The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates

[contedicavour]

but to be honest it would be nice to just have last 2 hulls
how are the horizon classes doing are they both still in sea trials

The Horizons first of class are nearing full operational status.
Doria already has her full complement of Italian Navy personnel and has already undergone the full cycle of sea trials. In October it will be officially handed over to the Navy by Fincantieri.
Duilio will be launched this October from Riva Trigoso shipyards with already 70% of final components installed. It will be handed over to the navy in October 2008.
The French Forbin had some problems (you can find the story in the archives of meretmarine.com) but it too is nearing handing over to the Navy.

cheers

 

[riksavage]

It will be interesting going forward to see video or stills of the Horizons and T45’s working together – comparative size and profile etc. The height of the Samson installation for one in the 45’s appears incredibly high and I would like to see how it compares to the Selex EMPAR multi-function radar mounted on the Horizon’s. Don’t want to get into ‘this vs. that’ argument, but as both vessels originated from what was a joint program it would be interesting to see how they visually compare.

One assumes the French must be planning to build more Horizons to provide area coverage for their carriers (six to eight), if not which class of vessel will provide DDG support?

 

[contedicavour]

It will be interesting going forward to see video or stills of the Horizons and T45’s working together – comparative size and profile etc. The height of the Samson installation for one in the 45’s appears incredibly high and I would like to see how it compares to the Selex EMPAR multi-function radar mounted on the Horizon’s. Don’t want to get into ‘this vs. that’ argument, but as both vessels originated from what was a joint program it would be interesting to see how they visually compare.

One assumes the French must be planning to build more Horizons to provide area coverage for their carriers (six to eight), if not which class of vessel will provide DDG support?

Horizons are too expensive at 800 million euros each, so no more will be built. An AAW version of the FREMMs will be built instead, around the end of the 2010s decade, with active EMPAR (at least for the Italian ships) but no long range 3D air search radar.

cheers

 

[harryriedl]

Horizons are too expensive at 800 million euros each, so no more will be built. An AAW version of the FREMMs will be built instead, around the end of the 2010s decade, with active EMPAR (at least for the Italian ships) but no long range 3D air search radar.

cheers

the french are taking even more of a risk than the UK in regards to AAW 2 horizons 5 major assets [CDG,PA2,Minstral,tonnuor,JDA] i know the FREMMs will be take most of the strain but seems the french are realing on second line ships for a role that should be done by a top line ship [they seem to be using the horizons in a manner more like the use of T82: Fleet escort an CnC] and waiting till 2010 before investing in AAW vessel in numbers seems to be a big risk. relying on FREMMs [herkleys much better than the previous desgin but no long range AAW] and 2 horizons

shame about the possible cuts in FREMMs procument

 

[contedicavour]

the french are taking even more of a risk than the UK in regards to AAW 2 horizons 5 major assets [CDG,PA2,Minstral,tonnuor,JDA] i know the FREMMs will be take most of the strain but seems the french are realing on second line ships for a role that should be done by a top line ship [they seem to be using the horizons in a manner more like the use of T82: Fleet escort an CnC] and waiting till 2010 before investing in AAW vessel in numbers seems to be a big risk. relying on FREMMs [herkleys much better than the previous desgin but no long range AAW] and 2 horizons

shame about the possible cuts in FREMMs procument

France (and to a certain degree Italy as well) are financing new carriers and LPDs by cutting the escort force. Well that's a bit what the RN is doing as well, even if larger funding allows for more DDGs.
There is one bit of good news though : at least the Italian FREMMs carry Sylver A50 launchers that are compatible with Aster-30. So FREMMs will be able to launch long range SAMs, even if in order to optimize their use we'll need a Doria (Horizon) or De la Penne (1992 DDG with long range radar but SM-1MR equipped) nearby.
Regarding FREMM for the moment what is irritating is also the delay in shipbuilding due to strikes at DCN shipyards (striking against merger with Thales).

cheers

 

[harryriedl]

France (and to a certain degree Italy as well) are financing new carriers and LPDs by cutting the escort force. Well that's a bit what the RN is doing as well, even if larger funding allows for more DDGs.
There is one bit of good news though : at least the Italian FREMMs carry Sylver A50 launchers that are compatible with Aster-30. So FREMMs will be able to launch long range SAMs, even if in order to optimize their use we'll need a Doria (Horizon) or De la Penne (1992 DDG with long range radar but SM-1MR equipped) nearby.
Regarding FREMM for the moment what is irritating is also the delay in shipbuilding due to strikes at DCN shipyards (striking against merger with Thales).

