New Indian Air Force Fighter competition

[contedicavour]

A fast question on India's air force - are the Mirage 2000s in service updated to a level sufficient to use Mica IR / EM ? It might be a priority for Dassault to win such an order, because it would help the chances to sell Rafales later on...

cheers

 

[kams]

A fast question on India's air force - are the Mirage 2000s in service updated to a level sufficient to use Mica IR / EM ? It might be a priority for Dassault to win such an order, because it would help the chances to sell Rafales later on...

cheers

While comprehensive radar upgrades are part of package, there are some reports suggesting that IAF has opted for Israeli Derby/Python combination for M2K over Mica IR/EM. Will try to dig out the report.

 

[T-95]

They engage in dogfights in which nobody fires. Why do you think that is? What happened last time a plane crashed as a result of one of these encounters? There was an immediate crisis meeting to calm things down.

Neither side wants a war.

Yeah, lol. It's pretty pathetic and irresponsible. In my life I haven't seen two countries act this way. Neither can man up and actually shoot and neither can man up and make peace.nfloorl:

 

[Rish]

So I'm guessing that you've never heard of the cold war?

p.s. I don't know what you're thinking, but it's not hard to man up and shoot. It's actually really easy. You pull the trigger and your done. It's actually really hard to man up and have some self-restraint. It's a lot harder to look eye to eye with your enemy and shake hands than it is to slap them across the face. *In case you didn't know*

 

[T-95]

So I'm guessing that you've never heard of the cold war?

p.s. I don't know what you're thinking, but it's not hard to man up and shoot. It's actually really easy. You pull the trigger and your done. It's actually really hard to man up and have some self-restraint. It's a lot harder to look eye to eye with your enemy and shake hands than it is to slap them across the face. *In case you didn't know*

I meant they're too scared to have war with each other and yet they refuse to have peace with each other for fear of looking weak not as in a TuAF F-16 is scared to shoot down a HAF Mirage 2000 or the other way around. I honestly believe to they should have peace with each other but thats just over simplifying things. JMHO

 

[sashikanth]

i personally think that traditionally, india operates more mig's and they will be tempted by the sukhoi-35 on sale, but i think they should go for the eurofighter tyfoon as now these machines are the backbone of the european union. the indian air force will look more sharp and steady with these babys.

 

[kams]

A fast question on India's air force - are the Mirage 2000s in service updated to a level sufficient to use Mica IR / EM ? It might be a priority for Dassault to win such an order, because it would help the chances to sell Rafales later on...

cheers

Conte,

I couldn't find the old report claiming integration of Israeli missiles as a part of M2K upgrade. Here is the latest on upgrade.

BORDEAUX (FRANCE): With the Indian government set to ask for proposals to upgrade its fleet of Mirage 2000 fighters, French defence and aerospace company Thales will soon enter into a pact with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) to jointly bid for the project, top officials said here.

Thales has also committed itself to a 30 percent offsets clause for the upgrade, unlike some purchases in the past like Russia's Sukhoi-30s and MI-17 choppers in which upgrades were taken as part of the original deal, the officials added.

"I think, things are finally moving forward," said Jean-Paul Perrier, executive vice president for the $17-billion French giant, referring to the government's intention since two years ago to upgrade its fleet of 51 Mirage 2000 fighters.

The upgrade features will include multi-target, multi-mode radar, multi-channel digital video and data recording, mission data processing unit, mass memory, LCD glass cockpit and improved tactical and long-range weapon firing.
"The upgrade will also enhance and extend the weapon stealth and operations with additional capabilities to engage ground targets even while countering airborne threats," said Frederic Andre, director for Thales Mirage retrofit programme.

What does he mean by 'Weapon stealth'? IRST?

 

[aaaditya]

Conte,

I couldn't find the old report claiming integration of Israeli missiles as a part of M2K upgrade. Here is the latest on upgrade.





What does he mean by 'Weapon stealth'? IRST?

may be it means ,beyond visual range firing capability.

 

[sashikanth]

F-35's For India!

India has been offered the new fifth generation f-35 fighter jets by the united states.
ITS BREAKING NEWS!!!!!!
here's the link:

http://www.ibnlive.com/news/us-wants-indias-fighter-jet-order-dangles-f35-carrot/45214-3.html






New Delhi: Unmatched stealth and super cruise - the Indian Air Force got a glimpse of the future of air combat in an American presentation on its next-generation fighter, the F-35, on Tuesday.

There were indications that the US is willing to share this new weapon with India, but it's clearly a carrot for giving the older F-16 a leg up in the Indian tender for 126 fighter aircraft.

Says Lockheed Martin's Royce Caplinger, "Beyond the RFP that's on the horizon, the F-35 too could play a role, sometime in the future."

