The Royal Navy Discussions and Updates
- Thread starter overlander
- Start date
What we did was AEW.
Sea King AEW went from an RN meeting to consider what to do, to flying hardware embarked on HMS Illustrious & sailing to the Falkands (too late for the war, but ready for a rematch if needed) in a week under 3 months.
Squeezed in RFPs to industry, their proposals, accepting one, them developing it, RN raising a squadron for it, first two converted, tested by the RN, modified as a result of testing, re-tested, & finally cleared for service the day Illustrious sailed.
I wonder if any of those involved slept?
contedicavour
New Member
Do we have data on range & n° of targets tracked by the AEW system aboard the RN Sea Kings ?
cheers
From naval technology.com:
The 13 Royal Navy airborne early warning AEW.2 helicopters are being upgraded to AEW.7 standard with the Thales Defence Searchwater 2000 radar and Cerberus mission system. The helicopters' designation has been changed to Airborne Surveillance and Area Control (ASaC Mk 7). The Searchwater 2000 radar processing system incorporates a new pulse Doppler mode and Link 16 JTIDS (Joint Tactical Information Distribution System) datalink. The upgrade programme also includes the installation of an additional HaveQuick II secure radio communications system together with an AN/APX-113(V) interrogator transponder from Hazeltine and a video recorder unit. The first two upgraded Sea Kings were delivered in May 2002 and the programme is scheduled for completion in 2005. ASaC Mk 7 helicopters were deployed for the first time onboard HMS Ark Royal as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom in March 2003. Two helicopters were lost in a mid-air collision during the conflict and it is expected that two RN Sea King HAS Mk 6 ASW helicopters will be upgraded to ASaC Mk 7configuration.
The 13 Royal Navy airborne early warning AEW.2 helicopters are being upgraded to AEW.7 standard with the Thales Defence Searchwater 2000 radar and Cerberus mission system. The helicopters' designation has been changed to Airborne Surveillance and Area Control (ASaC Mk 7). The Searchwater 2000 radar processing system incorporates a new pulse Doppler mode and Link 16 JTIDS (Joint Tactical Information Distribution System) datalink. The upgrade programme also includes the installation of an additional HaveQuick II secure radio communications system together with an AN/APX-113(V) interrogator transponder from Hazeltine and a video recorder unit. The first two upgraded Sea Kings were delivered in May 2002 and the programme is scheduled for completion in 2005. ASaC Mk 7 helicopters were deployed for the first time onboard HMS Ark Royal as part of Operation Iraqi Freedom in March 2003. Two helicopters were lost in a mid-air collision during the conflict and it is expected that two RN Sea King HAS Mk 6 ASW helicopters will be upgraded to ASaC Mk 7configuration.
contedicavour
New Member
Yep thanks, but even if you look under the internet for this Thales Searchwater radar you find just about everything including pictures of it... except for range and n° of targets it can track 
May be it's kept classified ?
cheers
May be it's kept classified ?
cheers
"detection range of 85km (look-down mode) or 110km (look-up mode)"
(Racal Skymaster, mid-90s export version of Racal Searchwater)
[source: Internet]
"TWS: >100 tracks"
(Thales Searchwater 2000MS, product for rotary maritime patrol applications, derived from Searchwater 2000AEW)
[source: Jane's]
I wouldn't expect much more range from the actual Thales Searchwater 2000AEW, as the criteria for the "2000" version were mostly reduction in space and weight, not increase of range.
contedicavour
New Member
Thks for the data. Tracking n° are good, but range is quite disappointing. I hope at least that the range is defined vs a small target such as an incoming cruise missile...
cheers
Above range is supposedly for 5 m² aerial targets. 230 km against ship-sized surface targets.
Remember, that's for Skymaster, the version exported to China. The same version can track 100 aerial and 32 sea surface targets simultaneously.
contedicavour
New Member
Hmm useful to provide tracking for our 180km+ Teseo Mk2A SSMs, especially against targets such as FAC(M)s hiding in a littoral configuration
cheers
hmm this seems to have been missed
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/just-an-ocean-away-gbp-30m-refit-for-navys-lph-03653/
Babcock Marine's Devonport Dockyard has received a GBP 30 million (about $59.5 million) for a major upgrade to the Royal Navy's Plymouth-based helicopter carrier HMS Ocean [LPH 01]. The work is part of the developing Surface Ship Support Alliance, a new contracting approach that was a pre-requisite to approval of the Royal Navy's new 65,000t CVF Queen Elizabeth Class carriers.
