Future Conflicts

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
What about Russian claims for the North Pole? I´ve just read that they put their flag on the bottom of the sea. Apparently it is very rich in oil and natural gas. Could it be reason for disputes between Russia and Canada?
Conuntries can no longer obtain control over territory simply by planting a flag and claiming it. The flag planting was a symbolic move to reinforce a long standing Russian claim to the area. The flag planting itself has no legal standing in international law according to the reports I have read. Here is a link to one of them, published in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/w...em&ex=1186200000&en=e6c50f9c753e863d&ei=5087


Cheers
 

Chrom

New Member
Conuntries can no longer obtain control over territory simply by planting a flag and claiming it. The flag planting was a symbolic move to reinforce a long standing Russian claim to the area. The flag planting itself has no legal standing in international law according to the reports I have read. Here is a link to one of them, published in the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/02/w...em&ex=1186200000&en=e6c50f9c753e863d&ei=5087
Of course, a flag deep in the ocean have no more meaning than a planted flag high on the Moon or the Mars. Or, a north pole for the matter. But planting a flag was merery for entertaning pupose. The main objective was doing the analisys of deep ocean bottom and prove it is a part of russian continental shelf. Of course, USA politicans in they best tradition trying to misrepresent and conseal this objective, talking mostly about meaningless flags and plates.
The main problem for USA currently is what they do not participate in relevant Agreement about such causes. Long time ago USA decided it is not in they interest. And now they have little power to influence the possible decision of relevant commision. Thefore , in the last month, very stong trend emerged between american politicans to participate in this Agreement. They need full membership to influnce decisions.
Of course, all adjacment countries will take its own share in North Pole resources. The question hower is HOW BIG share.
 

eaf-f16

New Member
I think we should start more discussion on the 'water-wars' as they are being called. Who would have something to gain in Africa by taking advantage of the Nile, who would fight who? Who would win, and who would pick a side, and who would watch from the sidelines?

No doubt water is vital for everyone, and can be manipulated like anything else, this blue gold could see conflicts fought for it, as real gold was fought over years ago.
I think Egypt just wants hegemonic control over the Nile, which is unrealistic. I don't know much about this but I think so far Egypt has achieved that. I think every one of those disgruntled nations would just try find a partner and try to get some control over the Nile. From what I can see, looking at the militaries involved, that Egypt would still maintain control over the Nile but will be forced by all the international outcry to come to some kind of agreement with the other nations. But again I don't know much about this.

Can anybody tell me more about the dam Ethiopia wanted to build?
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
Can anybody tell me more about the dam Ethiopia wanted to build?
As for the old cooperative project with Israel, it didn't go far according to this essay i found on the issue:

Within 24 hours of the arrival of Israeli Hydrologists in Ethiopia in 1989 to examine the proposed site of building dams on the Blue Nile the Ethiopian ambassador was called to the Foreign Office in Cairo. He was left in no doubt about Egypt's stern response while moving special forces near Ethiopia was reported in the press.
There are actually several such projects still going on. Some of which are completed or nearing completion on tribuatory rivers to the Blue Nile. All of them are primarily for electricity production (for the bigger projects usually between 150 and 500 MW), with a secondary, also important, role to provide water for residential and agricultural use.

These are cooperative projects with international powers, with primarily Italy and China investing heavily nowadays. Ethiopia actually tries to become a major power exporter in East Africa as well, with plans to build power links and provide cheap hydroelectric power to e.g. Southern Sudan and Djibouti.

Uganda also authorized a 300 MW dam project on the Blue Nile itself a few months ago, btw, and Sudan is currently building a 1250 MW dam near Khartoum.
 

ejaz007

New Member
Gentlemen how about Afghanistan Pakistan conflict? The relations are not at there best. With allied & US forces in Afghanistan it would be an interesting scenario? What would be the Allied and US strategy?
 

Chrom

New Member
Gentlemen how about Afghanistan Pakistan conflict? The relations are not at there best. With allied & US forces in Afghanistan it would be an interesting scenario? What would be the Allied and US strategy?
What you mean? Pakistan would attack Afganistan? But Afganistan doesnt exist as entity, only as territory.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
But Afganistan doesnt exist as entity, only as territory.
I think you missed some related important stuff between, oh, 2001 and now.
Sorry, but the Islamic Republic of Afghanistan - despite its "interim government" - is a full, internationally recognized, legal nation - just like the military dictatorship south of the border.
 
The two leaders were holding hands and seems buddy, buddy on sunday in Afghanistan at a peace summit(jirga) which was a lot different from the last time there were together. IIRC, they wouldn't shake hands for a photo op at the White House. If a conflict were to arise, it would be a one sided affair
 

f-22fan12

New Member
Afganistan's army is fully dedicated to mainting internal order. Anyways, it could NEVER stand a chance against the Pakistani army.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Gents, are we not missing the point here?

