Can Russia regain it's Military Might?

[XaNDeR]

Danois yes , I didn't mean 9700 in active service that was my bad , from all the info there are aproximetly 2300 ~ T-72 in full active service
They actualy have more T-64's active , aproximetly 3500.
around 3100 T-80 active and around 290 T-90 active.

 

[eckherl]

Danois yes , I didn't mean 9700 in active service that was my bad , from all the info there are aproximetly 2300 ~ T-72 in full active service
They actualy have more T-64's active , aproximetly 3500.
around 3100 T-80 active and around 290 T-90 active.

And just think, all those T-80s are mid eighties models, the majority of the T-72s are B models. It will be very expensive to get their T-80 fleet back to T-80U or UD standards, (they only have a couple of hundred of those still around), so I wouldn`t think it will happen plus they do not operate the T-80s facility any longer. No Black Eagle sales pretty much ended any major upgrade packages for the T-80. But as I said prior, patience and time is on their side for what they currently have.

 

[wittmanace]

selling off too much military equipment would flood the market and limit their other export potential, if not kill it....and for a long time no doubt. it would be ak syndrome, where the durability of these planes and their availability for low cost could/would destroy russia's export market for a very long time. it would perhaps be better, if they do sell, to sell the parts as spares, or use these parts as deal sweeteners for other exports...or even as military aid in limited numbers to key allies, so removing maintenance and repairs cost, whilst gaining something but without killing their export market.

 

[Waylander]

There is a big problem with stocks.
Tanks tend to suffer more from standing around than from being used in day to day service. It is no fun to get a tank back into normal service after it stood around for some month without being moved.
Now imagine that for sovjet era stuff which is in stocks for more than a decade...

 

[eckherl]

Here is a prime example of a tank that has sat for many many years, it will most likely have to be rebuilt from the ground up, that will be very expensive.

 

[rjmaz1]

Im sure your joking about selling the Tu-22M and Mig-31 , thats insane.
Tu-22M is a VERY VERY capable supersonic bomber , russia absolutely needs them for many reasons.
Mig-31's are Interceptors that Russian Airforce need , they are designed to intercept bombers and AWACS..

You are thinking short term.

Yes i know they are needed. But selling/retiring these aircraft will allow for the Russians stealth aircraft to arrive sooner and be purchased in greater numbers. Short term loss giving a long term gain. This will mean the Russia military would be weaker in 10 years time, but in 20 years time it will be better.

I am thinking longer term.

And as you see upgrading Su-27's , Mig-31's and Mig-29's is pretty cheap if you consider what it would be buying new more capable aircraft.

You have got to be joking about upgrading all of the current aircraft and making them operational. Doing this would consume the entire Russian budget for the next decade. Minimal amounts of money could be put towards advanced future aircraft. Russia has no money to do both.

What you suggest would allow Russia to become the second best air force as it would have over a thousand 4.5 generation fighters. It could acheive this in a relatively short period of time, possibly even 10 years.

However my suggesting would make Russia a much inferior smaller force in 10 years time. But so many new aircraft would be in the pipeline that in 20 years from now my suggested path would give a far greater end result.

Upgraded Su-27 or Mig-31's will stand no chance against the F-22. They must take a significant short term loss to get a quicker long term gain.

I don't even understand your post good but selling Tu-22M or Mig-31 is a stupid move , if you say that then you probably don't know alot about the 2 aircraft.

Yes but they are niche aircraft. An upgraded SU-30 can do a good job in the interceptor role. Again not quite as good but it will save money. This will allow for the Russian stealth aircraft to arrive sooner. Russia would then have a fighter that can perform the interceptor role better than the Mig-31 and the fighter role better than the SU-30. With your proposal of keeping the Mig-31 Russia be a decade behind when procuring its new stealth fighter/interceptor.

The Tu-22M is also a Niche aircraft. It sits nicely between the SU-24 fencer strike fighter and the Tu-160 black jack heavy bomber. Selling off the Tu-22M would mean Russia has no medium range option. Either the SU-34 or Tu-160 would have to perform their mission. The mission can still be performed but with fewer aircraft available. This is the price you pay for streamlining.

Btw why would they sell all the Mi-24? They are still very capable and effective just look at Chechnya..

Reduction in ongoing maintenance costs will free up alot of money. As they are still effective they will sell easily and provide further addition income.

selling off too much military equipment would flood the market and limit their other export potential, if not kill it....and for a long time no doubt.

