Roleplay: African Army Buildup

[MarcH]

You are right about mortars, some 40/50mm light mortars and the ususal russian/chinese 82mm mortars couldn't hurt. 12,7 mm MG's as well as RPG's are no bad idea either.
Nethertheless I want the Kornets as some kind of big stick.

What I really don't like are the Hinds. Helicopters didn't look good in Iraq and Afganistan.
My first idea, the L-159 wasn't very good. The "easternized" version isn't ready yet, and PGM's available are only GBU-12/16.
So give me Su-25/39 instead, including some doubleseaters. They are cheap, robust, and share some weapons with the MiG's.

 

[Waylander]

I also like the Su-25s.
Those planes are nearly ideal (If you get the pilots for them) for the envisioned role of CAS and ground attack missions.
Buy'em!

I would like to exclude events like the beating the Apaches took during OIF when bad intelligence and mission planning led them into an urban trap.
And while sometimes helicopters look bad in Iraq we are talking mainly about transport choppers.
That's not the fault of the helicopter itself.
Attack helicopters are much less targets and in A-stan they are prized as support for the guys on the ground.

 

[MarcH]

I think it is not possible to compare Apaches with Hinds. The Cobra would imo fit better.
However, the Soviet A-stan war as well as Chechnya wars offer some experience. In that light I don't believe in the effectiveness of attack choppers.
Modernized Hinds don't even offer the commonality with the Mi-17 any more.

Could you provide more info about the used trucks ? ZIL 130/131 ? GAZ 66 ? Ural ? Mix of them ? And some numbers ?

 

[Waylander]

In the end in A-stan the Apaches deliver quick and acurate firepower and can take some beating by enemy small arms fire.

That you are screwed when you have to deal with a serious AAA and MANPAD threat when trying to do CAS is out of question. But than it is unimportant if you sit in an Apache or Hind.

I am thinking of fighting insurgents which should not be that much better equipped than for example current threats in A-stan.
The Hind would also allow for nice CSAR and small force insertions as well as a quick and mobile AT-platform when needed.

I agree that purchasing Hinds shouldn't be top priority and getting the fixed wing assets in shape is more important but it should be thought about getting the Hinds (Or maybe some Cobras) in the not so distant future.

 

[MarcH]

The difference between Apache and Hind is the way they operate. Hinds are usually used in slashing attacks, and keep their speed up. They are similar in design to the (first) Blackhawk. Pretty large wings, that provide some lift and contribute to high top speed.
Apache is more that hover type chopper, with better manouverability. (If you want the western way of a tank hunter)
By the way, I think in Falludja the Apache proved to be an outstanding machine. It is close to a miracle that nearly all of those Apaches brought their crews back.
On the other hand, this is as well the example for the limits of the attack helicopter.
The Cobras of the Marines have far less write offs with a tactic similar to the Soviet doctrine. (In that way I wrote they are more similar to the Hind).

 

[Waylander]

The Apaches are fading away from their old hover heavy tactics.
This work well when they were performing fast pop-ups while firing their Hellfires as fast as they could against enemy tank columns.

But in A-stan and Iraq they are engaging enemy forces also in a much more mobile way.

 

[kato]

It's actually interesting that African militaries (in Central and East African nations, not the desert) do indeed see the use of helicopters, and heavily favour them over conventional aircraft. Same for favouring COIN aircraft over traditional fighter/attack models nowadays.
Even when it comes to light transports like old An-2/Y-5, there aren't really that many around down there.

Most "traditional" airforce structure (fighters, ground-attack jets, trainers with secondary light attack role, light transports) is left over from 70s Cold War structures, with some exceptions where actual air combat occured (Ethiopia/Eritrea). Most of these nations still operate what's left of the same Hawks, J-5, J-6, and MiG-21 that saw combat 30 years ago.

More recent "structures" in this area emphasize more heavily on light prop COIN and CAS and liaison/spotter aircraft (e.g. Bulldog 127, SF260P/W, Tucano, Cessna 150) for fixed-wing aviation. Rotary assets actually outweigh these, with an emphasis on both light/medium attack/assault helicopters (Mi-17, Mi-24, Hughes 500, Alouette III, Gazelle) and light/medium transport capability (various Bell models, Pumas).

Only a few richer African nations, mostly involved in peacekeeping, actually go with traditional fixed-wing transport still, and these usually operate light/medium "semi-modern" aircraft (DHC-5A, DHC-8, Y-12).