The 22,500t HMS Ocean is similar to some of the smaller LHD designs like the 21,300t French Mistral Class. Built to commercial standards, LPH01 carries a crew of 255, an aircrew of 206, and 480 Royal Marine Commandos; an additional 320 marines can be accommodated in a short-term emergency. The ship has capacity for 40 vehicles, but is not designed to land heavy tanks with its 4 Landing Craft Vehicle Personnel (LCVP) Mk 5s. Its main assets are up to 18 helicopters: usually 12 transport (EH101 Merlins, H-3 Sea Kings; H-47 Chinooks can only be refueled and serviced on deck) and 6 maritime/ scout/ attack (Lynx variants, and/or WAH-64D Apache). Secondary ship roles include training, a limited anti-submarine warfare role, humanitarian assistance, and acting as a base for anti-terrorist operations.
Events have forced the ship to remain at sea near more distant shores, however, and on longer voyages than originally anticipated Hence the priority on crew-related modifications. Not to mention some of the other changes…
SHIP LPH HMS Ocean
HMS Ocean
(click to view full)
The year-long refit of HMS Ocean will involve the fitting of new main propulsion shaft sections, extensive improvements in accommodation (including mess-deck dining areas in troop accommodation areas, storage for troop equipment, improvements to the galley and accompanying food storage areas), and an upgrade to the ship's aviation support facilities to improve support to the Army's WAH-64D Apache attack helicopters. Work is expected to start in September 2007 and, the ship is expected to return to service in September 2008 after a set of sea trials.
HMS Ocean participated Iraqi operations near Al-Faw in 2003, and her most recent assignment involved deployment to the Caribbean to counter drug smuggling (see video – at GBP 29 million, the value of seized drugs was about equal to the present refit costs), work with US Marine Corps' HMM-774 "Wild Geese"s and their CH-46E Sea Knight helicopters in a joint training deployment, and offer humanitarian assistance to hurricane victims.
In her absence, Britain's 20,000t escort carrier and fleet flagship HMS Ark Royal will take on HMS Ocean's role, embarking the helicopters and Royal Marines and serving as a less-optimized backup. MoD release.
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/just-an-ocean-away-gbp-30m-refit-for-navys-lph-03653/
Babcock Marine's Devonport Dockyard has received a GBP 30 million (about $59.5 million) for a major upgrade to the Royal Navy's Plymouth-based helicopter carrier HMS Ocean [LPH 01]. The work is part of the developing Surface Ship Support Alliance, a new contracting approach that was a pre-requisite to approval of the Royal Navy's new 65,000t CVF Queen Elizabeth Class carriers.
The 22,500t HMS Ocean is similar to some of the smaller LHD designs like the 21,300t French Mistral Class. Built to commercial standards, LPH01 carries a crew of 255, an aircrew of 206, and 480 Royal Marine Commandos; an additional 320 marines can be accommodated in a short-term emergency. The ship has capacity for 40 vehicles, but is not designed to land heavy tanks with its 4 Landing Craft Vehicle Personnel (LCVP) Mk 5s. Its main assets are up to 18 helicopters: usually 12 transport (EH101 Merlins, H-3 Sea Kings; H-47 Chinooks can only be refueled and serviced on deck) and 6 maritime/ scout/ attack (Lynx variants, and/or WAH-64D Apache). Secondary ship roles include training, a limited anti-submarine warfare role, humanitarian assistance, and acting as a base for anti-terrorist operations.
Events have forced the ship to remain at sea near more distant shores, however, and on longer voyages than originally anticipated Hence the priority on crew-related modifications. Not to mention some of the other changes…
SHIP LPH HMS Ocean
HMS Ocean
(click to view full)
The year-long refit of HMS Ocean will involve the fitting of new main propulsion shaft sections, extensive improvements in accommodation (including mess-deck dining areas in troop accommodation areas, storage for troop equipment, improvements to the galley and accompanying food storage areas), and an upgrade to the ship's aviation support facilities to improve support to the Army's WAH-64D Apache attack helicopters. Work is expected to start in September 2007 and, the ship is expected to return to service in September 2008 after a set of sea trials.