It would indeed flood the market. It would also reduce sales of USAF aircraft. If you have an SU-30 for 30 million and a F-15 for 60 million alot of countries will buy the F-15 because its a safer option. If the Suhkoi was only 5 million then it would be so cheap that even western nations would be tempted to buy them.

Russia could slowly release aircraft in batchs... Say release 200 aircraft and they may very well have a bidding war between China, India and Iran... Then release a second batch.. then a third.. each time saying this will be the last.

Countries who could only afford basic F-16's could instead buy THREE!! upgraded Mig-29's for the same money. You could use one for spare parts. So for the same money you have:
Twice as many aircraft.
Each aircraft being more advanced.
Huge supply of spares from the third aircraft.

Currently Russian aircraft are sold brand new for 50-60% the price of comparible western aircraft. With their higher maintainance costs it doesn't works out similar in the end so most countries buy western. If the price was 10-20% the cost of a comparible western aircraft that you would be crazy not to buy them even if they only had half their life left.

I could think of many countries that buy European/US aircraft that would have gone with Russia aircraft if the price was extremely low.

Arming India, China and Iran to the teeth will put alot of pressure on the US to spend hundreds of billions more. All this while Russia made money!

This is the smart move.

 

[XaNDeR]

You are thinking short term.

Yes i know they are needed. But selling/retiring these aircraft will allow for the Russians stealth aircraft to arrive sooner and be purchased in greater numbers. Short term loss giving a long term gain. This will mean the Russia military would be weaker in 10 years time, but in 20 years time it will be better.

I am thinking longer term.

I disagree , selling/retiring such amazing aircraft would not be very smart , it just doesn't work like that because the Mig-29 and Su-27's both have much more life span , and retiring them before would be stupid , why ? They are perfectly fine and capable of taking on almost any fighter in the world , I understand what you mean but wouldn't be a good idea , these fighters are needed to keep the russian air secure from a potential threat and they have a life span that is still long to be expired , besides look the modernized Mig-29 ( Mig-35 ) will be 1 AMAZING multipurpose fighter , with great thrust to weight , manevrability , avionics .etc.. Same goes for modernized Su-27 , look which aircraft is more capable than them ? And even more so with R-77D that is head to head with AIM-120 as the top BVR missile .. Not many , Raptor is 1 , Eurofighter will already have problems , and I don't see any others that will, so you see the long term goal might have been more succesfull but more so , they are still needed ,and they can always sell them later when they already have a bounch of new stealth planes to keep the advantage on their side.

You have got to be joking about upgrading all of the current aircraft and making them operational. Doing this would consume the entire Russian budget for the next decade. Minimal amounts of money could be put towards advanced future aircraft. Russia has no money to do both.

I did not say upgrading all aircraft , but slowly modernizing them , not all , removing / selling low numbers and modernizing the rest..

What you suggest would allow Russia to become the second best air force as it would have over a thousand 4.5 generation fighters. It could acheive this in a relatively short period of time, possibly even 10 years.

Which airforce except USAF is more capable both effectivly and effeciently at the present time? Considering all factors , defencive and offencive capability's aswell as strategic asets such as strategic bombers which are a major power projection. None.

Upgraded Su-27 or Mig-31's will stand no chance against the F-22. They must take a significant short term loss to get a quicker long term gain.

They don't need to , it is not their intent.
Su-27 was designed to counter F-15 , and even at the present its amazing , it would be able to engage any aircraft short of Raptor , PAK-FA is the project that will be designed on air superiority.
And Mig-31 .. well , lets just say Mig-31 is the best interceptor there is if suited the role it has , its a deadly bomber/awacs killer , its perfect for the job with R-33 high range missiles and a powerfull radar , the updated versions are outstanding and something the russian air force can't do without.

Yes but they are niche aircraft. An upgraded SU-30 can do a good job in the interceptor role. Again not quite as good but it will save money. This will allow for the Russian stealth aircraft to arrive sooner. Russia would then have a fighter that can perform the interceptor role better than the Mig-31 and the fighter role better than the SU-30. With your proposal of keeping the Mig-31 Russia be a decade behind when procuring its new stealth fighter/interceptor.

How so? PAK-FA will be intended toward air superiority , Mig-31's primary job is destruction of enemy bombers/awacs , they are needed in the air force for the moment and they are certainly too powerfull to sell in high numbers as export , especialy to China.

The Tu-22M is also a Niche aircraft. It sits nicely between the SU-24 fencer strike fighter and the Tu-160 black jack heavy bomber. Selling off the Tu-22M would mean Russia has no medium range option. Either the SU-34 or Tu-160 would have to perform their mission. The mission can still be performed but with fewer aircraft available. This is the price you pay for streamlining.