Similarly, African ground forces also modernize, usually moving towards light mine-resistant (and simply ugly) APCs, mostly South-African with a few European models mixed in. In fact, almost all newer acquisitions for armies seem to go in that direction, infantry-focused. No new tanks or recon vehicles, new APCs and crew-served weapons (recoilless rifles, ATGM, MANPADs) instead.
Money is presumably a factor in this as well, but it's interesting to see that African light forces move in the same direction as those of other nations worldwide.

 

[swerve]

Kato,

that could be a reaction to the style of army which has been successful in African wars. From the Tanzanian defeat of Uganda in 1979 onwards, victory in African wars have gone pretty consistently to the more mobile forces, which generally means lighter (NB: Ethiopia-Eritrea is a bit of a special case - nobody else has managed to mobilise the numbers for trench warfare).

Tanks need a big logistical train. Better several light vehicles carrying a significant number of infantry with mortars, RCL, maybe ATGW & manpads, than one tank. You can get more firepower to where it's needed that way.

Even men on foot with a few vehicles & STOL light transport aircraft/helicopters have proved able to beat heavier forces. Spend your limited money on training, good infantry weapons & transport, & run rings round small numbers of poorly-maintained old tanks.

 

[kato]

From the Tanzanian defeat of Uganda in 1979 onwards, victory in African wars have gone pretty consistently to the more mobile forces, which generally means lighter

Though that war itself proved that "classic" warfare is somewhat "possible" in Africa as well. I.e. mechanized warfare by tanks supported by strike aircraft, with fighter cover.

With some countries, it's pretty clear why they went the way they did - Rwanda and Uganda didn't have much use for tanks or heavy aircraft in the jungles of Eastern Congo. Uganda also has to deal internally with rebel groups, where tanks and such heavy stuff wouldn't be useful.

Kenya seems to be a powerhouse when it comes to their helo force and any naval matters really (both ship-wise and when it comes to coastal radar surveillance and such). Probably a result from open-terrain clashes with Somalia, and dealing with piracy in the area?

MANPADs (or any other SAMs) actually don't seem to be very wide-spread in the area actually. Tanzania has a single SAM bataillon (with Stingers?), and that's pretty much it for organized air-defense measures in the area, other than a few hundred light AA guns.

Interestingly, there's also a somewhat noticeable absence of artillery guns. I mean, yeah sure, a few dozen D30 and M114 and such. But not in the "big" numbers as you'd expect to support a dozen or so infantry brigades.

 

[Waylander]

Maybe the logistical burden for a proper use of artillery is too big, especially with a transportation system like in many african countries?

Artillery used in a classical role is an ammunition eater like no other.
And for a few salvos big tubes are sometimes a little bit overkill and maybe because of that many african nations tend to give their infantry some more mortars instead.

On the other hand the SADF showed during the Angola operations that a handfull of well maintained, trained and supported D-5s and D-6s can dominate a huge area and play a very important role.
Trying to get some modern SPHs from South Africa in small numbers but with good training and the ability to support them in the field can be a much better way of implementing artillery into an african army than bunches of old D30s.

 

[kato]

Don't know if it's interesting for other people, but i compiled a list of equipment currently used by East African Federation members (Tanzania, Kenya, Uganda, Rwanda, Burundi). Just as an overview.

Various sources, including Jane's.

Strength - currently 149,000

will vary; reasons:
- Uganda has recently begun introducing conscription/general military training
- Rwanda is sizing down their army from current 35,000 to target 25,000


Budget - overall 460.7 million (about 0.47% GDP)

the currently low budget of Tanzania (0.1% GDP) heavily influences this.