cheers

Italy i feel much more comfortable about because their FREMMs are better equipped and can take the roles of fleet defense and have less assets to escort italy i feel is well set up
it France im not sure about their FREMMs should have been able to take ASTER30 from launch of the 1st of class to take the load of the horizons and the crotale? ships of the French navy

 

[contedicavour]

Italy i feel much more comfortable about because their FREMMs are better equipped and can take the roles of fleet defense and have less assets to escort italy i feel is well set up
it France im not sure about their FREMMs should have been able to take ASTER30 from launch of the 1st of class to take the load of the horizons and the crotale? ships of the French navy

Right, the first ships (Aquitaine class) carry only Sylver A43 for Aster-15 only. Besides, Herakles has lower range and tracking capabilities than the active phased array version of EMPAR that is supposed to be ready on time for the 1st Italian FREMMs in 2012. I guess the French will rely on the De Gaulle and CVF embarked Rafale and Aster-15 for self defence.

By the way, in terms of number of key ships to protect France and Italy are in the same situation : 2 carriers and one LPD group each (De Gaulle, future CVF, and 2 Mistrals for France ___ Garibaldi, Cavour, 3 Santi LPDs and future larger LPD for Italy).

cheers

 

[harryriedl]

Right, the first ships (Aquitaine class) carry only Sylver A43 for Aster-15 only. Besides, Herakles has lower range and tracking capabilities than the active phased array version of EMPAR that is supposed to be ready on time for the 1st Italian FREMMs in 2012. I guess the French will rely on the De Gaulle and CVF embarked Rafale and Aster-15 for self defence.

By the way, in terms of number of key ships to protect France and Italy are in the same situation : 2 carriers and one LPD group each (De Gaulle, future CVF, and 2 Mistrals for France ___ Garibaldi, Cavour, 3 Santi LPDs and future larger LPD for Italy).

cheers

so are Foudre class gone?

yes i do agree apart from that Italy home is in the Med and is less distance from land based air. So i imagined that France would want more AAW
also the carriers for both countries one will be available and very rare both De Gaulle, future CVF will be ready to escorted [refits ect]. same situation with Garibaldi, Cavour.

apart from that i agree.
also could the Santi class ferry harriers?

 

[contedicavour]

so are Foudre class gone?

yes i do agree apart from that Italy home is in the Med and is less distance from land based air. So i imagined that France would want more AAW
also the carriers for both countries one will be available and very rare both De Gaulle, future CVF will be ready to escorted [refits ect]. same situation with Garibaldi, Cavour.

apart from that i agree.
also could the Santi class ferry harriers?

Oops you're right, 2 Foudre and 2 Mistral, sorry. Let's say 4 amphib ships for each country.
The Santi can ferry Harriers but can't provide maintenance because there's no hangar. In case of emergency the 133 meter long runway is enough to take off but with no weapons and limited fuel.
Anyway we now have 2 carriers for 18 Harriers... so I doubt we'll ever feel the need for Harriers aboard the Santis. May be the 4th LPD which will be at least as long as the Garibaldi will have a secondary support role for AV8B/F35.

cheers

 

[swerve]

Oops you're right, 2 Foudre and 2 Mistral, sorry. Let's say 4 amphib ships for each country.
...
cheers

Remember that France may buy another Mistral-class to replace Jeanne d'Arc.

 

[kato]

France is keeping Orage still officially in reserve btw, until she will be scrapped next year.

 

[harryriedl]

France is keeping Orage still officially in reserve btw, until she will be scrapped next year.

not going to Argentina then? because its sister was meant to be going to Argentina and i presumed Orange would be going to act as a source of spares

 

[WillS]

I've read the comments made in the Telegraph (via the link above), & watched some of the BBC coverage this morning. I have to say in my personal opinion that there are no apparent untruths in any of the comments made via either medium.

Really? OK, Harpoon I can believe as I was under the impression that it was a 'for but not with' capability and it would be reasonably easy to install.

Likewise the helicopters, although the article at least implies that carrying something other than a Lynx would be an initial capacity and not retrofitted somewhere down the line.

But Tomahawks? I thought current RN doctrine has them sitting in nuclear subs, not surface ships. And where would the Type 45 launch them from? The Slyver launcher fitted to the 45s would need to be the A70, which is deep enough to take Tomahawk, not the A50 that they were built with?