Tu-22M is 1 amazing aircraft and is also 1st a main part of russian air force and 2nd too powerfull to sell in large numbers to any country..
Just look at the Reduga cruise missiles , or the new Koala , they are amazing , they can be launched from 4000km with speed up to 6 mach , and Tu-22M's speed and range is outstanding , it makes it a very very deadly aircraft for both land targets and sea targets alike such as for example CSG's.

 

[rjmaz1]

I disagree , selling/retiring such amazing aircraft would not be very smart , it just doesn't work like that because the Mig-29 and Su-27's both have much more life span , and retiring them before would be stupid , why ?

No offence but i cannot spell it out any clearer for you. You are either as thick as a brick or you just want to argue.

The reason why they should sell them is.... if Russia does not retire/sell them they will be wasteing all their money on upgrades and maintenance which could be better spent on getting the PAK-FA operational sooner and in great numbers.

Russia has limited amounts of money. It cant make the PAK-FA operational soon AND upgrade all its current aircraft. You have to choose one or the other. You have no idea if you think Russia can upgrade the majority of its Aircraft and still afford to develop the PAK-FA and buy it in high numbers. It will enter service but it may be a decade late.

I did not say upgrading all aircraft , but slowly modernizing them , not all , removing / selling low numbers and modernizing the rest..

The SU-27/30's should be upgraded to the latest standard as they are the most versatile in my opinion. Everything else will be kept the same and most items slowly sold off.

The more aircraft you modernise the less money Russia will have to develop, test and buy its PAK-FA Su-50. With my suggestion Russia may have 500 PAK-FA's in service in 2020. With your suggestion of upgrading more older aircraft the PAK-FA development would be slower and in 2020 it may only getting its first squadron in service.

They don't need to , it is not their intent.
Su-27 was designed to counter F-15 , and even at the present its amazing , it would be able to engage any aircraft short of Raptor

Thats great that the SU-27 is amazing and can compete against the F-15.. too bad it will no longer have a chance to fight against an F-15 in combat.. It will be up against the F-22 from here on in..

PAK-FA is the project that will be designed on air superiority....

Yes but the PAK-FA would now be a decade behind schedule because you decided to waste all your money upgrading the current aircraft.

There is no point upgrading the majority of the current fighters only to have them severely outmatched by the F-22. Retiring/selling most of them will allow the PAK-FA to get here much sooner and in greater numbers. Russia will finnally be able to compete against the USAF.

And Mig-31 .. well , lets just say Mig-31 is the best interceptor there is.

Until they all get shot down by the F-22.....

Or will it try and interceptor an F-22? oh wait it wont even be able to detect it.

Mig-31's primary job is destruction of enemy bombers/awacs , they are needed in the air force for the moment and they are certainly too powerfull to sell in high numbers as export , especialy to China..

The Mig-31's wont destroy any enemy Awacs. A certain aircraft called the Raptor will get in their way...

Too powerful for export? That why they will sell like hot cakes!! China alone would buy 200 of them if it had the chance. Russia could advertise its Mig-31's as having the best chance against the F-22 of any other aircraft. The chance may be slim to none but it does have the best chance.

Until PAK-FA arrives... which with your proposal will be a further 10 years away as you are stole money trying to refurb 4th generation fighters.

Tu-22M is 1 amazing aircraft and is also 1st a main part of russian air force and 2nd too powerfull to sell in large numbers to any country..

Another reason why it will sell like hotcakes. China would have an aircraft that can strike Japan. India would have an aircraft that could reach Australia and Iran would have an aircraft that could strike Israel.

Russia would make so much money from selling second rate aircraft that would get slaughtered by the USAF. Selling them would allow the PAK-FA to arrive sooner and in greater numbers. Russia will no longer be getting slaughtered by the USAF.

 

[9ak]

USAF fighting against Russia isn´t very likely in the future. USA and Russia are allies now. So there is no need for Russians to have aircraft dedicated to match F-22.

 

[Waylander]

Since when are Russia and the USA allied?

They are not on the same level like during the cold war but it is also not the most friendly relationship.

 

[swerve]

Danois yes , I didn't mean 9700 in active service that was my bad , from all the info there are aproximetly 2300 ~ T-72 in full active service
They actualy have more T-64's active , aproximetly 3500.
around 3100 T-80 active and around 290 T-90 active.

That sounds about right for the complement of the nominally active units.

But a large proportion of those units are actually effectively first-line reserves, too lightly manned to operate their equipment. They have to be: army manpower is less than half what's needed to fill the supposedly active units.

