The Arjun Tank

[BlahBlahBlah1]

Could you please clarify to me why weight doesn`t have any determination of a MBT`s armor protection level, please keep in mind that a M1A2 SEP comes in at a hefty 70 ton fully combat loaded.

BTW

FV214 Conqueror=66tons
Panzerjäger Tiger Ausf. B JagdTiger=71.7tons
A39=78tons
T-28=95tons

Guess what, all of their armor can be easily penetrated with a T-90

 

[eckherl]

Tiger I tank=57ton
T-90=46.5ton

Now, are you telling me that Tiger is better protected than the T-90?

What matters is the material the armor is made out of.

Abrams has a four man crew. Adding an extra man behind the breech just about doubled the length of the turret. That is gonna add a lot of weight, but will not increase the protection.

You are talking about different metal properties for armor protection.

A initial M1 started out with a weight class of 60 tons fully combat loaded, the M1A1 upgrade sent it to a weight class of 63 tons fully combat loaded, so what constitutes a 7 ton increase in combat weight.

 

[kams]

Well, this isn't India...my advice is that write your comments with universal terms that everyone since this forum also have people other than Indians.

Sorrydidn't see your question earlier, that was the term used by the agency (DRDO) which developed the round for Arjun. I was talking about the performance of Arjun's gun/FSAPDS, not Leo/chally/ and APFSDS.

Eckherl,

While there is no opposition to DU rounds in India by enviornmentalists (yet), no information has been made public regarding development program of a DU round.

 

[eckherl]

This argument that heavier modern tanks are at a disadvantage over lighter modern tanks hold no truth what so ever, a Arjun will perform just as good as a T-90 will on the battle field. Fire control systems slaved off to good stabilization with good sound suspensions are just as important especially when going cross country. Given the gun travel on traditional T series tanks I would give it to the Arjun as a better cross country performer.

 

[eckherl]

Sorrydidn't see your question earlier, that was the term used by the agency (DRDO) which developed the round for Arjun. I was talking about the performance of Arjun's gun/FSAPDS, not Leo/chally/ and APFSDS.

Eckherl,

While there is no opposition to DU rounds in India by enviornmentalists (yet), no information has been made public regarding development program of a DU round.

Do you know which primary armor defeating tank round is used for India`s T-90S. I know that India manufactures their own, but is it feasable to say that maybe Russia has sold some of their top of the line armor defeating DU rounds.

 

[BlahBlahBlah1]

This argument that heavier modern tanks are at a disadvantage over lighter modern tanks

...god damn it, there are two of them now...

My statements were that heavier tanks doesn't mean they are better protected than lighter tanks...DON'T EVER MISQUOTE ME!!!

Arjun will perform just as good as a T-90 will on the battle field. Fire control systems slaved off to good stabilization with good sound suspensions are just as important especially when going cross country. Given the gun travel on traditional T series tanks I would give it to the Arjun as a better cross country performer.

That Hydropneumatic suspension is more trouble than it is worth...it's a tank, not a luxury car. Comfortable ride for the crew doesn't mean better cross country capability for the tank.

 

[BlahBlahBlah1]

You are talking about different metal properties for armor protection.

A initial M1 started out with a weight class of 60 tons fully combat loaded, the M1A1 upgrade sent it to a weight class of 63 tons fully combat loaded, so what constitutes a 7 ton increase in combat weight.

By your logic, the T-28, which weighs at 95tons is better protected than either tank you mentioned above.

 

[kams]

Do you know which primary armor defeating tank round is used for India`s T-90S. I know that India manufactures their own, but is it feasable to say that maybe Russia has sold some of their top of the line armor defeating DU rounds.

I have to search my harddrive for some old news reports, but AFAIK, that information has never been made public. Interestingly, I recall reading a British MoD report on DU enviornmental hazard mentioning that both India and Israel either have or developing DU rounds. This was in late nintys. Will dig up that info too. (have to wait till tomorrow).

