is built, armed, manned, trained, and are being upgraded as we type, and again guess what... they have more combat viable 4th gen platforms than you do by a healthy matrgin, they have more support assets than you do, they have real strategic air power which you dont and they have a very mature EW capability which (i would bet my car on this) is more capable than yours. But somehow prduction problems at the factory negate all of this huh??????

3. Outside of project 22350, all of the Russian ships are outdated in concept, stealthiness and electronics. All of this can be seen in the recent 956EM order. You definitely will not see another sov order from China again

Of cource they are outdated in concept, they are 1980's vintage. However so is much of the USN. The sov is in the same technological generation as a perry hazard class frigate which makes up the backbone of the USN CBG's. That generation of surface combatants is getting old and you'll never see anyone order a pery haz either. Does that somehow show how outdated and incapable the USN is?????? I dont think so...

4. They haven't produced a new fighter jet since the Soviet breakup. Despite the hype, advertising on the recent Su-35 and Mig-35, they are still flankers and fulcrums. The way they are going, we are going to get to su-99 and still be talking flankers. Notice that pla hasn't placed an order for these things since Jan 2003?

Unlike PLAAF there isnt a desperae need for any new fighters because they have over 1000 4th gen platforms in service that are still not only combat viable but lethal. The MiG 29 and Su 27 are comperable to the F15 & F16, and they make up the mass of the russian air force, unlike PLAAF who's mass is comprised of J8's and IIRC J6's. Why on earth would you be producing new fighters with an air force that large and that capable????? Anyway the PAK FA is their next gen platform not an advanced flanker or MiG 35's (which mind you are both plenty more capable than a J10 or J11B) and it is fully funded. When it enters service PLAAF will be in a similar boat as the one they are in now vs the USAF, i.e. totlay f*%ked.....

Oh but because PLAAF isnt lining up at the russians door then their kit must be crap huh???? Well the indians are still, and with the quality of their platforms (russian made SU 30MKI & MiG 35) they stand to be holding a qualitative advantage vs PLAAF.

5. Their A2G/S munitions is very underwhelming. Again, what new missiles have they come up with since Soviet breakup? It actually makes me laugh. The Russians were offering their new missile, KH-31PKD (or something like that), at Zhuhai airshow. But that's still KH-31!
6. The anti-ship missile arsenal is overrated. PLAN has made two deals recently:
i) for Klub with the Kilos, that has turned out to be a dud, launching systems with problems (also experienced by IN I believe)
ii) 3M80MBE, the much hyped improved Sunburn, it's turned out to be so underwhelming that PLAN has no made any orders for this despite possibly funding the project.

Their A2G pgms and ASM's are underwhelming????? What just because they havent produced any entirely new models since the soviet breakup... Ahhh so what they have must be crap! I guess harpoon and exoscet are crap too then huh, since they're the same vintage. I wonder why so many first rate navies still use them?????

And because PLAN is having problems with the launch systems for a missile system than the russians whole ASM capability must be crap then?? That sounds familiar, you know the USAF is having some real problems with JASSM, so that somehow sheds light on both USAF's standoff capability and the capability of the weapons system itself??? (which will be one of the most capable standoff and anti shipping systmes ever deployed) That makes heaps of sence!!! And your right sunburn must be crap, mach 2.5 sea skimming missile, useless!

Also i wouldnt use the fact that PLA isnt buying heaps of these weapons as some kind of indication on their capability. A more likely explenation is that they boght enough to reverse engineer and produce their own without paying for a lisence. I understand that practice has been the mainstay of cinese armament industry for the last 40 years.

7. A-50E AWACS, PLAAF rejected it for phalcon, so did IAF. Then after getting snubbed with phalcon, trialled it again and found that it still didn't suit their requirements, so they built their own AWACS in KJ-2000.

Phased array platforms are more capable than classic radome assets in some area's, but 14 platforms is still an awesome capability and something that currently the chinese cant match.

8. Tu-22M3/TU-95 offered to China, rejected. Actually, China would rather build upgraded H-6Ks.

Really???? See thats not what i read. My understanding was that PLAAF outlined, publicly i might add, a clear intention to buy the platform, and (partially due to diplomatic pressure from th US) the russians refused the sale. Maybe the PLA's propaganda bureau says different? Ofcource the fact that the chinese "decided" to build H6's instead indicateds that an upgraded badger (but most importantly one that is upgraded by the chinese) is more capable than a Tu 22M... nfloorl: Mate your a laugh a minet...

