The Arjun Tank
- Thread starter Jade
- Start date
Surely your intent maybe noble, but it will turn this into flame war. Lets just talk about is it good enough tank, does it do the job a tank suppose to do, as its design consultants were germans.
Sure it is good enouth, sure it can do its job. The question as i said cost effectivity and reliabilty (bound to cost effectivity).
I am not sure on that, if it was good I doubt the army would shy just coz of cost. Army would have definately gone with "indegionous" tank, had it performed to their expectation.
What expectation? I cant see army would be very happy to buy a tank like T-90 in general combat capability but with TRIPPLE price, with MORE imported components (thus more depended on foreign countries good will) , and heaver / more expencive logistic needs.
Hmmm you get T-90 for US$ 1.3 million? May be some Chinese bootleg stuff may be available at that price. ( a T-55 with T-90 written in white paint and I can see atleast one of China's favourite customers buying it saying it is the 5 the generation tank
). AFAIK India's T-90 cost US$3.3 million (Old contract) and new contract may cost over $4 million. According to you Arjun cost should be over 12 million!!! a piece
Wow talking about Mad Math..
nfloorl:First T-90 batches was sold for about 2 mil $. Now they are probably close to 3 mil - but that is with all new goodies like new gen ERA, improved engine, etc. Besides, Arjun price also doesnt fall over years - it constantly "improves" too and now probably reaching 7-8 mil $ mark. Engine alone is close to 1.5$ mils.Hmmm you get T-90 for US$ 1.3 million? May be some Chinese bootleg stuff may be available at that price. ( a T-55 with T-90 written in white paint and I can see atleast one of China's favourite customers buying it saying it is the 5 the generation tank
According to you Arjun cost should be over 12 million!!! a piece
Wow talking about Mad Math..
Even in favorable case Arjun still cost twice as much.
P.S. Old quote from 2001:
By the same year (2001) estimate Arjun would cost 5.3 mil $.
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Exactally what next armor generation package is being placed on India`s T-90
LOL, what India paid for T-90 in 2000 deal has been a topic of controversey, with parliament debates alleging we waid too much. As per govt. sources, Russians asked for 2.7 million, we offered 2.2 million, settled somewhere in between. Now this was before we opted for Katherine. That cost was additional and substantial.
IA placed an order for 124 Arjuns in 2000-2001. The contract value was INR 1760 crore (US$390 million considering exchange rate of INR 45=1 US$ , 2001 rate - estimated), so Arjun cost comes to around US $3.1 million/tank.
Import content was around 50%, will get reduced to 40% with initial order of 124 units and will be reduced to 30% with serial production.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?t=2544&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=200
Arjun’s detractors also are quick to state that it did poorly in army trials and tests. The reason could be attributed to the comprehensive nature of the testing; it remains to be seen if this same level of testing was conducted upon the T-90s before their rushed induction. “Initially, the tank engines worked well, as the trials were being conducted at night. Problems, however, emerged once daytime trials began, with the power packs de-rating and at least one of three tank engines suffering extensive damage in high desert temperatures.” Despite the problems encountered, the MOD went ahead with the acquisition of the tank, dismissing the objections as “easily fixable.” The Arjun on the other hand suffered engine failures only after rigorous testing in the middle of the day. Also, one must take into account the dimensions of the engine. The T-90’s power-plant was in the 800hp class and had to propel 40 tons; whereas, the Arjun’s 1400hp power-plant had to push along 58 tons. The Arjun's powerplant operated under much more stress.
The media continually compares a Leo-2 style tank with a Russian T-series. Arjun's delays reflect the changes in IA specifications and parameters.
The first 120 tanks to be built would cost $4.2 million each, while other cost estimates places the figure at $5.6 million each per tank by 2001, given a purchase of 124 tanks to equip two regiments.
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why does india's own media and military tend to show rejection toward this project!?
Arjun’s detractors also are quick to state that it did poorly in army trials and tests. The reason could be attributed to the comprehensive nature of the testing; it remains to be seen if this same level of testing was conducted upon the T-90s before their rushed induction. “Initially, the tank engines worked well, as the trials were being conducted at night. Problems, however, emerged once daytime trials began, with the power packs de-rating and at least one of three tank engines suffering extensive damage in high desert temperatures.” Despite the problems encountered, the MOD went ahead with the acquisition of the tank, dismissing the objections as “easily fixable.” The Arjun on the other hand suffered engine failures only after rigorous testing in the middle of the day. Also, one must take into account the dimensions of the engine. The T-90’s power-plant was in the 800hp class and had to propel 40 tons; whereas, the Arjun’s 1400hp power-plant had to push along 58 tons. The Arjun's powerplant operated under much more stress.
The media continually compares a Leo-2 style tank with a Russian T-series. Arjun's delays reflect the changes in IA specifications and parameters.
