South Korean Navy

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
I hope we never have to fight them again but since the last time we did we ended up fighting the Chinese and the fact that the Chinese already are bristling at Taiwan I don't think we'd better take chances.
The Chinese would never back North Korea with military force today. The leaders of the 1950s were paranoid and insecure. As daft as Chinese politicians can be sometimes, they're not as freaked out by the US as their predecessors were.
 

10ringr

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Chinese would never back North Korea with military force today. The leaders of the 1950s were paranoid and insecure. As daft as Chinese politicians can be sometimes, they're not as freaked out by the US as their predecessors were.
Really? Why the constant going back and forth over Taiwan. Because China duzn't mind having the US in their back yard. Paranoid is precisely the characterization of China and N. Korea I'd use. China because they've been carved up by europeans and Japan and bristle with antagonism towards those events even today. They still are waiting for a formal apology from Japan for there terrible deeds in WWII. I heard a diplomat describe China in this way and I'll share it with you. China is like a new teenager, strong and fast and yet taking everything as a personal issue like and insecure child, they are dangerous and we need to be on our toes with them. Hutch
 

swerve

Super Moderator
... If I'm reading you right then your point is there is so much economic interdependency that conflict has been ruled out and time has made it no longer potentially explosive and I think this is where our opinions differ.
Not quite. What I was responding to was this -

10ringr said:
There is that little issue of the last time the North got into it with the South they had Chinese running across the Ya-Loo river in support of the North. Obviously whatever the case they are no match by themselves but then they're not by themselves. Perhaps they are looking at things a bit more globally.
The differences between now & then include but are not limited to -

1) South Korea now has well-trained forces with overwhelming superiority in airpower over the north, & huge superiority in quality of equipment for ground troops (except for artillery tubes), & dominance of the sea, even without any foreign help. There will be no walking over an outnumbered, outgunned, poorly trained Southern army by vastly more powerful Northern forces.

2) The North has no friends. The South may not be by itself, but the North is. China props it up largely because a collapsing N. Korea would be unpredictable & potentially dangerous. This leads to -

3) the North will not have a huge fleet of Russian aircraft to protect its airspace, nor any Chinese airbases to operate from. Russia just isn't interested, & China finds it an embarassment. In the event of S. Korean & US forces advancing on the Yalu river, I think the Chinese are more likely to quietly ask that the Americans stop well short & leave it up to the Koreans to occupy up to the border, than they are to invade, or loudly announce that they're occupying border areas to restore order, feed refugees, etc., & would like to open discussions with S. Korea over how to run the occupied areas in co-operation, & where to draw the boundaries of the temporary (pending a settlement of the status of N. Korea) occupation zone, while openly marching into border towns. China won't spill any Chinese blood for Kim Jong-Il, or start a war with either S. Korea or the USA. It might spill Chinese blood to finish off the mad dog & put itself in a position to influence the shape of the final settlement.

3) The North will have no resupply. It fights with what it has. It's broke (in 1950 it started out richer than the South) & nobody is going to give it war supplies. That means it runs out of fuel almost immediately. The South has secure resupply and the means to pay for it. The South now has at least ten times the GDP of the North.

The North is doing to the South what has been described as "holding it at grenade point". Attacking would be suicidal, but is a threat because it would cause immense damage to the South (that huge artillery force would do a lot of damage to Seoul before running out of shells, or being plinked by PGMs) before failing. An internal collapse of N. Korea would be very undesirable for its neighbours: millions of starving refugees fleeing across the borders (a particular fear for China - the DMZ minefields & wire make it harder to go the other way) & a million-man army turning into armed gangs . . . S. Korea props up the North for the same reasons as China, & because it doesn't want to see fellow Koreans starving.