HMS Ocean participated Iraqi operations near Al-Faw in 2003, and her most recent assignment involved deployment to the Caribbean to counter drug smuggling (see video – at GBP 29 million, the value of seized drugs was about equal to the present refit costs), work with US Marine Corps' HMM-774 "Wild Geese"s and their CH-46E Sea Knight helicopters in a joint training deployment, and offer humanitarian assistance to hurricane victims.
In her absence, Britain's 20,000t escort carrier and fleet flagship HMS Ark Royal will take on HMS Ocean's role, embarking the helicopters and Royal Marines and serving as a less-optimized backup. MoD release.
contedicavour
New Member
Ocean is still almost new and already it goes back to shipyard ?? Are we sure this doesn't disguise repairs to some issue the ship has ?
cheers
cheers
She's 10 years old.
And slated for retirement from primary LPH duties in another 10 years (Ocean was only planned with a useful service life of 20-25 years).
See it as a MLU
Coming up to 10 years old. Refits at this age are common. She's been busy, not sitting in port having a quiet life. Things wear out. There's also the dockyard schedule to think about. Maybe Ocean could wait a while, but then would clash with other ships.
Indeed. I'd expect the schedule to be something like -She's 10 years old.
And slated for retirement from primary LPH duties in another 10 years (Ocean was only planned with a useful service life of 20-25 years).
See it as a MLU
2007
Ocean has major refit. Ark Royal does LPH duties
Illustrious has minor refit. Ark Royal does carrier duties.
Ark Royal has minor refit.
Queen Elizabeth enters service.
Illustrious retires.
Prince of Wales enters service.
Ark Royal retires.
New LPH enters service.
Ocean becomes secondary LPH.
2020
Super Nimrod
New Member
Agree with Swerve, that looks to be how it will work out.
Re the refit, I am disappointed that they haven't mentioned improvements to the engine/propulsion system, as there is still some disappointment at her low cruising speed in some RN quarters from what I have heard.
Apart from what little there is on Beedles website, has anyone heard anymore about planning for the next LPH ?
Re the refit, I am disappointed that they haven't mentioned improvements to the engine/propulsion system, as there is still some disappointment at her low cruising speed in some RN quarters from what I have heard.
Apart from what little there is on Beedles website, has anyone heard anymore about planning for the next LPH ?
it would be nice if they uprated the engines to perhaps push it to 20knots but its interesting the improvement to air facilities for WAH-64 [im guessing improving weapons handling areas and more stores weapons]
according to defense talk proplutions is going to be improved
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/navy/HMS_Ocean_In_Line_For_Major_Refit120013065.php
'The year-long refit of HMS Ocean will involve the fitting of new sections of main propulsion shafts, extensive improvements in accommodation, including the provision of mess-decks (dining areas) in troop accommodation areas, storage for troop equipment, improvements to the galley (kitchen) and increased food storage areas, and an upgrade to the ship's aviation support facilities to improve support to the Army's Apache attack helicopter.'
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/navy/HMS_Ocean_In_Line_For_Major_Refit120013065.php
'The year-long refit of HMS Ocean will involve the fitting of new sections of main propulsion shafts, extensive improvements in accommodation, including the provision of mess-decks (dining areas) in troop accommodation areas, storage for troop equipment, improvements to the galley (kitchen) and increased food storage areas, and an upgrade to the ship's aviation support facilities to improve support to the Army's Apache attack helicopter.'
To some this may seem a bit off topic, but I feel it has warranty being in this thread, so here goes.
Last week, while waiting on a colleague returning to his desk, I came across & read an article in a magazine that was lying on his desk, about defence analysis and strategy. It was discussing the shipbuilding industry in the UK & future programs for the RN. In particular it was examining the manpower levels needed by the industry to achieve the projected delivery timetables.
This got me thinking about how things are going to pan out over the next 10-15 years. Being on this side of the defence Industry, I feel that my position within the company I work for, as a person in his late 30's, that I could probably be kept employed working in one form or another, supporting these build programs until I retire !