The Americans are raising the bar for the competition in the Indian arms bazaar. They are making offers which are difficult to resist. India is being told that it can have the new generation stealth fighter for the price of an F-16.

"Think one to one and I am serious when I say this," says Caplinger.

So, the F-16 is now being sold as the transition to a fifth generation fighter, which has no parallel among the competition. And affordability is the key to this sales pitch.

The price is about $50 million apiece at current prices. The Americans promise that the F-35 will take India into a different league.

"It's a game changer, in every sense of the word," says Caplinger.

The Joint Strike Aircraft will be operationalised only by 2014. The first of India's 126 fighters of an earlier generation will only start arriving by then.

So, the signal that the F-35 would be available is bound to raise an Indian dilemma: Is India investing over Rs 40,000 crore in fighters which will be rendered obsolete by a similarly-priced aircraft?

 

[kams]

Is there a need to open a new thread for this? This is not the first time F-35 is being discussed for IAF. This is just media frenzy being created by Lokmart and some domestic media.

Please post this is MRCA thread.

 

[Titanium]

This guy is jumping jack

Mod edit: Please refrain from posting one-liner comments in the future.
-Preceptor

 

[rjmaz1]

New Delhi: Unmatched stealth and super cruise

Its interesting how they mentioned supercruise.

I previously argued quite strongly that the F-35 will be able to hit Mach 1 without afterburners. Though Mach 1 is not supercruise, maybe they are consfused with the F-22?

It doesn't look like the US has offered the F-35 at all..... talk about jumping to conclusions.

It however would be a good move to say..

"Buy 126 of our aircraft, the first 100 will be F-16's and the last 26 will be F-35's at the same price of the F-16's."

That would work extremely well.. Selling cheaper F-16's would deny sales and income to the competing companies. With the F-35's chucked in to seal the deal.

I dont see how a squadron of F-35's would be bad. Its not enough to take on the US navy and by the time they worked out how it worked and copied it they would be a whole generation behind. Not to mention the F-35 is already outmatched by the F-22..

Such a move would destroy the hopes of dessault and the Russians.

 

[Viktor]

1) F-35 does not have supercruise ...nor it will ever have ... its wings and engine are not optimised for supersonic cruise (without afterburner) ....


2) Its stealth is far inferior to F-22 and F-35 stealth is only optimised from the front.... + it has no IC stealth .... to add further insult its stealth would be further decreased for export ..as USA already anonced that...

3) F-35B STOVL has only 7G limit to its wings + smaller internal weaponload

4) price will rise more and its delivery is also questionable as we dont know how mutch project will be delayed...

5) Its max dash speed is Mach 1.6 and max sustained speed is Mach 1.5 in clean configuration ... whitch is more than inferior to any other fighters

 

[nero]

1) F-35 does not have supercruise ...nor it will ever have ... its wings and engine are not optimised for supersonic cruise (without afterburner) ....


2) Its stealth is far inferior to F-22 and F-35 stealth is only optimised from the front.... + it has no IC stealth .... to add further insult its stealth would be further decreased for export ..as USA already anonced that...

3) F-35B STOVL has only 7G limit to its wings + smaller internal weaponload

4) price will rise more and its delivery is also questionable as we dont know how mutch project will be delayed...

5) Its max dash speed is Mach 1.6 and max sustained speed is Mach 1.5 in clean configuration ... whitch is more than inferior to any other fighters

.
great points victor !!

u r absolutely right !!

the best U.S jet remains the F-22-raptor

the F-35 is just a marketing gimmick !!

i bet that the MiG-35 is better than the F-35.

but iam certain that silly indians will buy the junk F-35.


.

 

[kams]

.
great points victor !!

u r absolutely right !!

the best U.S jet remains the F-22-raptor

the F-35 is just a marketing gimmick !!

i bet that the MiG-35 is better than the F-35.

but iam certain that silly indians will buy the junk F-35.


.

Didn't you know that 'Silly' Indians are buying F-70 and F-44?


Looks like you have taken up the job of 'Forum Joker'.

 

[Scorpion82]

2) Its stealth is far inferior to F-22 and F-35 stealth is only optimised from the front.... + it has no IC stealth .... to add further insult its stealth would be further decreased for export ..as USA already anonced that...

The F-35 isn't optimised only for low frontal RCS that's nonsense. The F-35 is less stealthy than the F-22 that's right and its export version might not feature all the technologies for same stealth level, but it will still be stealthier than any other fighter except for the F-22. What is IC stealth? If you mean IR how much do you know about it to make such a claim?

3) F-35B STOVL has only 7G limit to its wings + smaller internal weaponload

Not relevant for the Indians who would certainly opt for the F-35A.