9. Amur offered to China, again rejected.

So it must be chite then huh??????? The RAAF rejected F15E and EF 2000 so they must be crap then? This 'logic' of yours if far from logical or perswasive.

10. Despite the much hyped R-77/R-73 missiles + Test-71/96 torpedoes, notice how China doesn't use any of that on indigenous fighters or submarines? Not as amazing as otherwise stated by China threat people.

More of this "logic" of yours. Just because a nation decides not to aquire a sertain platform or missile system does not somehow make it crap. There are plenty of reasons why a certain nation may chose one missile over the other. MBDA are continuing with the METEOR project and will phase out all AMRAAMs in (IIRC) its arsenal. So according to your logic AIM120D is worthless??? Thats total crap! Its clearly just a tactic you are using to discredit the russians and discredit what i'm saying and i'm afraid it just doesnt hold water in reality. Perhaps there is a realistic (and justified) desire to move away from dependance on foregin arms imports and designs towards an indigenous arms industry? Maybe thats why PLAAF are continuing to increase the numbers of "indigenous" systems in their arsenall, not because they are soooo much better than anything anyone else can design.

You posted a quote of mine that made several points about russian air power in terms of numbers and quality of 4th gen platforms in comparison to PLAAF. Numbers, and in some cases quality, of russian supprot asstes such as AEW&C, tankers and other ISR asstes. Russian ISR capabilities especially spaced based stuff which is far superor to anything PROC has, not to mention sat comms and GLONASS (which may not have full coverage but its still miles ahead of china). Large and capable russian strategic air power which PLAAF completly lacks, you'd have a hard time argueing H6's counted. In addition to that very capable counter strategic air power such as MiG 31's. Tactical and stratgic nuclear forces in both chases the chinese are completely outmatched. Quality and quantity of naval forces, in terms of naval aviation, ASW, SW, SSW and amhibious capability, not to mention operational docrorine, the russians are far superior. Quantity and perhaps quallity of materiel for ground operations the russians are also far superior.

You replyed to these points by asking me if i knew what i was talking about and then outlining a chinese shopping list as some sort of rebuttal to these points. In essence you didnt adress a single thing i said. You just attemped to make the russians look incompetent without dealing with their actuall capabilities. So why dont you quit with the shopping list and actualy deal with the substance of the conversation?

 

[rjmaz1]

Xander, you think much too highly of Russia. Don't forget Russia JUST CAN'T AFFORD THE STUFF IT DEVELOPS. Russia has only 30 Su-30s LOL. Xander, calm down, Russia is NOT the great power you think it is. China is no joke. China already has a bigger economy and more money.

Exactly thats why Russia should concentrate on selling alot of equipment with long term of plans of eventually buying much higher powered items.

There is no point keeping Russia keeping many squadrons of 4th generation aircraft in operating condition yet not making them operational in service. An aircraft that sits on the ground or gets flown once a year is worthless. Atleast selling the thing it gives some kind of return for your investment.

The more i search the more items i find that Russia has sold. They should step up this streamling. Most of the equipment they have now was top tier equipment during the cold war. After the cold war Russia became a second tier country and its equipment is now a tier down on US equipment. Having second rate equipment is useless for a country that no longer wants to second rate. If Russia once to be a superpower it needs equipment that is top tier. Upgraded Su-27's and Mig-29's will never be top tier equipment anymore.

The second rate aircraft can easily be sold to a country that is happy with having second rate equipment. Not every country wants to be a superpower operating 100 million dollar aircraft.

Sell the old stuff and bring on the PAK-FA in MASSIVE numbers, e.g 1000+ aircraft keeping the production line open for 20 years. If the Pak-fa is produced in insane numbers it will become so cheaper considering its capabilities that it could replace all of the Russian fighter/interceptors.

 

[Grand Danois]

not really, Beidou can work without ground based station, although it's less accurate. Beidou 2 is suppose to work without the ground based station.
http://www.sinodefence.com/strategic/spacecraft/beidou2.asp
In the near future, you can anticipate that at least the area around China should be under the umbrella of Beidou 2. And if you ever checked any of the guides on the satellite guided weapons of PLA, they work with multiple navigation systems + by INS alone. Why do you assume that Chinese satellite guided weapons are so badly designed that they cannot operate without Beidou?