Overall Army Holdings

Summary:
200 tanks (50 LT + 150 MBT)
391 armoured infantry carriers (325 wheeled + 66 tracked)
242 reconnaissance vehicles (145 heavily-armed + 97 lightly-armed)
150 artillery systems (102 howitzers + 48 MLRS)

Detailed:

32x T-55 (MBT)
30x Type 59 (MBT)
10x Vickers Mk1 (MBT)
78x Vickers Mk3 (MBT)

20x PT-76 (light tank)
30x Type 62 (light tank)

102x AML (recon vehicle)
40x FV101 Scorpion (recon vehicle)
3x Saladin (recon vehicle)

70x BRDM-2 (armored car / recon)
16x VBL (armored car / recon)
15x Shorland S52 (armored car / recon)
12x Ferret Mk 1/1 (armored car / recon)

31x BMP-2 (tracked infantry combat vehicle)

30x YW531 Type 63 (tracked armoured personnel carrier)
5x Saracen (tracked armoured personnel carrier)

70x Casspir (wheeled armored personnel carrier)
66x BTR-152 (wheeled armored personnel carrier)
60x BTR-40 (wheeled armored personnel carrier)
52x Thyssen-Henschel UR-416M (wheeled armored personnel carrier)
31x Panhard M3 (wheeled armored personnel carrier)
18x Buffel (wheeled armored personnel carrier)
5x Walid (wheeled armored personnel carrier)
4x OT-64 (wheeled armored personnel carrier)
3x BTR-60 (wheeled armored personnel carrier)

82x M114 (towed howitzer)
20x D30 (towed howitzer)

48x BM-21 9K51 Grad (truck-mounted MLRS)

Crew-Served Weapons
overview only; only equipment i can trace; especially with recoilless rifles and SAMs there's bound to be more than that.

>100 SAMs (MANPADS, Tanzania)
>400 mortars (medium and heavy - 81mm+)
>500 heavy machine guns (12.7mm and 14.5mm)

~80 Carl Gustaf (Recoilless rifle)
~50 TCM-20 20mm (Anti-aircraft gun)
~45 ZU-23 (2A13) 23mm (Anti-aircraft gun)
~40 Milan (ATGM)
~20 9K11 Malutka/AT-3 Sagger (ATGM)
~15 Swingfire (ATGM)
~15 Bofors 40mm L/60 (Anti-aircraft gun)

Naval Holdings

Summary: 4 FACs, 7 PBs, 4 amphibious/logistics vessels

2x Nyayo FAC (4x Otomat SSM, 1x 76mm DP, 1x 30mm AA, 2x 20mm AA)
2x Huchuan FAC (2x 21-in TT, 2x twin 14.5mm MG)

2x Shupavu PB (1x 76mm DP, 1x 25mm AA)
2x Shanghai PB (2x dual 37mm AA, 2x dual 25mm AA)
2x Vosper 75ft PB (2x 20mm AA)
1x Mamba PB (1x dual 30mm AA)

2x Galana LCM (no armament fitted)
2x Yuch'in LCU (2x twin 14.5mm MG)

about 20 Police patrol craft (below 50 ft length)

9x Coastal Radar Station (along Kenyan coast)
1x 85mm mobile coastal gun battery (Tanzania; mentioned in Jane's)

Airforce Holdings

Summary:
52 fighter/attack/training aircraft
33 COIN/training aircraft
60 cargo/passenger/vip/liaison aircraft
93 attack/assault/utility helicopters

Detailed:

Fighters

18x MiG-21 & F-7A Skybolt
8x Shenyang F-6 (MiG-19)
8x Shenyang F-5 (MiG-17)
7x Northrop F-5E

Light Jet Aircraft (Attack/Training)

8x Hawk 50
3x L-39ZA

Light Prop Aircraft (COIN/Training)

12x EMB-312 Tucano
12x Bulldog 103/127
6x SF260W
2x SF260P
1x AS-202

Liaison Aircraft

10x Cessna 150
10x Piper PA-31
1x Dornier Do-27Q

Cargo Transport Aircraft

12x Harbin Y-12
11x DHC-5 Buffalo
6x Do-28D-2
3x DHC-8
1x Pilatus BN-2 Islander

VIP/Passenger Aircraft

1x King Air A100
1x Dassault Falcon 50
1x Gulfstream III
1x Gulfstream G550
1x Fokker 70
1x BAC 1-11

Helicopters

36x Hughes 500
21x SA-330/IAR-330
13x Bell 205/206/212/412
11x Mi-17
6x Mi-24V
3x Alouette III SA-316B
3x Gazelle SA-342L

 

[Izzy1]

And yes,

They can maintain every single one of them.

Kato, come on.

 

[kato]

And yes,

They can maintain every single one of them.

Kato, come on.