As to performance of Arjuns suspension, there is a video showing Arjuns high speed run over an offset course and crosscountry. I think video also shows the Gun stabilizer enabled in the cross country (no live firing though ). Will try to dig it up though.

Thats lot of digging to do.

 

[eckherl]

...god damn it, there are two of them now...

My statements were that heavier tanks doesn't mean they are better protected than lighter tanks...DON'T EVER MISQUOTE ME!!!



That Hydropneumatic suspension is more trouble than it is worth...it's a tank, not a luxury car. Comfortable ride for the crew doesn't mean better cross country capability for the tank.

Do not ever talk a hostile approach towards me again, if you cannot enter a debate in a civilized fashion then do not even make an attempt to respond to my comments and I will give you the same courtesy.

If you think that heavier vehicles do not offer any amount of protection advantages then explain why.

 

[eckherl]

By your logic, the T-28, which weighs at 95tons is better protected than either tank you mentioned above.

Again you are comparing ancient designs and metal properties, I think the quality and process has come along ways since the 1930s.

 

[kizilsungur]

Arjun Original
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN.bmp/ARJUN-full.jpg

and my concepts....

Arjun 2 (for Forest Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition.bmp/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 3 (for Desert Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition.jpg/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 4 (for General Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition.jpg/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 5 MM (for Urban Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl.jpg/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl-full.jpg

Thanks

 

[eckherl]

Arjun Original
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN.bmp/ARJUN-full.jpg

and my concepts....

Arjun 2 (for Forest Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition.bmp/ARJUN2KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 3 (for Desert Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition.jpg/Arjun3KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 4 (for General Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition.jpg/ARJUN4KzlsungurEdition-full.jpg
Arjun 5 MM (for Urban Combats)
http://kizilsungur.googlepages.com/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl.jpg/ARJUN_5_MM_Meskn_Mahl-full.jpg

Thanks

Why the wedge shape armor referenced on the urbanized print.

 

[kizilsungur]

Why the wedge shape armor referenced on the urbanized print.

For RPG-7 rockets my buddy.

 

[eckherl]

For RPG-7 rockets my buddy.

Do you think that a RPG-7 will penetrate the 60 degree frontal arc on a modern MBT.

 

[BlahBlahBlah1]

Do not ever talk a hostile approach towards me again, if you cannot enter a debate in a civilized fashion then do not even make an attempt to respond to my comments and I will give you the same courtesy.

Didn't mean to be hostile...but stop misquoting me, I'm dead serious

 

[BlahBlahBlah1]

Again you are comparing ancient designs and metal properties, I think the quality and process has come along ways since the 1930s.

Exactly, you admitted yourself...weight doesn't matter, it's the "quality" that matters.

 

[Waylander]

Crew comfort defenitely enhances battlefield performance.
Everybody who had to ride for hours and hours in any sort of combat vehicle will say that to you.
And a soft ride also enhances your ability for fire on the move.

BTW, DM53/63 is said to have, at least partially, solved the problem of tungstens rounds tending to mushroom.

 

[eckherl]

Crew comfort defenitely enhances battlefield performance.
Everybody who had to ride for hours and hours in any sort of combat vehicle will say that to you.
And a soft ride also enhances your ability for fire on the move.

BTW, DM53/63 is said to have, at least partially, solved the problem of tungstens rounds tending to mushroom.

Yep - a good suspension set up offers you better shoot on the move capabilities and faster movement through terrian.

 

[eckherl]

Exactly, you admitted yourself...weight doesn't matter, it's the "quality" that matters.

No - you have two different concepts for armor protection:

Russian approach - cast armor, small amounts of laminated armor and ERA panels.

Western approach - large amounts of composite laminated armor.

Which offers the better protection, I`ll take the 70 ton M1A2 SEP over the Russian 47 ton T-90.

 

[kams]

Here is the link to Arjun video. Gives a good look at the suspension. The reporter at the end of the video is Col Ajai Shukla (retd) of Poona Horse (Cavalary), IA. He was one of the harshest critic of Arjun.

Video