Can Russia regain it's Military Might?

[Preceptor]

Man - what a interesting topic and I hope that it doesn`t turn into a pissing contest by a couple of you because then we stand the chance of getting it closed. Both sides have brought out some good valid interesting points.

This does have the potential for being an interesting topic. Unfortunately as was rightly observed, it does seem to be spiralling into a "size-measuring" contest amongst some members. At present, the thread will remain open, but closely watched. I would suggest that members focus more on what Russia can do to rebuild its military strength and how it would accomplish that, as opposed to engaging in Platform A vs. Platform B comparisons, etc.

Failure to keep within the bounds of the forum rules http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php will lead to at least a temporary closing of this thread.

 

[XaNDeR]

Preceptor is right , look crobato you can think whatever you wan't , your just a little chinese patriot who is blind and thinks China is some SUPERPOWER , but in fact China's military is close to a shame ,a big clumsy old outdated army , who is modernizing in the past decades but is still 30 years away from US or EU or Russian tehnology , so think whatever you wan't your obviusly delusional.

 

[Viktor]

This does have the potential for being an interesting topic. Unfortunately as was rightly observed, it does seem to be spiralling into a "size-measuring" contest amongst some members. At present, the thread will remain open, but closely watched. I would suggest that members focus more on what Russia can do to rebuild its military strength and how it would accomplish that, as opposed to engaging in Platform A vs. Platform B comparisons, etc.

Failure to keep within the bounds of the forum rules http://defencetalk.com/forums/rules.php will lead to at least a temporary closing of this thread.

I agree and for that matter I will constrain myself to respond to Crobados flase claimes to avoid closing this excellent thread.

 

[eckherl]

Preceptor is right , look crobato you can think whatever you wan't , your just a little chinese patriot who is blind and thinks China is some SUPERPOWER , but in fact China's military is close to a shame ,a big clumsy old outdated army , who is modernizing in the past decades but is still 30 years away from US or EU or Russian tehnology , so think whatever you wan't your obviusly delusional.

Why do you keep stating that China is not a superpower, are you under the impression that you have to have the latest and greatest toys in weaponary to hold that status. I do not believe the argument that only the U.S can hold that status, you have to also look at how much influence a country has in critical decision making to the entire world body through the united nations as an example.

 

[XaNDeR]

Why do you keep stating that China is not a superpower, are you under the impression that you have to have the latest and greatest toys in weaponary to hold that status. I do not believe the argument that only the U.S can hold that status, you have to also look at how much influence a country has in critical decision making to the entire world body through the united nations as an example.

I am refering miself only to military , not economical or political.
And everything Viktor or Ozzy or me wrote before is perfectly good read and truth for everyone that is smart and has military knowledge or experte in any area will understand it !
So whatever anyone that doesn't know things about any other country except China is not my buisness its perfectly obvius that someone from China from false propaganda thinks that his country is the best when its clearly far from the truth , and nor I , nor Viktor or Nor Ozzy are not from China or Russia and I know both of them know alot of stuff and are very wise so id like too see who can observe and offer their knowledge based on non-patriotism since nobody is from any country mentioned.

The person that is from China and is under influence of patriotism and claiming such facts that are untrue and some even make you laugh ( no offence ) , allthough he knows few systems he clearly doesn't understand how things work..
Or 3 people that are from none of the country's and offer a outsider point of view ,and clearly have much experience on the field..
What do you think eckerl?
Your a expert yourself , go read every single post and tell me who's wrong?

Cheers

 

[Viktor]

To continue along this thread.... :nutkick


in our newest number of Croatian military magazine there is a article about nuclear subs and its future for (USA/V.Britain, France, Russia, India and China).

Interesting things said there is that Russia Oscar-2 sub ( I think author means about Belgorod althrow he does not specify) will hit the water by the end of the year and will replace lost Kursk sub.
It is also stated that two Projekt 971 will be finished for the lease to Indian navy witch goes along with other familiar news. (India-Russia negotiated for the lease of two nuclear subs)

But most interesting part is about projekt 885 Severodinsk new Russian 4th generation SSN ... author writes that by various sorces sub has already hit the water and will be officialy given to RUAN by the end of this or by the begining of the nexst year. ( If so thats a great news). Article states that sub will have 8 torpedo tubes and 24 VLS of SS-N-27 Alfa missiles. (acording to wiki it will have new strategic 3000km range Kh-101). Most intreging part on equal with NLO sigtings is that author says there is rumors that one more of the same class is being buld for foreign country.

 

[kato]

The German Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung (CDU-funded, conservative think tank) has published a 12-page report on the state of the Russian Military this month (in German, of course ).