The first 120 tanks to be built would cost $4.2 million each, while other cost estimates places the figure at $5.6 million each per tank by 2001, given a purchase of 124 tanks to equip two regiments.
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why does india's own media and military tend to show rejection toward this project!?
390$ was preliminary cost, as usuall with DRDO it ended up with 5.3 mil $ in 2001 ALREADY, even before Germany nearly doubled engine price.
P.S. There was recently a papier regarding Bhim project. The Arjun chassis ALONE in that project stated to cost 3.2-3.7 mil $ - i.e. even BEFORE adding turret and FCS.
Regarding import content in Arjun - absolutely most vital components in Arjun imported to some degree. For security reason it doesnt matter much if you import 25% or 90% FCS - it will be still useless when foreign country stop delivering. At least T-90 is depended from 1 supplier only - Russia. Even Catherine thermals can be flawlessly replaced by equivalent russian ones - ALREADY tested and integrated. Try to replace Catherine with some other thermals - and it will require time & money for integration and testing.
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Preliminary cost? thats the contract..DRDO doesn't produce ARJUN, but HVF AVADI does.
Well for that matter T-90 TI is from France, rest from Russia. . Arjun chasis cost claimed in the paper (which disputes viability of Bhim project a dead project for different reasons) is not given by MoD. Till now there are no indications of cost escalation wrt to 124 unit order.
Arjun FCS is not imported. TI is, for the time being. so is the Engine. A project was activated this year to develop indigenous engine, but with peanut funding as usual.
T-90 and Arjun are in different class. Just take a look at the armor, gun , Suspension, BMS, NBC systems, comm, Automatic fire suppression system, (all indigenous) etc with an open mind if possible.
Compare the first hit PK of Arjun (Mobile at 45 kmph) vs T-90.14 Arjuns took part in full scale army excercise Ashwamedh with T-90 in Rajasthan desert. The results shut up the critics real fast.
Yess - India is a democracy not a dictatorship headed by some General, people are free to write about what they want. Some people don't agree that Ajun is right for Indian Armyt, some do. There are plenty of article/papaers which support Arjun, but offcourse you are not interested in them.
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As always with indian military industry contracts, they first signe it and THEN starting to compute how much really it will cost them. It wasnt first time when DRDO/Avadi/whoever overrun contract costs.Preliminary cost? thats the contract..DRDO doesn't produce ARJUN, but HVF AVADI does.
Well for that matter T-90 TI is from France, rest from Russia. . Arjun chasis cost claimed in the paper (which disputes viability of Bhim project a dead project for different reasons) is not given by MoD. Till now there are no indications of cost escalation wrt to 124 unit order.
Arjun FCS is not imported. TI is, for the time being. so is the Engine. A project was activated this year to develop indigenous engine, but with peanut funding as usual.
T-90 and Arjun are in different class. Just take a look at the armor, gun , Suspension, BMS, NBC systems, comm, Automatic fire suppression system, (all indigenous) etc with an open mind if possible.
14 Arjuns took part in full scale army excercise with T-90 in Rajasthan desert. The results shut up the critics real fast.
Yess - India is a democracy not a dictatorship headed by some General, people are free to write about what they want. Some people don't agree that Ajun is right for Indian Armyt, some do.
And well, lets compare all these properties - head to head. With numbers please, and not phrases like "best-in-world-super-high-tech-composite-passive-active-reactive-hard-grade-steel-advanced-chromium-armor".
Arjun FCS is not imported, but vital PARTS of said FCS are imported. In fact i can say without much mistake what Arjun FCS is only assemled in India - almost all parts are manufactured outside the country.
P.S. Where are the results?
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Sorry dude, it's you who said Arjun and T-90 are comparable, prove it, and again it's you who said there is cost escalation wrt to 124 units, prove it (that IA has paid the escalated cost or agreed to pay or has paid). Data regarding all the points I mentioned (except for the Kanchan armour) is publicly available. I assumed when you made that bold statement that Arjun and T-90 are comparable, you have the data..
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Ghm?
I already presented my points - why Arjun cant be much superior to T-90. Thermal imagers are from very same producer, armor cant be better due to large Arjun volume, FCS might or might be not slightly better - but T-90 already have more than adequate, gun is best case comparable to T-90 and most likely slightly worse due to rifled design... Mobilty is again best case comparable - but most likely worse due to heaver weight. And dont tell me about hp/t ratio becouse not everything is measured in it. Reliablity - i will not even start here, but T-xx series are widely known as extremely reliable, particulary also in indian conditions.
Given relatively counterporary designs and overall technological level of both manufactures - i assume both tanks are done on the same technological level. As such, if you want to imply what some Arjun component is far superior to some T-90 component - PROVE IT! Becouse common sense tell otherwise.