Well, with an official budget of 460 million...
(of course, as usual, "official" doesn't match reality - just Kenya alone spends more than those 460m, supposedly around 547m)

I doubt whether e.g. the tanks are in any good state - hell, i'd be surprised if Tanzania got just half of those Vickers rolling. The AMLs and M3 are probably falling apart by now too. I wouldn't trust those BTR-40/BTR-152 to still work either. The J-5, J-6 and Skybolts are what's left over from the 1979 war, and presumably about as combat-worthy as can be expected there.
The navy suffers from African standards - e.g. the Tanzanian Shupavu PBs originally had Gabriel II SSMs fitted, but those were removed as inoperational, and the boats are used for patrol only; similarly the Chinese ships among the naval forces are looking rather rusty, but are still considered operational (by Jane's).

The F-5E were at least all still flying in 2005. The Hughes 500 are from the mid-80s, and apparently also all quite operational, same for the Pumas.

The few Hinds are actually brand-new (Rwanda has another two on order), same for e.g. the Y-12 transport aircraft. Half of the navy is from the mid- to late 90s (1994-1998). Same goes for Rwanda's VBLs. Half of Uganda's BMP-2 were recently imported from Ukraine (in 2005).

The list sounds like a lot due to the variety. But really, it's not that big, especially when you consider that most of those APCs e.g. are simply armored trucks.
Ethiopia actually has a bigger army ToE (by numbers) than that.

 

[contedicavour]

Very good thread ! Although I'd just take the real current armament of African countries and propose how to improve it.
Air force : there isn't a single decent fighter between South Africa and the Maghreb countries... except the approx 10 Ethiopian SU27s
Navy : some repaired Nigerian frigates/FAcs and Kenyan FACs aside, nothing worth mentioning...
Tanks : some T55 or chinese Type59s ... wow...

With all the second hand material existing between the US, Europe and the former Warsaw Pact countries, I would expect more older F16 from ANGs, Hueys, older Leo1s and 2s and T72s, hundreds of BMP1s and BTR70/80s ...

In order to prevent rogue states from controlling these assets, it would be a good idea to park them with a African Union peacekeeping brigade, ideally based in stable countries such as South Africa.

cheers

 

[Pathfinder-X]

I would think an upgrade package similar to Chinese Type-59D or Pakistani Al-Zarar would be more realistic than the Israeli option for African T-55s. Given their relatively weak economy and much limited budget, the cheaper the better. It will still grant them considerable increase in capability, for minimum cost. I am not sure if African nations can handle the logistics of handling components from both NATO and Russsian standard.

AD had some good ideas regarding the restructuring of the army on the first page, but I cannot agree with him on purchasing M-16, SAW and M-240. African countries maintain a large stock of Soviet standard ammunition and used Russian and Chinese light arms almost exclusively, even as of now. As long as the existing small arms are working fine, no need to replace them. I have always been a fan of the "if something ain't broke, don't fix it" doctrine.

 

[kato]

Air force : there isn't a single decent fighter between South Africa and the Maghreb countries... except the approx 10 Ethiopian SU27s

Depends on what you call decent. There's about a dozen Mig-29 too (Eritrea, Sudan). Angola has Su-24 (a few apparently active again) and Su-27 (proven).
A bit less high-level: China has also sold a couple dozen newer J-7N versions to Namibia and Zimbabwe in the last few years. Plus the couple dozen F-5 Freedom Fighters that are still around (eg Botswana, Kenya).

Navy : some repaired Nigerian frigates/FAcs and Kenyan FACs aside, nothing worth mentioning...

There are about two dozen halfway decent patrol boats throughout the area. Mostly German-, French-, Chinese- or Indian-built.

Tanks : some T55 or chinese Type59s ... wow...

Angola and Ethiopia operate T-72 (maybe 100 total together). Uganda - by some rumours - got modernized T-72 from Belarus recently.

With all the second hand material existing between the US, Europe and the former Warsaw Pact countries, I would expect more older F16 from ANGs, Hueys, older Leo1s and 2s and T72s, hundreds of BMP1s and BTR70/80s ...

Hueys are completely outdated compared to what African nations already have. The BMP-1 and BTRs are getting there, slowly. To those who can pay. Angola operates a few dozen BMP-1 and BTR-60PB, for example. Some east-African nations as well.
Leo 1/2 or old F-16 - no chance for most of these nations due to German and US export restrictions (including resales). The Netherlands wanted to sell 54 Leopard 1-V to Botswana, but Germany prevented that.
However, this "classic" equipment isn't really that important in Africa. Rugged helos are better for movement.