WillS

 

[swerve]

not going to Argentina then? because its sister was meant to be going to Argentina and i presumed Orange would be going to act as a source of spares

IIRC the deal fell through, & neither ship is going to Argentina.

 

[swerve]

...But Tomahawks? I thought current RN doctrine has them sitting in nuclear subs, not surface ships. And where would the Type 45 launch them from? The Slyver launcher fitted to the 45s would need to be the A70, which is deep enough to take Tomahawk, not the A50 that they were built with?

WillS

Exactly. And even Sylver A70 (not fitted to T45) is only potentially able to Launch Tomahawk. It's not been integrated, & may never be. At the moment, they'd need strike-length Mk 41 VLS, which is also not fitted.

 

[contedicavour]

not going to Argentina then? because its sister was meant to be going to Argentina and i presumed Orange would be going to act as a source of spares

Actually neither ship is going to Argentina after all. Stuffed with asbestos, their refit would have cost a fortune. So the ships are going to the same scrapyard where the old Clemenceau is.

cheers

 

[contedicavour]

Exactly. And even Sylver A70 (not fitted to T45) is only potentially able to Launch Tomahawk. It's not been integrated, & may never be. At the moment, they'd need strike-length Mk 41 VLS, which is also not fitted.

You can always install SCALP NAVAL, a good cruise missile the A70 was developed for. The RAF has Storm Shadow after all doesn't it ? The 2 cruise missiles belong to the same family of missiles.

cheers

 

[Systems Adict]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillS
...But Tomahawks? I thought current RN doctrine has them sitting in nuclear subs, not surface ships. And where would the Type 45 launch them from? The Slyver launcher fitted to the 45s would need to be the A70, which is deep enough to take Tomahawk, not the A50 that they were built with?

WillS

Exactly. And even Sylver A70 (not fitted to T45) is only potentially able to Launch Tomahawk. It's not been integrated, & may never be. At the moment, they'd need strike-length Mk 41 VLS, which is also not fitted.

Firstly gents, I don't wish to offend, or cause an argument, but can you please re-read my comments in post #900, as I edited them, to add an additional statement.

Secondly, at this moment, other than some very senior officials at the MoD & a few others within the RN, US DoD & possibly within the design areas of the equipment & hull manufacturers, I'm pretty sure there a only few people who could tell you exactly what they believe the operational ethos of the UK RN will be for the next 25 years. This plan will also be subject to change as people & govt officials update facts/statistics, move post, etc.
In addition, on Beedall's site, there is an in depth comment on his perspective as to whether T-LAM will be fitted.
From these comments it can be perceived that there is room below decks, or that the current arrangement can be replaced or modified at a later date to accommodate such an installation.
I therefore stand by my comments that there are "no apparent untruths". I will however bow to superior knowledge, when it becomes public domain information.....

I would appreciate your discussion points / thoughts...

Systems Adict

 

[swerve]

...Firstly gents, I don't wish to offend, or cause an argument, but can you please re-read my comments in post #900, as I edited them, to add an additional statement....

I would appreciate your discussion points / thoughts...

Systems Adict

You mean "....Having been away on "company business" for the last 29 days,(which is IDENTICAL in time length to how long Daring was @ sea.....) "? Nice cruise?

Well, I know nothing beyond what is in the public domain, & from that I infer that Type 45 currently lacks a VLS able to launch Tomahawk, or any other cruise missile, but has the space to fit either Sylver A70 or strike length Mk 41 in the future, should it be desired, & should funding permit. However, being able to fit something does not mean it will be fitted, which is what the Telegraph stated. I'm not aware of any public information which suggests that any decisions have been taken on whether the Type 45s will receive land attack weapons, & if so, what.

If there's anything you know & are able to discuss, do tell.

 

[Systems Adict]

Well, I know nothing beyond what is in the public domain, & from that I infer that Type 45 currently lacks a VLS able to launch Tomahawk, or any other cruise missile, but has the space to fit either Sylver A70 or strike length Mk 41 in the future, should it be desired, & should funding permit. However, being able to fit something does not mean it will be fitted, which is what the Telegraph stated. I'm not aware of any public information which suggests that any decisions have been taken on whether the Type 45s will receive land attack weapons, & if so, what.

I can add nothing to expand the statement you have made. It eloquently states my current level of knowledge on the subject....


Anyone wish to hypothesize further...?


Systems Adict