The report contrasts current planning and official releases by the Russian Government with a view at the current state. Some highlights:

• 50% of all Russian aircraft and helicopters are inoperational
• 60% of all MiG-29, 50% of Su-27 and 40% of MiG-31 are fully operational
• Due to age and state of aircraft and helicopters, there will be massive decommissionings until 2009
• It's expected that by 2010 less than 2000 aircraft and 600 helicopters will remain operational.
• Similarly, only 10-12 out of 47 nuclear submarines are expected operational in 2010.
• Russian Military officers estimate that on average 150 aircraft and 60 helicopters would have to be procured new each year over the next 20-25 years in order to keep current levels
• Strategic Forces are heavily underfunded; 80% of all mobile ICBMs are beyond shelf life.
• To maintain strategic balance, 20-30 new Topol-M would have to be procured per year instead of last year's 7.
• Air defence looks abysmal; Russia plans to take all 70 S-300PS systems out of service in 2007, as well as 10 out of the 30 S-300PM. Of the remaining 20 S-300PM systems, only 15-20% are operational according to Russian officers. To provide full coverage, Russia would need up to 650 S-300 systems.
• Fuel and energy support for the Russian Military has remained at approximately one quarter of the needed levels for the last 10 years.
• 70% of all airfields/airports need urgent repairs
• 30% of all Russian Airforce conscripts are not fit for military service due to malnourishment; 70% overall are considered not fit for military service due to health reasons.
• Around 90 soldier die in Russian service per month, about one quarter due to suicide. This has been a continuous trend throughout 2005, and in the first half of 2006. 55% of former soldiers report physical abuse in their units.
• Instead of the official presentation of 25-30,000 new apartments for officers' dependants being built per year, only 1,100 families received such housing in 2005.
• 55% of Russians consider the combat capability of their troops as "low", only 24% as "high". 24% answer positive, 69% negative when asked about how they'd feel about a close relative serving in the military.

An interestingly high number of statements in that report are based upon interviews with Russian Major General (and Duma member) Nikolai Besborodow.

 

[harryriedl]

The German Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung (CDU-funded, conservative think tank) has published a 12-page report on the state of the Russian Military this month (in German, of course ).

The report contrasts current planning and official releases by the Russian Government with a view at the current state. Some highlights:

• 50% of all Russian aircraft and helicopters are inoperational
• 60% of all MiG-29, 50% of Su-27 and 40% of MiG-31 are fully operational
• Due to age and state of aircraft and helicopters, there will be massive decommissionings until 2009
• It's expected that by 2010 less than 2000 aircraft and 600 helicopters will remain operational.
• Similarly, only 10-12 out of 47 nuclear submarines are expected operational in 2010.
• Russian Military officers estimate that on average 150 aircraft and 60 helicopters would have to be procured new each year over the next 20-25 years in order to keep current levels
• Strategic Forces are heavily underfunded; 80% of all mobile ICBMs are beyond shelf life.
• To maintain strategic balance, 20-30 new Topol-M would have to be procured per year instead of last year's 7.
• Air defence looks abysmal; Russia plans to take all 70 S-300PS systems out of service in 2007, as well as 10 out of the 30 S-300PM. Of the remaining 20 S-300PM systems, only 15-20% are operational according to Russian officers. To provide full coverage, Russia would need up to 650 S-300 systems.
• Fuel and energy support for the Russian Military has remained at approximately one quarter of the needed levels for the last 10 years.
• 70% of all airfields/airports need urgent repairs
• 30% of all Russian Airforce conscripts are not fit for military service due to malnourishment; 70% overall are considered not fit for military service due to health reasons.
• Around 90 soldier die in Russian service per month, about one quarter due to suicide. This has been a continuous trend throughout 2005, and in the first half of 2006. 55% of former soldiers report physical abuse in their units.
• Instead of the official presentation of 25-30,000 new apartments for officers' dependants being built per year, only 1,100 families received such housing in 2005.
• 55% of Russians consider the combat capability of their troops as "low", only 24% as "high". 24% answer positive, 69% negative when asked about how they'd feel about a close relative serving in the military.

An interestingly high number of statements in that report are based upon interviews with Russian Major General (and Duma member) Nikolai Besborodow.

:coffee thats pretty grim reading the Russians should stop talking about CVN overflights of NATO and start feeding their troops

 

[eckherl]

I am refering miself only to military , not economical or political.
And everything Viktor or Ozzy or me wrote before is perfectly good read and truth for everyone that is smart and has military knowledge or experte in any area will understand it !
So whatever anyone that doesn't know things about any other country except China is not my buisness its perfectly obvius that someone from China from false propaganda thinks that his country is the best when its clearly far from the truth , and nor I , nor Viktor or Nor Ozzy are not from China or Russia and I know both of them know alot of stuff and are very wise so id like too see who can observe and offer their knowledge based on non-patriotism since nobody is from any country mentioned.