That aside, it also got me thinking, some of the figures quoted , which basically stated that there are about 8,000 people directly employed in the construction of these vessels, from this I deduced that for every DIRECT job, there are at least 5 INDIRECT jobs,this means that about another 40,000 people are involved !).
It then went onto a projected time table of events, cross referenced to the expected amount of manpower required. The conclusion was that over the next 5 years this original figure of 8,000 should hopefully just about double, to a heady total of about 15,000.
Here's the problem (as I see it). The UK, like most of Europe is suffering from an engineering black hole. The working population is getting older, there are fewer people being born in Europe, (which has pretty much been the case since 1970, up until 2005, when figures started a on small rise).
These facts & the outsourcing of heavy industry to the far east, mixed with mergers, closures & the general "dislike" of the younger generation of any form of engineering that involves getting their hands dirty, means that the situation is only getting worse, as there are FEWER engineers.
Add to all this the up & coming 2012 Olympics, which will be a financial draw to all those with construction skills, along with the infrastructure updates that are happening all across the UK, in the form of building new schools / hospitals, etc.
Have we as a nation shot ourselves in the foot by leaving this build program too late?
Or do you think that we'll pull out that "Dunkirk Spirit" & soldier on, with our usual Britishness?
Your thoughts please
Systems Adict
Last week, while waiting on a colleague returning to his desk, I came across & read an article in a magazine that was lying on his desk, about defence analysis and strategy. It was discussing the shipbuilding industry in the UK & future programs for the RN. In particular it was examining the manpower levels needed by the industry to achieve the projected delivery timetables.
This got me thinking about how things are going to pan out over the next 10-15 years. Being on this side of the defence Industry, I feel that my position within the company I work for, as a person in his late 30's, that I could probably be kept employed working in one form or another, supporting these build programs until I retire !
That aside, it also got me thinking, some of the figures quoted , which basically stated that there are about 8,000 people directly employed in the construction of these vessels, from this I deduced that for every DIRECT job, there are at least 5 INDIRECT jobs,this means that about another 40,000 people are involved !).
It then went onto a projected time table of events, cross referenced to the expected amount of manpower required. The conclusion was that over the next 5 years this original figure of 8,000 should hopefully just about double, to a heady total of about 15,000.
Here's the problem (as I see it). The UK, like most of Europe is suffering from an engineering black hole. The working population is getting older, there are fewer people being born in Europe, (which has pretty much been the case since 1970, up until 2005, when figures started a on small rise).
These facts & the outsourcing of heavy industry to the far east, mixed with mergers, closures & the general "dislike" of the younger generation of any form of engineering that involves getting their hands dirty, means that the situation is only getting worse, as there are FEWER engineers.
Add to all this the up & coming 2012 Olympics, which will be a financial draw to all those with construction skills, along with the infrastructure updates that are happening all across the UK, in the form of building new schools / hospitals, etc.
Have we as a nation shot ourselves in the foot by leaving this build program too late?
Or do you think that we'll pull out that "Dunkirk Spirit" & soldier on, with our usual Britishness?
Your thoughts please
Systems Adict
Sorry to say, I haven't a clue what it's name was. :hitwall
I know that it's a subscription magazine, that's used to help give some insight into other things that are happening in the 4 walls outside our factory & that my employer pays an annual subscription for it.
I believe it's a UK publication, & that it appears at least every quarter. It had other topics covering things like the RIAT & other defence related discussion topics. Unfortunately, I'd only got a quick squint thru it. I went back to ask for a 2nd look & found he'd sent it onto the next name on the dist list. I know that he gets 3 or 4 "magazines" like this every month, including things like the Navy news.
Sorry I can't help further, it was just an opportunity that arose, as I'm not very often in my colleagues department.
Systems Adict
I know that it's a subscription magazine, that's used to help give some insight into other things that are happening in the 4 walls outside our factory & that my employer pays an annual subscription for it.
I believe it's a UK publication, & that it appears at least every quarter. It had other topics covering things like the RIAT & other defence related discussion topics. Unfortunately, I'd only got a quick squint thru it. I went back to ask for a 2nd look & found he'd sent it onto the next name on the dist list. I know that he gets 3 or 4 "magazines" like this every month, including things like the Navy news.
Sorry I can't help further, it was just an opportunity that arose, as I'm not very often in my colleagues department.
Systems Adict