I'd classify a large proportion of that lot as in reserve, but "active" reserve, not storage.

 

[Chrom]

There is a big problem with stocks.
Tanks tend to suffer more from standing around than from being used in day to day service. It is no fun to get a tank back into normal service after it stood around for some month without being moved.
Now imagine that for sovjet era stuff which is in stocks for more than a decade...

In general case yes, but if tanks/planes was specially prepared for long storage - than no. Specially prepared they can be stored for 30 years without any problem.

 

[Chrom]

That sounds about right for the complement of the nominally active units.

But a large proportion of those units are actually effectively first-line reserves, too lightly manned to operate their equipment. They have to be: army manpower is less than half what's needed to fill the supposedly active units.

I'd classify a large proportion of that lot as in reserve, but "active" reserve, not storage.

There are basically 3 levels of readness in russian army:
1. Active 1st grade units - they are full-strenght or almost full-strength, with active duty and training process
2. "Reduced" active units - they are fully supplied by technic & equipment, fully retains command sttructure, have active duty and training. A part of technic is in long-time storage. Have reduced solders manpower. Can be almost instanly brought to full strenght.
3. "Reduced" reserve units - command structure at reduced strength, technic is almost completely in long-time storage, little active duty and weak training. Almost no soldiers. Will require long time (several weeks) to reach full strength. In this type of units technic quality differs a lot. They might have relative new tanks in good shape or old tanks with only hulls left. They officers might be average trained or not trained at all... Depending from division commander...

 

[f-22fan12]

Since when are Russia and the USA allied?

They are not on the same level like during the cold war but it is also not the most friendly relationship.

They are not great allies, but they will never fight each other again. There is no need for Russia to procure weapons for a mythical conflict with the U.S.A.

 

[Chrom]

They are not great allies, but they will not ever fight each other again. There is no need for Russia to procure weapons for a mythical conflict with the U.S.A.

Based on what mythical conflict USA procure more weapon than the rest of the world? Conflict with Bin Laden?

 

[swerve]

There are basically 3 levels of readness in russian army:
1. Active 1st grade units - they are full-strenght or almost full-strength, with active duty and training process
2. "Reduced" active units - they are fully supplied by technic & equipment, fully retains command sttructure, have active duty and training. A part of technic is in long-time storage. Have reduced solders manpower. Can be almost instanly brought to full strenght.
...

Going by the number of units & the manpower, there can't be many 1st grade units.

BTW, "almost instantly" assumes that the reserve mobilisation system is working very well, & reserves allocated to category 2 units are up to scratch. What state is reserve refresher training in nowadays?

 

[XaNDeR]

No offence but i cannot spell it out any clearer for you. You are either as thick as a brick or you just want to argue.

The reason why they should sell them is.... if Russia does not retire/sell them they will be wasteing all their money on upgrades and maintenance which could be better spent on getting the PAK-FA operational sooner and in great numbers.

Russia has limited amounts of money. It cant make the PAK-FA operational soon AND upgrade all its current aircraft. You have to choose one or the other. You have no idea if you think Russia can upgrade the majority of its Aircraft and still afford to develop the PAK-FA and buy it in high numbers. It will enter service but it may be a decade late.


The SU-27/30's should be upgraded to the latest standard as they are the most versatile in my opinion. Everything else will be kept the same and most items slowly sold off.

The more aircraft you modernise the less money Russia will have to develop, test and buy its PAK-FA Su-50. With my suggestion Russia may have 500 PAK-FA's in service in 2020. With your suggestion of upgrading more older aircraft the PAK-FA development would be slower and in 2020 it may only getting its first squadron in service.


Thats great that the SU-27 is amazing and can compete against the F-15.. too bad it will no longer have a chance to fight against an F-15 in combat.. It will be up against the F-22 from here on in..


Yes but the PAK-FA would now be a decade behind schedule because you decided to waste all your money upgrading the current aircraft.

There is no point upgrading the majority of the current fighters only to have them severely outmatched by the F-22. Retiring/selling most of them will allow the PAK-FA to get here much sooner and in greater numbers. Russia will finnally be able to compete against the USAF.

Until they all get shot down by the F-22.....

Or will it try and interceptor an F-22? oh wait it wont even be able to detect it.




The Mig-31's wont destroy any enemy Awacs. A certain aircraft called the Raptor will get in their way...

Too powerful for export? That why they will sell like hot cakes!! China alone would buy 200 of them if it had the chance. Russia could advertise its Mig-31's as having the best chance against the F-22 of any other aircraft. The chance may be slim to none but it does have the best chance.