What about the Talliban against the Pakistani Army? Could the Afghan conflict spill its borders?
 

f-22fan12

New Member
That could very well happen. In fact Pakistan DOES have alot of militancy in the country nowdays. The President almost declared a state of emergency recently. I think that it has already started and is just increasing.

BTW, these flag smiles are really great. :usa
 
Gents, are we not missing the point here?

What about the Talliban against the Pakistani Army? Could the Afghan conflict spill its borders?
In some ways , it has already spilled over the border into Pakistan. They are reports of daily clashes with miltiants that are sympathetic to the Taliban with Pakistani troops in the tribal areas. In the past when ever there is conflict in Afghanistan, it has directly affected Pakistan which hosted over 6 million Afghans refugees during and after the Soviet invasion.
 

drandul

Member
China- Japan

Sorry for late post. -One Chinese guy I personally talk with, told me that currently main Idea of Chinese military buildup is planned war with Japan. I was really shocked. - He was very serous on that. No point for China to get involved in conflict with Taiwan - game don't worth it. And if you ask any Chinese- about possibility of war with Japan - most often answer- it's possible. I'd like to know opinion of any buddies from China here on that forum - is that true? I would be totally unhappy to stay right between Japan and China in that war.
 
Sorry for late post. -One Chinese guy I personally talk with, told me that currently main Idea of Chinese military buildup is planned war with Japan. I was really shocked. - He was very serous on that. No point for China to get involved in conflict with Taiwan - game don't worth it. And if you ask any Chinese- about possibility of war with Japan - most often answer- it's possible. I'd like to know opinion of any buddies from China here on that forum - is that true? I would be totally unhappy to stay right between Japan and China in that war.
What would be the trigger for this war? South China Sea dispute? Anti-Japanese sentiments are prevalent in China due to Japan's wartime atrocities committed against the Chinese and what they see as Japan's failure to acknowledge it. However i don't see it esclating into a war. The South China Sea dispute is a different story since it is believe to have a significant amount of oil and gas. IIRC, Its also the second most used sea lanes in the world.
 
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drandul

Member
Trigger for war is actually secondary factor. Major Factor is willing of some nation to be involved in conflict and feeling of some other nation as enemy. Because without internal support of public opinion any military company is doomed to collapse. Even technology level not so important. - We can see it on middle east. What China is needed right now- is time. Probably one more generation - about 18 years needed to step up on totally new level in terms of technology -industry- education. It seems that US is already feeling some economical dependence on China. I mean huge reserve of dollars in china and major involvement of US corporations in production and research companies in China. Not only in light industry or consumer electronics sector but also in heavy industry and high tech equipment sectors.
All of them could be easily nationalized in case of major conflict and possible dollar flood on market will drop US purchasing capacity. This mean really big loss of effective money for US economy and resource prices will fly up. In such condition US economy will have limited abilities to support it's blue ocean fleet or any remote military operations. Could you imagine if average US citizen can buy only 50 gal of fuel per month for it's car, loose credit ability to pay for accommodation and low salary in military sector cause big flow-out of trained personnel from army. Currently funding of comparably limited company in Iraq having some problems. I'm not sure how much support will get military company with China in case of deterioration of life quality in US.
So currently US needed to reduce dependence of it's economy on China and consolidate it's efforts in East Asia region to get more support and cooperation if it wants to control that region.
 
This is worth watching as the race is on for energy in the Arctic.



A U.S. Coast Guard icebreaker is headed to the Arctic to map the sea floor off Alaska, as Russia, Denmark and Canada assert their claims in the polar region, which has potential oil and gas reserves.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070810/ap_on_sc/arctic_claims

Canada's prime minister announced plans Friday for an army training center and a deepwater port on the third day of an Arctic trip meant to assert sovereignty over a region
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=380&sid=1215544


Denmark is joining the scramble for the Arctic with the launch of a scientific mission to try to prove its ownership of the North Pole.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/08/12/wpole112.xml


Russian explorers have dived deep below the North Pole in a submersible and planted their national flag on the seabed to stake a symbolic claim to the energy riches of the Arctic
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/08/02/arctic.sub.reut/index.html
 
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ever4244

New Member
Sorry for late post. -One Chinese guy I personally talk with, told me that currently main Idea of Chinese military buildup is planned war with Japan. I was really shocked. - He was very serous on that. No point for China to get involved in conflict with Taiwan - game don't worth it. And if you ask any Chinese- about possibility of war with Japan - most often answer- it's possible. I'd like to know opinion of any buddies from China here on that forum - is that true? I would be totally unhappy to stay right between Japan and China in that war.
Well,It s a complicated psychological problem rather than a political or military one . the chinese national feeling towards japan is abysmal and feudal, for latter s unspeakable brutism in WW2 , numerous agression and inequal treaty before that ,and this feeling has been deteriorate further for japan s unwillingness to apologize .