 

[SuperSixOne]

Has anyone looked at the A-50/T-50 comming out of Korea? Could "Ebonia" afford those? Granted it's not the hottest ride on the block but it will certainly put up a solid fight. The Ching-Kuo from Taiwan could also be an option but I've heard questionable reports about range/reliability.

 

[contedicavour]

Thks Kato - very interesting.

According to me the ideal strength of a country like the "Ebonia" of this thread would be :

Air force :
> 20 C-130 of older series B/E/F/H
> 20 G-222 or older CASA for unprepared and short runways
> 50 AB-212 / AB-205 for fast troop transport
> 30 Hind MI-24 (used from ex Soviet countries) for attack helos
> if no American-built jets because of export restrictions, then I would buy Mirage F1s in storage in Libya and Spain, repair them at Dassault and bring them in service as fighter-bombers. Ideally find 50 of them.
> buy second hand SU27 with R73 and R77 (say 20 of them) for pure fighter role.
> for COIN role take 80 SF-260W (plenty in Libya by the way, they had 200+) and 40 second hand Alpha Jets and/or MB-339 (from France/Germany and Italy), good also for advanced trainer role.

Navy :
> buy used Type143 FACs from Germany as Tunisia did (up to 8 ideally). Take MM38 exocet out and put Teseo Mk2 or MM40.
> order 4 OPVH (ideally Italian Comandanti class) with 8 second hand AB212 helos capable of launching Marte Mk2 anti-shipping missile
> take second hand P166 or ATR42/72 (ideally 8) for long range patrol, especially if "Ebonia" has offshore oil rigs.

Army :
> a couple of armoured brigades with 120 used T-72s (if Germany hampers export of used Leos) and 120 BMP-1s.
> a couple of cavalry brigades with 6x6 or 8x8 APCs (500 Russian BTRs ?)
> a helo/airborne brigade using the C130/G222 and helos
> an artillery brigade with 50 second hand M109G/L and 12 Hawk PIP batteries supported by Stinger-equipped personnel
> a logistics/sapper brigade

cheers

 

[isthvan]

Air force :
-20 Y-8
-30 Mi-17v5 for troop transport
-24 Mi-24V(modernized if possible)
-30 FC-1 fighters
-24 K-8 as trainers/COIN

Navy :
- buy few used Tarantul II corvette and equip them with Kh-35
- 2-3 OPV similar to County class
-5-6 light SAR helicopters (AS 555 Fennec)

Army :
- 1 mech brigade equipped with T-72s and BMP-2
- 4 cavalry brigades equipped with BTR-80
- 6 light infantry brigades
- 1 air assault brigade
- artillery would be using 122mm D-30 howitzers and M-46 towed guns converted to 155mm

With competent training this would be enough for any African country

 

[kato]

> buy used Type143 FACs from Germany as Tunisia did (up to 8 ideally). Take MM38 exocet out and put Teseo Mk2 or MM40.

Problem there - none left

Well, not true really: Germany has 4 of them left - but those are being cannibalized for spare parts for Type 143A craft. With two Type 143A crashing earlier this year, and needing new hull parts and machinery, there won't be much left of those 4 in stocks either.

> order 4 OPVH (ideally Italian Comandanti class) with 8 second hand AB212 helos capable of launching Marte Mk2 anti-shipping missile
> take second hand P166 or ATR42/72 (ideally 8) for long range patrol, especially if "Ebonia" has offshore oil rigs.

I'd grab up 12-16 French P400 class OPV/PB. Not even used, but new maybe. Gabon already has two similar builds btw. They're almost perfect for Africa, especially with their auxiliary light logistics/cargo function, and rugged systems designed for the area.
Maybe configure a few for actual combat (remove aft 20mm gun, slap four Gabriel III or some such in place), but for EEZ patrol and other peacetime duties they're almost perfect despite the age of the design and their low displacement.

12 Hawk PIP batteries

... where do you get 12 used Hawk batteries from?

That's 72 launchers,total over 400 vehicles and 3000 tons material, about 4000 soldiers. France had massive problems moving a single reinforced Hawk battery to N'djamena in Chad in 1986.
Germany, in Cold War glory, operated 12 Hawk batteries (in 4 battalions), the Netherlands had 12 too.


The other stuff looks pretty good