I have never said the weapons were badly designed. I have never said the Beidou satellites were badly designed. I have also never said Chinese weapons do not work without Beidou. Show me where I said these things. How do you read this into what I say?

I have said that constellation of the original three Beidou does not suggest they were intended to support nav of air launched weapons. This is not bad design - this is design with a different objective.

The signal exists without proxy data, but is certainly not weapons delivery grade - it would probably do better with INS alone. This is a consequence of the layout of the three sat constellation.

I have said that it is a regional system. I.e. border to Russia not supported. Again geometry.

I have noted that with the launch of the fourth satellite, they will have windows of true sat nav in a specific region.

Hence not an operational capability. China will have that when they launch more sats. This is what I am saying. They are moving towards a real, multipurpose sat nav system - Beidou 2.

And yes, as I have said all the time, Beidou can work without the use of a diff systems or a pseudolite - because it uses proxy data as a substitute - but with a severe penalty on the northing.

 

[XaNDeR]

I mostly agree with ozzy on quote tphuang , and about crobato , you seem confident what your saying but your wrong , I don't have time to concentrate on you caus I have to go to work but when I come home il quote all of that and proove it wrong.. See ya

 

[Viktor]

The MiG-31 is not intended to go against fighters, but bombers

Yea right. MIG-31 is most potent platform ever to flown on the face of earth (except F-22).
Its R-37 missiles and newer R-37M are aerodynamicly unstable and provide great manervability against fighters. Its range was affirmed in 1994 whan it downed target drone at 300km distance. Than MIG-31 can carry R-33S SARH missile as well as R-27ER (130km range) and R-77 missile. Actualy MIG-31M can carry 6 R-37M missiles nad 4 R-77 and fly at 25km atitude and rain down at China fighter. With its atitude and max speed of Mach 2.83 (it has penetrated Mach 3) no CHINA R-77 or PL-12 stands a chance and guess what Russia at this moment has 40 MIG-31BM and all are being modernised on MIG-31M2 standard with mutch upgraded radar (on the basis of Irbis N035), longer supersonic range, new 200km missile etc.... so forget about those China Jxx fighter ... this is KING of all BVR fights.


Besides backbone of China airforce makes Russian fighters and Russian missiles. .... LOL

Each boat has a tiny RCS, so your destroyers and cruisers have to see them in their radars and by then, the larger ships would have given themselves away to the small boats because of the radar usage. Each 22 mounts 8 YJ-83s, that's the antiship firepower of an entire destroyer on a highly mobile and very low radar visible platform.

Just two weeks ago, 20 to 30 of these ships mounted a "surge" exercise kin joint coordination with Y-8 MPAs under heavy ECM conditions.

Those are litoral missile boats or would you go venture out on the blue waters with them???? and so what Russia made such missile boats over 30-40 years ago.

The PLAN does not regard the Sovies the best they have. The last set---still more advanced than any of the Sovies in the Russian fleet---is not followed up by new orders.

Perhaps Borei SSBN is nothing new to you or two of the same class being build or new Grany class SSGN 4th generation that will hit the water in 2009. Ships are introducing slowly but as you see Russia has advanced plans with navy and dont think thiese will not come true.

Like much of the RuAF, most of them are mothballed or waiting in the scrapyard

Perhaps for you .... but here take out the ships that where carring large naval excercise just recently (month ago)





http://i6.tinypic.com/4zu52l5.jpg
http://i17.tinypic.com/68224gh.jpg
http://i9.tinypic.com/6glaqdh.jpg
http://i10.tinypic.com/4ploo5l.jpg
http://i13.tinypic.com/52f8ifk.jpg
http://i7.tinypic.com/52wotih.jpg
http://i6.tinypic.com/6hdxks5.jpg
http://i14.tinypic.com/5z5x9pz.jpg



As you see all rusty waiting in the shipyard to be dismenteled ..... yea right all upgraded and operational ...



besides here is Vice-Admiral Kulakov Udaloy-1 destroyer 15 years ago ....

http://i15.tinypic.com/4t7iqs1.jpg

and here is it now

http://i16.tinypic.com/4q6vkfo.jpg


get the picture ......


here is second Project 1154 Neustrashimy

http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/5961/neustrassf2.jpg


707 OCHAKOV Project 1134.2 Kara-1 class

http://i12.tinypic.com/6czfql5.jpg



Russians are heavily upgrading its navy. Ad Nakimov of KIROV class is nearing back in operational service and is being fitted with 96 Yakhont missiles and navalised S-400. Does that seems rusty to you????