Considering that, do you see why I thought any reference to the Korean war irrelevant to the current situation? Everything has changed except the physical division, the armies facing each otheR, & some peoples emotional reactions. The neighbours, their relationships with the Korean states, the relative economic & military strengths of the North & South - it's all different.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
Really? Why the constant going back and forth over Taiwan. ...
Because China really, sincerely, strongly believes Taiwan is an integral part of China that was taken by force, firstly in 1895, then again in 1949, & wants it back. Korea is another country, & S. Korea is now quite a friendly one. A very different kettle of fish.
 

contedicavour

New Member
Because China really, sincerely, strongly believes Taiwan is an integral part of China that was taken by force, firstly in 1895, then again in 1949, & wants it back. Korea is another country, & S. Korea is now quite a friendly one. A very different kettle of fish.
I think China would still intervene in case of conflict on the Korean peninsula, but mostly to prevent millions of refugees from spilling over the border into China. There is a higher risk of internal collapse of the N. Korean regime than of actual war, especially now that NK's Kim junior is in a negotiating phase over his nuclear facilities.
I think it likely that in some 5-10 years we'll see Chinese peacekeepers side to side with South Korean ones distributing emergency supplies to beleaguered North Koreans...
Anyway I fully agree this has nothing in common with the Taiwanese situation !

cheers
 

10ringr

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I think China would still intervene in case of conflict on the Korean peninsula, but mostly to prevent millions of refugees from spilling over the border into China. There is a higher risk of internal collapse of the N. Korean regime than of actual war, especially now that NK's Kim junior is in a negotiating phase over his nuclear facilities.
I think it likely that in some 5-10 years we'll see Chinese peacekeepers side to side with South Korean ones distributing emergency supplies to beleaguered North Koreans...
Anyway I fully agree this has nothing in common with the Taiwanese situation !

cheers
My Dad fought in Korea. Most of my Army buddies at one time or another had a deployment there. I guess our perspective is bound to be a little different then yours. Hutch
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
This is not an argument.
As brave as your relatives may had fought in the korean war it has not much impact on todays facts.

Those facts have been presented to you by Swerve and others.

If your relatives fought in Korea or not doesn't change these facts.
 

10ringr

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
This is not an argument.
As brave as your relatives may had fought in the korean war it has not much impact on todays facts.

Those facts have been presented to you by Swerve and others.

If your relatives fought in Korea or not doesn't change these facts.
No, I don't think it changes the facts Waylander. I do think it changes perspective, that's all I'm saying. Hutch
 

10ringr

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
No, I don't think it changes the facts Waylander. I do think it changes perspective, that's all I'm saying. Hutch
Reading this again. I see where your going. No, I'm not trying to be an arrogant jerk ;) . Which could easily be mistaken for what I mean. I'm trying to convey that we have always been mentally geared to the realization that Korea was a war we fought and it didn't end well. In fact it didn't really end did it? Since we didn't expect China to intervene as they did the first time this discussion seems somehow familiar if you know what I mean? I respect you guys, very much and that respect is growing daily. I do say what I think but I'll try to be a bit more sensitive because I don't wish to offend you or anyone for that matter, especially the moderators who can shut me down like a bad habit :D Seriously, you guys have made me think in ways I've never been exposed to and I'm appreciative of that. Hutch
 

10ringr

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
No, I don't think it changes the facts Waylander. I do think it changes perspective, that's all I'm saying. Hutch
I was wondering. Did any of you think when our American AWAC's plane was brought down by China (or whatever you call it) that they would keep our citizens and dismantle our aircraft. Duzn't that seem incredibly provacative?
 

alexsa

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
I was wondering. Did any of you think when our American AWAC's plane was brought down by China (or whatever you call it) that they would keep our citizens and dismantle our aircraft. Duzn't that seem incredibly provacative?
It was actually an EP-3 Aries (based on the P-3 airframe) rather and an AWAC's. These are an eltrocic warfare/reconnaisance aircraft.

http://www.fas.org/irp/program/collect/ep-3_aries.htm
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I see what you are meaning and for sure the perspective onto this topic differs when you are more related to the Korean War.
And there is for sure nobody here who wants to give a 100% perspective about how China reacts in case of a new hot Korean War but one has to put the facts of today into the right perspective.
No offence intended. :)