Looking back to histroy , over 2000 years , China seed the flower of civilization in japan and make uncensored help to see it blossom . Therefore from calligraphy to painting ,from raiment to architecture, japan has become a preservation of ancient art and culture long been forgotten in China. Infact the interconnection and culture identification should have been very kin if the horror didnot occur .

Just imagine , if a stranger maraud your house ,burn your estate you may hate him but after the necessary judicial process the thing is over.
But if a boy whom you brought back from street out of pity ,whom you brougnt up with your own hands and gave asylum under your very roof , one day turn against you ,burn your house , kill your family, you may not just hate him but want to kill him yourself one day for revenge .

even though the recent 200 years japan and China are zero-sum enemy, the tie between Japan and China last longer than most counties history, lots more tangle than the parable above and lots more firm than both side imagined ,however ungratefulness and unregretfulness made up two main obstacle to release the knot and forgive the pass.
------Chinese think they will be considered weak if they forgive before japanese apologize , and japanese think if they apologized , they will give other country a longterm excuse (like Poland frequently use WW2 as a un-retortable stick on Germany) .and this deadlock cannot be untie until a dramatically change on the power balance of the 2 country.

From the currently political situation ,Japan is the US s jailor at the door of Pacific ,a most important vertex of first island chain intended to block China within Chinasea . Therefore rationally , the sino-japan relation has been much rely on the sino-america ralation which is the key axis of any other bilateral sino- ralationship .Exclude historical inconsistency , the only outstanding conflict lie on the fact that japan is a loyal and bitter stick of US over China .
and before the final sino-US duel come-------maybe it will never come , sino-japan ralationship will stay in the current situation ------stinking but profitable ,unless japan decide to jump the party .

any war between Japan and China will not be a regional war, it has too many interconnection with the the world , and any political leader rational enough will foresee that a war of such kind can only be the prelude of a world war.

BTW; the dispute of sovereignty over the east chinasea region is just a minor presentation of inner inconsistence of the 2 nation ,which any form of compromise and negotiation will be seen as quislism due to their consistent effort on propaganda of nationalism (China use the direct way and japan use the subtle way) .However, while heat brawl are sometime required to pacify the nationalism within , both country are fully awared of the resultant affection without ,so a major warfare cannot be expected within 10 years ,for US are t ready and China didn even start to prepare a world war,Japan jamed between will not provoke such war if he know his place .


Personally as a native chinese I borne no special hatred or like to Japaness as a whole nation,however, sometimes i feel some japanese are very ungraceful and craven to try to elude their guilt rather than to acknowledge it and make a proper amendment.Meanwhile I m deeply impressive with some japanness who has courage to stand up staight and speak out the truth under intimidation and jeer.

I don t know which wing I belong but my thoughts are not along in China, so you know there is lots of chinese dont acknowledge Japan as inherented foe.
 
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Grand Danois

Entertainer
The situation wrt "the Scramble for the Arctic" is that all nations that can make claims are signatories to (and have ratified, iirc) the Law of the Seas. The exception is the US, which has not. The Law of the Seas sets up rules and framework on how claims are made - geology is most important - and will later be sorted out in an UN committee. Disagreements will go to the court in Hague. Pretty straightforward.
 
The situation wrt "the Scramble for the Arctic" is that all nations that can make claims are signatories to (and have ratified, iirc) the Law of the Seas. The exception is the US, which has not. The Law of the Seas sets up rules and framework on how claims are made - geology is most important - and will later be sorted out in an UN committee. Disagreements will go to the court in Hague. Pretty straightforward.
I think you are seeing this sudden rush to map Arctic because all of the parties involve want to provide evidence of their claim to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. The U.S. Senate has not yet ratified U.S. accession to the Law of the Sea but the Bush adminstration will push hard get it ratified in order to get a seat on the panel that will consider and rule on the Russian claim some time around 2009 when they submit their claim.
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
I think you are seeing this sudden rush to map Arctic because all of the parties involve wants to provide evidence of their claim to the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea. The U.S. Senate has not yet ratified U.S. accession to the Law of the Sea but the Bush adminstration will push hard get it ratified in order to get a seat on the panel that will consider and rule on the Russian claim some time around 2009 when they submit their claim.
Yes, exactly. The Danes and Canadians are working together and sharing data on the science for the their respective claims. They have done so for a couple of years (I think). Some of the Danish-Norwegian delineation was settled last year. The mentioned Danish-Swedish(-Canadian) expedition will actually be assisted by a Russian nuclear ice breaker: LOMROG 2007 (in Danish).

Much of what is happening now has been planned for years. Not much potential for conflict. ;)

I suspect the canadian military presence is linked to domestic politics and to assert against the US (NW Passage).
 
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