The person that is from China and is under influence of patriotism and claiming such facts that are untrue and some even make you laugh ( no offence ) , allthough he knows few systems he clearly doesn't understand how things work..
Or 3 people that are from none of the country's and offer a outsider point of view ,and clearly have much experience on the field..
What do you think eckerl?
Your a expert yourself , go read every single post and tell me who's wrong?

Cheers

Xander - you have brought up some good valid points, if they cannot accept it then do not play into their rubbish and just respond to individuals who can have a good straight forward debate with you.

 

[Viktor]

Nothing mutch has being said there no matter how grim that looks like.
I will try to explain.

50% of all Russian aircraft and helicopters are inoperational

LOL ... count all fighters active and inactive (in RESERVES), devide them , multiply by 100 and you will get results... big deal ... you can count active and inactive (in reserves) USA F-16 fighters and you will get same grim results.

60% of all MiG-29, 50% of Su-27 and 40% of MiG-31 are fully operational

MIG-29:

270 in active force
150 in reserves ...

acount for 64.2% of all operational MIG-29 ... German said 60% witch is in line


MIG-31:

286 in active service
100 in reserve

account for 74% of all operational MIG-31 fighters .. German sources said 40% ... well even Ivanov said all MIG-31 will pass throw extensive modernization MIG-31M2 ... since MIG-31 is interceptor of most importance for Russia.


etc .... so that diference in figures might be correct or false .. I dont realy know ...

Due to age and state of aircraft and helicopters, there will be massive decommissionings until 2009

Or massive upgrade!

It's expected that by 2010 less than 2000 aircraft and 600 helicopters will remain operational.

Like thats small number!

Similarly, only 10-12 out of 47 nuclear submarines are expected operational in 2010.

LOL this greatly discredites this source ....


Current state of Russian nuclear subs

SSBN Delta III 5
SSBN Delta IV 5
SSBN Typhoon 3
SSGN Oscar II 6
SSN Akula 9
SSN Alfa 1
SSN Sierra I 1
SSN Sierra II 2
SSN Victor III 4


that accounts for 36 nuclear subs ... so German sources claim 26 of thiese will be deccomissioned by 2010 while one Borei is in the water and 2 new will hit the water in 2009 (Borei and Graney class).

Russian Military officers estimate that on average 150 aircraft and 60 helicopters would have to be procured new each year over the next 20-25 years in order to keep current levels

Well whats that suposed to mean ... that every year Russia withdrows 150 aircraft and 60 helicopters ... LOL by that estimate Russia WILL losse all its airforce in 14 years .... and since breakup of Soviet union 17 years already has passed and nothing like that happened... LOL LOL and that was time at whitched Russian military budget was around few Bin.

Strategic Forces are heavily underfunded; 80% of all mobile ICBMs are beyond shelf life.

This is true... BUT at the same time Russia is testing about 5-10 thiese missiles every year (lounching foreign satelites on them and earning money) and efficiency so far has bein 100% ... so this means nothing. Besides new Topol-M are entering finaly in numbers and from 2009 all Topol-M will start reciving MARV vehicle and new RS-24 will enter serial production. Only this year 17 new ICBM has being made for Russian space forces.

To maintain strategic balance, 20-30 new Topol-M would have to be procured per year instead of last year's 7.

Russia will eventualy field 200-300 mobile ICBM ... thats her plan + nuclear bombs on cruise missiles from Strategic aviation and SLBM from SSBN. All is going well according to Strategic reduction threaties signed betwen Russia-America ...

Air defence looks abysmal; Russia plans to take all 70 S-300PS systems out of service in 2007, as well as 10 out of the 30 S-300PM. Of the remaining 20 S-300PM systems, only 15-20% are operational according to Russian officers. To provide full coverage, Russia would need up to 650 S-300 systems.

Now this is specialy stupid. Nothing is being said about S-300PMU, S-300PMU2 , S-400, S-300V, S-300VM system witch Russia fields in great numbers. S-300P/PM/PS are oldest and they will be withdrown as S-400 enters service... besides according to Russian plans ALL of thiese systems will be replaced with S-400 by 2015.

Fuel and energy support for the Russian Military has remained at approximately one quarter of the needed levels for the last 10 years.

For the last 10 years ... well in 1999 Russian military budget was 4 Bin... what do you expect ... now is a different story.

70% of all airfields/airports need urgent repairs

Catching by the strow! nfloorl:

30% of all Russian Airforce conscripts are not fit for military service due to malnourishment; 70% overall are considered not fit for military service due to health reasons

Goes along previous statemants and is one big BULL.