It will take a lot more than few days, more like years, to get the fleet up from a mothball condition first.

No navy is even required .... Tu-22M3 are just as good doung the job with each carring 3 Kh-22 MACH 4 cruise missiles 400km range ...

and what has China for defence ... Russian systems or copied Russian systems .... LOL LOL

Lol. The PLAN has more advanced Kilos than what the Russians have. And the Akula is actually an overrated and noisy beast. At least even the new Songs and Yuans have passive LF flank sonars, which none of the Kilos have.
And the Shkval is something the PLAN may have already copied.

Yes Akula is overated, Oscar-2 is overated .. everything is overated ... dream on .... you have nothing to compare with thiese babies whitch are by they way ALL being upgraded extensivly.

The Granit in my opinion, is one overrated missile. Those outdated '70s electronics are all going to be jammed, and the PLA probably knows more about Russian SIGINT than even the US.

Granit overated ... how YOU. Right 700 km MAch 3 missile with different fly paths and ENOURMOS warhead able to perform evasive manuevres at supersonic speeds and with ability to "decide" what missile will atack what depending on the ships and geography witch atack in wolf pack ...... for sure I can not imagine what can be more overated than that.

If that is true, why do the PLAN Kilos can fire Sizzlers underwater, making true SSGs, while the RuN Kilos don't? Why do the PLAN Sovremannies have Kashtans and the RuN Sovs don't? Why do the PLAN Sovs have a Sunburn version with twice the range of the Russian's?

Besides Russia is introducing AMOUR class with VLS lounchers of Sizzler missile ... there you are brabing around again with Russian weaponary... LOL
Kasthans have being retrofited on numerous Russian ships ... I have pics of it.... bat because of mess dont want to spent few hours searching for it.... KIROVS/KUZNJECOV and SLAVAS have them for sure....and navalised version of S-400 is being fited on Ad. Nakimov as we speek.

R-77D - Not Operational and still in early phases of development looking for funding.

R-37 is not an anti-fighter missile.

I belive R-77D is ready because even Ivanov mentioned new Russian air-to-air missile of 200km range .. and what else could it be.

R-37 as well as R-37M are meant for anti-fighter warfare as they are aerodynamicly unstable and have great manervability as well as K-100 Russia-India project based on 3M83 missile from S-300V system... so dream on about crapy PL-12.

That's a joke? Maybe in range, but not in stealth, low flying capability, ECM resistance, evasive maneuvers and the ability to vector in from multiple way points.

No surprise, that the Russians are going small and subsonic now with the Uran and Klub types.

This again is one big LOL... what are you talking... have you seen coastal Sizzler missile, have you seen 3E-54E, Yakhont, Brahmos, Sunburn ... new (1000km brahmos is in development as well as new HYPERSONIC universal missile (joint Indo-Russia development)) and there you go brabing about uran ---- LOL nfloorl:

Brahmos witch is based on Yakhont missile can in any weather day or night perform supersonic evasive manuevre and is universal missile able to be fired from any lounch pad and atack sea and land targets ...


3E-54M missile of CLUB-S system flys 4m abouve water line ....

The Shkval is made in a former Soviet Republic, which means you don't make it anymore. By the way, its been said that the PLAN has also acquired this technology. The Yu-6 is now in service with the PLAN subs, that's the equivalent to a Mk 48 torpedo.

Of course Skhval is not in production...because Skhval-2 is in development ...

Brahmos is certainly more advanced, but its co partnerned with the Indians. The Granit is probably overrated and outdated in today's complex electronic warfare. All these supersonic missiles have to fly higher in the water, which means they are easier to detect at range and intercepted.

Not true. Granit atacks in wolf pack and only one missile flys at 20km atitude geathering informations and sending it to other Granit missiles flying low above water line.

The real sea skimmers are the Sunburn, which the PLAN has the more advanced version, and appears that the PLAN has bought at least 500 according to KANWA; the Klub, which no RuN ship is equipped with, but which the PLAN has 8 Kilos equipped with and has ordered more of the missiles; and the Urans which are not used in the RuN but sold to India.

PLAN bought 500 Sunburns that are old and have 120km range.