Until PAK-FA arrives... which with your proposal will be a further 10 years away as you are stole money trying to refurb 4th generation fighters.



Another reason why it will sell like hotcakes. China would have an aircraft that can strike Japan. India would have an aircraft that could reach Australia and Iran would have an aircraft that could strike Israel.

Russia would make so much money from selling second rate aircraft that would get slaughtered by the USAF. Selling them would allow the PAK-FA to arrive sooner and in greater numbers. Russia will no longer be getting slaughtered by the USAF.

Again , your logic is pretty good but in the long term , in the short term its not very smart move and dangerous one , Its very unlikely that anyone would dare to attack Russia with the vast nuclear arsenal that they have , but lets say if they would do such a move , and remove from service or sell all the Mig-29 ( beeing modernized as Mig-35 ) , Mig-31's and Tu-22M's , those are very strong weapons and China or few other country's would get a big advantage and pose a theoretical threat , aswell as leaving russia almost defencless , without a significant airforce and / or strategic strike force it is potentialy vulnerable , lets think about it , with the great airforce that they currently have , backed up by all those layers of anti air systems , from TOR, too S-300 variants , to S-400 etc ... with strategic bombers that can offer support ( Especialy Tu-22M and Tu-142 in case the potential enemy would try to attack with their fleet , with all those weapons shoulder to shoulder there is not a single force that could threaten to penetrate the north fleet backed up by the airforce , shore battery's and strategic bombers , not even the mighty USN.

Now lets say that Russians sold all that equipment and have only about 200 Su-27's left , without strategic bombers and great interceptors such as Mig-31's ( Which btw can shot AWACS as opposite as you claimed).

With such move Russia would be vulnerable , and have almost no support to give to their navy in case of an attack , they could not even bomb the supply 's beeing shiped to the opposite navy because they would have no strategic bombers , they would be very vulnerable , thats why its very hard to make such a step ..
Would you be willing to take that kind of risk ?

 

[f-22fan12]

Based on what mythical conflict USA procure more weapon than the rest of the world? Conflict with Bin Laden?

My point was that Russia and the USA will never fight so why should Russia make weapons in the interest of defeating the USA?

 

[9ak]

There is a big problem with stocks.
Tanks tend to suffer more from standing around than from being used in day to day service. It is no fun to get a tank back into normal service after it stood around for some month without being moved.
Now imagine that for sovjet era stuff which is in stocks for more than a decade...

Maybe. Current protective coatings are very effective. It evaporizes and sticks to everything. It comes like coating inside of plastic bag for small arms and small hardware or like tablet for big stuff - put it inside of a tank and it will stick to interior. It is effective for decades.

 

[Viktor]

Russia has no reason to sell anything coz every peace of military hardware in its inventory was developt and design according to its military doctrine whitch is excellent in any scenario.

I have read here someone sugesting selling MIG-31 a letting Su-27 doung the job of interception. I would like to remind that only F-22 stand chance against this inteceptor. It atitude of flight is 25km :nutkick and can supercruise at Mach 2.35 for 1500 km. In 1994 with R-37 missile shoot target drone at 300km range, and R-37 unlike R-33 is aerodynamicly unstable and has great manervability as K-100 ( Russia India project) .... may I remind whats the range of AIM-120 fired at MIG-31 flying 5km at least abouve your head in chase and can go up to Mach 2.83 (even Mach 3 was reached at practice) ... i say not worth mentionig.

So Russia brought excellent decision by deciding to modernize ALL MIG-31B to MIG-31M2 standard.

Specs of MIG-31M

- single-piece windscreen (front cockpit)
- LERX, to improve its AoA
- In-Flight refueling probe installed to the right side
- larger/chubbier spine for accomodating larger fuel and improved avionics
- wingtip hardpoins pods (ECM)
- Zaslon-M (improved radar)
- new IRST
- 6 x R-37 under fuselage in 2 rows of 3 each (from front -back)
- 4 x R-77 underwing pylons ---- huh huh huh (imagine 10 BVR missiles)
- 23 mm gun was deleted
- sat nav reciever
- rear cockpit with 3 large MFDs
- front cockpit MFD
- 9,000 kg weapons load (?), optimised for strike (same as BM?)


MIG-31BM
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/1629/mig31bmtt5.jpg


Rear copckit of MIG-31BM
http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/4396/mig31bmrearvy4.jpg


http://img161.imageshack.us/img161/3917/cockpitqk8.jpg

Areal refuling
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/91/img5683smsr2di2.jpg


http://i18.tinypic.com/680nqeb.jpg

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/4346/mig31m37ot9.jpg