And I am sure if a Chinese ELINT plane would have downed in the US the US scientists and technicians would have done the same and try to get as many informations as possible out of the plane before giving it back.
 

contedicavour

New Member
I see what you are meaning and for sure the perspective onto this topic differs when you are more related to the Korean War.
And there is for sure nobody here who wants to give a 100% perspective about how China reacts in case of a new hot Korean War but one has to put the facts of today into the right perspective.
No offence intended. :)

And I am sure if a Chinese ELINT plane would have downed in the US the US scientists and technicians would have done the same and try to get as many informations as possible out of the plane before giving it back.
Except that US ELINT carries more interest to the Chinese than Chinese ELINT to the US ;)

Could you explain your new Avatar please ? Your Leo2 hit a "stop" roadsign and it remained on your tank ? :D ;)

cheers
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Except that US ELINT carries more interest to the Chinese than Chinese ELINT to the US ;)

Could you explain your new Avatar please ? Your Leo2 hit a "stop" roadsign and it remained on your tank ? :D ;)

cheers
He nicked the "beware of tanks" roadsign. I remember the story, but it it first recently that Waylander started using it as an avatar. :D
 

contedicavour

New Member
He nicked the "beware of tanks" roadsign. I remember the story, but it it first recently that Waylander started using it as an avatar. :D
Boo bad Waylander bad ;) :D 10 points less on his driving licence :cool:
I suggest you send your Leo2 to one of Cobra 11's (the TV series) episodes !
Ah in reality we are all a bit jealous of his 60 tonne monster ;)

cheers
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I would think that the exact interior of a chinese ELINT plane is also very interesting for the US.

As for the Avatar.

It was during the last maneuver of my than TC.
He was going to be retired after that and wanted something to hang onto his house as a memory.
So during a foggy morning my TC and me took a Wolf and headed for a lonely training range and captured this prize in a brave operation called "Operation Nebelkrähe" (operation dun crow). ;)

For the rest of the maneuver we carried it in the basket at the back of the turret. :D

I have never downed a roadsign only trees and trenches and barbed wire and... ;)

I bet Aussie Digger, Eckherl or DavidDCM also have their share of downed obstacles.



Edit: I am sooooo slow...
 
A

Aussie Digger

Guest
I would think that the exact interior of a chinese ELINT plane is also very interesting for the US.

As for the Avatar.

It was during the last maneuver of my than TC.
He was going to be retired after that and wanted something to hang onto his house as a memory.
So during a foggy morning my TC and me took a Wolf and headed for a lonely training range and captured this prize in a brave operation called "Operation Nebelkrähe" (operation dun crow). ;)

For the rest of the maneuver we carried it in the basket at the back of the turret. :D

I have never downed a roadsign only trees and trenches and barbed wire and... ;)

I bet Aussie Digger, Eckherl or DavidDCM also have their share of downed obstacles.



Edit: I am sooooo slow...
I too never downed a road sign, but trees, stumps and the odd bit of barbed wire?

Guilty... :rolleyes:
 

contedicavour

New Member
I would think that the exact interior of a chinese ELINT plane is also very interesting for the US.

As for the Avatar.

It was during the last maneuver of my than TC.
He was going to be retired after that and wanted something to hang onto his house as a memory.
So during a foggy morning my TC and me took a Wolf and headed for a lonely training range and captured this prize in a brave operation called "Operation Nebelkrähe" (operation dun crow). ;)

For the rest of the maneuver we carried it in the basket at the back of the turret. :D

I have never downed a roadsign only trees and trenches and barbed wire and... ;)

I bet Aussie Digger, Eckherl or DavidDCM also have their share of downed obstacles.



Edit: I am sooooo slow...
Ah-ha some people would have settled for a regimental flag or for a reduced size model of the Leo2, but I guess that's too conventional ;)

Going back to topic, haven't the US kept Soviet jets that defected to the West ? There must be at least a few jets that landed in Alaska or in Western Europe over 50 years of Cold War ?

cheers
 
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