Which RuN ships have operational Kashtan CIWS? You have a rather small handful of ships, like the carrier, the Kirovs, Neutrashimmys and the new corvette. The majority is using the AK-230 or AK-630, which are all chancey against sea skimmers. The PLAN also has the AK-630, which they license produce and has even improved with low RCS turret designs. Furthermore, the PLAN has gone past that with its Type 730 CIWS, which has become their standard CIWS for all new ships.

Navalised S-400, navalised TOR-M1, navalised BUK-M1-2 , Kortik-Kasthan are some of the systems that can be found on upgraded Kirov/Kuznjecov/Slava and some of the destroyers... besides development of the new Russian destroyer has being anounced.

Forget about AK-630 ....

Chinese sea skimmer YJ-83s have been observed with over 200km range. The first was spotted by US intel for a flight over 255km fired from a JH-7. Another observation was by Russian officers in the Peace Mission 2005 exercises where it did a surface to surface hit against a small moving target at over 200km range. The Russians didn't believe their eyes. The new YJ-62s have greater range than that. The export version is tauted with a 280km range and that seems modded to fit the MTCR limit, much less when you consider the domestic versions

So you have 300k range missile .... good for you ... Russia had 700km range missile 30 years ago .. no big deal .... China has made excellent progress in recent decade but good portion of it has to be tanks to Russians who sold their weapons and tehnology to China when no one wanted it and Russian needed it as well as China mastery in copy-paste tehniqe.

Wow you didn't read the PLAAF ORBAT now. There are nearly over 500 aircraft in the PLAAF now that is capable of using R-77 and PL-12. How much can you say that of the Russian air force.

thrut is that Russian air force gived more priority to R-27ER than early R-77 .... and what make you think that Russian fighters can not carry it?

Russian defense industry has the technology, but the Russian Air Force still cannot afford them. That's why they sell it to the PLAAF

That was true for to long period of time and has finaly came to an end. 190 Bin will be spend on modernization and new items by 2015.

As for training, how much hours does Russian pilots get? 20 hours per year? 60? 110?

Steadily increasing as economy progresses. Whats wrong with that in 1999 Russian defence budget was mearly 4 bin.

WRONG. Only the MiG-29C's can, which accounts for a very small fraction of the MiG-29 force. The majority are MiG-29As which are equipped with the R-27, a semiactive guided missile. And there is no plans in the RuAF to upgrade them to carry R-77s either

Yes there is plans of RuAF to upgrade ALL airforce including strategic and tactical bombers as MIG-31/27 and Su-24/27 as well introduce new models.

Which is nonsense. The new R-77 is not yet in service.

By the way, the PLAAF tested the R-77 and didn't think you can get 90km without flying at least Mach 1.5, at 15km altitude on a head on target. Wow, talk about arranging tests to get the best numbers possible.

Yes I think new R-77 is in service and has done all testings at least Ivanov seid new 200km range missile is being introduced in RuAF.

So Russkies sold you crapy R-77, does not prove a thing.

No they gave it to the Indians, and then the Chinese but still what the Chinese got was still much better than what the Russian Air Force had. As a matter of fact, the Su-27SM upgrade is based on the Su-30MKK technology---the latter now considered outdated by the PLAAF.

200 new Su-35BM for RuAF is not based on Su-30MKK and that number will be produced until PAK-FA starts entering production.

The PLAAF did their PL-12 tests at Mach 1.2 at 10,000 meters, which by the way they claimed at that altitude, the PL-12 had better range than the R-77.

Check out new 200km missile Ivanov said about it, new K-100, R-37M, R-33S SARH , R-27ER ....

Then you really have not updated yourself then. The 96G is now a 48 ton tank with ERA and a turret shaped like the ZTZ-99, with 1000hp engines. Any T-90 mod is actually the equivalent of the 96G as opposed to the -99, which by the way, is about 400 to 500.

Russian T-90A is on worst on the same pair with Type-99 .... new gun, new engine, thermal sights, RELIKT ERA etc ... and has new tank in development besides Black Eagle .... greater and greater numbers of tanks are beaing upgraded each year and if you look at the specs and pictures you will see how extensive these upgrades are.

 

[XaNDeR]

Good post Viktor , you stole all the questions xD

Btw id like to add 1 more thing.

Smerch range is 90km not 70km

And yeah the new Chinese system has range of 200km , but your forgeting its not even in service yet lol..

Besides Iskander outranges that system by far..