If datas are avalaible - bring it here. We'll see.
P.S. And costs, costs... well, right now i see what Avadi produced 15 prototypes with unknown cost . And openly talk about newer produced Arjuns would cost in excess of 25 Crore.
P.P.S. Are you REALLY believe AVADI will produce 124 tanks for 390 mil $ as signed in contract? When the very same AVADI told DRDO what Arjun chasis ALONE, without turret and FCS, would cost 3.2-3.7 mil $ ?
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ROFLMAO, you haven't seen one bit of data and you draw all these conclusions. It really doesn't matter to you that Kanchan is composite armour where as T-90's is not. You don't have a clue to velocity of 120mm FSAPDS or it's accuracy and consistency (0.2 MSD) of the round yet you draw a conclusion that it's comparable to T-90. You have no idea about barrel life of 120 mm rifled gun with refractive metal oxide liner(500 EFC), yet you assume that it's worse than T-90.
OK I too had assumed that you are a serious poster, have seen the data available on internet, obviously I was wrong. Believe what you want. I am not going to educate you when you don't make any effort to research.
I have already Pmd the data to more serious posters on this board and I will stop here.
Heh, T-90 is NOT composite armor? What you know about T-xx serie then? T-64 used composite armor 40 years ago already, decades before any other tank in the world...\
And yes, generally rifled gun have lower life, is much more expencive, and less accurate when firing APFSDS rounds. IF India have technology to make rifled gun BETTER than T-90 smoothbore - THEN for sure they can produce EVEN BETTER 125mm smoothbore gun. But they cant.
P.S. So, you cant present any evidence. Expectable.
It's disappointed to see the battle of two import lobbies: of Arjun and T-90S. Instead of natural aspiration for tech unification they promote self affirmation by puting the huge logistic burden on IAF:
1) double caliber without clear need for this
2) two completely different FCS without any thinking for comparability
3) two engine packege from different foreign vendors, two repair fascility structure
4) two totally incompatible chassis.
It's just funny to hear about the 'great HESH round' while all the World has abandoned it at the late 60th. The old fasion rifled munition without AL is promoted as a 'quantum leap', while India had lost a gold possibility for developing really new design by the indigenisation and MKI-sation of T-90 towards really advanced features, like BlackEagle-type autoloader, active defence and new gen ERA. Now this is a gloom reality: India has two types of MBTs, producted in the country with great technological dependence from abroad, but no SPH (after Bhim death) . OK, the national ego must be satisfied by any price, and if it's costly and profitable for a long list of foreign vendors, so it's just an expenditures...
1) double caliber without clear need for this
2) two completely different FCS without any thinking for comparability
3) two engine packege from different foreign vendors, two repair fascility structure
4) two totally incompatible chassis.
It's just funny to hear about the 'great HESH round' while all the World has abandoned it at the late 60th. The old fasion rifled munition without AL is promoted as a 'quantum leap', while India had lost a gold possibility for developing really new design by the indigenisation and MKI-sation of T-90 towards really advanced features, like BlackEagle-type autoloader, active defence and new gen ERA. Now this is a gloom reality: India has two types of MBTs, producted in the country with great technological dependence from abroad, but no SPH (after Bhim death) . OK, the national ego must be satisfied by any price, and if it's costly and profitable for a long list of foreign vendors, so it's just an expenditures...
Having the ability to use a capable HESH round is a poor excuse for using a rifled tank gun in my eyes.
It is not as if modern HEs (programmable fuse) for smoothbore guns are useless compared to a traditional HESH round while smoothbore guns tend to have better APFSDS performance which is still the main goal of a good tank gun.
One can better live with a little bit less effective HE round compared to a HESH than with a less effective APFSDS. (The two calibre problem of the Indian army has already been mentioned).
It is not as if modern HEs (programmable fuse) for smoothbore guns are useless compared to a traditional HESH round while smoothbore guns tend to have better APFSDS performance which is still the main goal of a good tank gun.
One can better live with a little bit less effective HE round compared to a HESH than with a less effective APFSDS. (The two calibre problem of the Indian army has already been mentioned).
This is also understandable. Arjun takes roots in 80x and early 90x, when India didnt had acess to advanced russian tech. And in later 90x it was probaly too later to unify Arjun with T-90. India had 2 choices: either scrap Arjun and develop totally new tank with T-xx in mind , or just save face and continue.
They choose later option which is also not bad. After all, the real expences for Arjun project is not THAT large for such big project. These money was good spend in developing own industrial and ingeniering base, gaining experience.
Hower, the question about Arjun large-scale induction in army is totally different matter. Here indians should really ask question if Arjun indeed so much better than T-90 to justify much higher price. And they cant hide behind indenisation - becouse honestly Arjun components are imported to even large scale (and what is more important from more countries) than T-90.
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