Russia is preorienteted to profesional military ... so forget about constripts... and right 70% of Russians dont have something to eat ... GREAT nfloorl:

Around 90 soldier die in Russian service per month, about one quarter due to suicide. This has been a continuous trend throughout 2005, and in the first half of 2006. 55% of former soldiers report physical abuse in their units.

This is true and is nothing new.That figure thow oul cold war has being even bigger, because Russian generals aproved such physical and fisical horasment so only strongest could menage throw Russian (LOL ) constripct training... Now that figure has come to 1000 per year witch means great measures has being done to improve such state in Russian army.

Instead of the official presentation of 25-30,000 new apartments for officers' dependants being built per year, only 1,100 families received such housing in 2005.

Well for 2008 year figure is 150 000 witch means 5500 families will recive such housing witch is good improvment.

55% of Russians consider the combat capability of their troops as "low", only 24% as "high". 24% answer positive, 69% negative when asked about how they'd feel about a close relative serving in the military.

Same thing everywhere .... in capitalistic state money is most important thing so there is no sence to go to military anymore and all will try to avoid it by all means posible.

Besides only few years ago Russia has start to incress its military budget so takes some time before modernization plans and new items hit the road.

 

[Waylander]

@Kato
Do you really want to join this brawl.
There is so much fanboy behaviour and patriotic behaviour in this thread. Do you really think it is worth it?

@The rest of the crowd
This was an interesting thread till some guys started shouting at each other while stating some dubious facts and comparing platforms by describing their capabilities in 1-2 sentences.
This is hilarious...

 

[kato]

@Kato
Do you really want to join this brawl.
There is so much fanboy behaviour and patriotic behaviour in this thread. Do you really think it is worth it?

Just throwing a piece of meat to the pack, then leaving it for them to fight over

 

[scarey1989]

Agreed Waylander and Ercle. Lets have a debate rather than an imature brawl

BTW, it was me who set up this interesting thread about russia regaining its power, not china v russia.

However, as some of you are comapring China and Russia go to this link, you may find it very interesting in solving this argument in terms of a war, not in terms of quality of armed forces.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries_comparison_detail.asp

 

[scarey1989]

Agreed Waylander and Ercle. Lets have a debate rather than an imature brawl

BTW, it was me who set up this interesting thread about russia regaining its power, not china v russia.

However, as some of you are comapring China and Russia go to this link, you may find it very interesting in solving this argument in terms of a war, not in terms of quality of armed forces.

http://www.globalfirepower.com/countries_comparison_detail.asp

Once you are on the site click BACK at top left of page and then choose the counrties that you would like to compare.

IMPORTANT: it does not take NUCLEAR weapons into account

 

[Waylander]

The numbers presented there are totally wrong.

Was this link worth the series of oneliners you produced in various other threads to collect some posts?


Sorry, if I sound a little bit harsh here in my last posts but I get the feeling that in the last weeks the number of onelinewonders has increased on this nice site.

 

[scarey1989]

The numbers presented there are totally wrong.

Was this link worth the series of oneliners you produced in various other threads to collect some posts?


Sorry, if I sound a little bit harsh here in my last posts but I get the feeling that in the last weeks the number of onelinewonders has increased on this nice site.

yes it was worth it and and some of the values are wrong but a leat they give you some idea.

any way, why do you really care about one liners, does it really effect you that much

Mod edit: One liners, and for that matter excessive emoticons, are against forum rules. They add little to any discussion or debate that is occuring, and most frequently distract and detract from same. You have made approximately 6 one liner responses in the past hour, stop doing that or you will be banned for a cooling off period. First Warning.
-Preceptor

 

[Waylander]

Besides the fact that they are against the rules...yeah, they affect me.
They tend to interrupt fine threads.

And the numbers are no hint whatsoever. They are sometimes too big by thousands of platforms. Some countries are highly overrated.

 

[XaNDeR]

Waylander is right , that site is bullcrap

 

[kato]

Waylander is right , that site is bullcrap

Iirc that site doesn't give real numbers, but "weighted numbers" in most of its specs (exception: "naval units", which takes all units of a navy, whether combatant or not).

As usual, i'll recommend CFE for such comparisons. If you can read your way through that, that is

 

[wittmanace]

@waylander

as german with armour experience (iirc), have you gotten to use former sov armoured equipment at all (from east germany)? if so, do you reckon the russian approach has moved from quantity to quality or not(just in armour)? and do you reckon the russian equipment on a vehicle to vehicle basis has improved in a comparison with nato equipment?

sorry, if this is all armour questions, but i figured as it is russian armour and its change, it fits in this thread....