5) Its max dash speed is Mach 1.6 and max sustained speed is Mach 1.5 in clean configuration ... whitch is more than inferior to any other fighters

That's sufficient for most missions and you have to remember that the F-35 wasn't designed as an airsuperiority fighter!

 

[Scorpion82]

.
great points victor !!

u r absolutely right !!

the best U.S jet remains the F-22-raptor

the F-35 is just a marketing gimmick !!

i bet that the MiG-35 is better than the F-35.

but iam certain that silly indians will buy the junk F-35.


.

Place your bet not to high. before you loose to much.

 

[Viktor]

The F-35 isn't optimised only for low frontal RCS that's nonsense. The F-35 is less stealthy than the F-22 that's right and its export version might not feature all the technologies for same stealth level, but it will still be stealthier than any other fighter except for the F-22. What is IC stealth? If you mean IR how much do you know about it to make such a claim?

Only F-22 has all aspect stealth, F-35 is foward optimised with other parts of the plane are narrow optimised to reduce RCS for most of radar frequences used by modern SAM system like ( Roland, Crotale, Rapier, 2K12/9M9 , 9K33 , 9M37M , Tor M1 witch use mostly the C, X and Ku bands for their search and engagement radars and X or Ku bands for missile guidance. With increasing radar wavelength both will progressively lose effectiveness. F-35 is not required to penetrate multilayer defences as opose to F-22 because F-35 main role is battlefield interdiction and close air support. So for a more dangerous missions F-35 is required to have escort for whitch role USA intends to use F-22.

Read : 1st Fighter Wing commander Brigadier General Burton Field

"The problem with the F-35 ... is speed. It doesn't have the capability to supercruise. Speed lets us get inside the decision cycle of the bad guy."

For the most dangerous air battles and attack missions, F-35 squadrons will rely on F-22s for support.

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/cat_raptor_watch.html

or this one :

Taking the next step in stealth could be the biggest technological risk. The USA has made significant strides in stealth technology since the B-2, particularly in LO maintainability with the Lockheed F-22 and F-35, but these fighters are designed to evade higher-frequency fire control, or "shooter", radars more than lower-frequency, longer-range surveillance radars.

To penetrate and persist in the presence of integrated air defences "the next-generation bomber will have signature reduction well below the F-22 and F-35," says Muellner. He adds: "They are good at shooter frequencies, but not at low frequencies. The B-2 is good at low frequencies, but not at shooter frequencies. The next-generation bomber will be really good at all frequencies."


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/06/12/214539/speed-bump-usaf-sets-modest-goals-for-new-bomber.html

USA F-35 will have "high stealth" and other export F-35 "low stealth" ...witch is LOL .... and you do know there wont be any tehnological transfer so for India witch has problems designing its own smal plane tehnological coorperetion with Russia on 5th generation multirole fighter is excellent oportunity to propel its obsolite aeronautics industry in the skys.

Yes IR , and F-35 has no IR stealth like F-22...

One means of reducing the IR signature is to have a non-circular tail pipe (a slit shape) in order to minimize the exhaust cross-sectional volume and maximize the mixing of the hot exhaust with cool ambient air.

F-35 has serrated edge circular nozzle whitch ....

Does the F-35 supercruise?
No, neither the F135 or F136 engines were designed to supercruise.


http://www.jsf.mil/contact/con_faqs.htm

 

[Scorpion82]

Only F-22 has all aspect stealth, F-35 is foward optimised with other parts of the plane are narrow optimised to reduce RCS for most of radar frequences used by modern SAM system like ( Roland, Crotale, Rapier, 2K12/9M9 , 9K33 , 9M37M , Tor M1 witch use mostly the C, X and Ku bands for their search and engagement radars and X or Ku bands for missile guidance. With increasing radar wavelength both will progressively lose effectiveness. F-35 is not required to penetrate multilayer defences as opose to F-22 because F-35 main role is battlefield interdiction and close air support. So for a more dangerous missions F-35 is required to have escort for whitch role USA intends to use F-22.

Right but that doesn't mean the F-35 is stealthy only from the frontal heisphere! No one says it has the stealth capabilities of the F-22 or that it is invincible or something like that.

USA F-35 will have "high stealth" and other export F-35 "low stealth" ...witch is LOL .... and you do know there wont be any tehnological transfer so for India witch has problems designing its own smal plane tehnological coorperetion with Russia on 5th generation multirole fighter is excellent oportunity to propel its obsolite aeronautics industry in the skys.

I don't understand what you are refering to.

Yes IR , and F-35 has no IR stealth like F-22...

Not like the F-22, but I doubt there won't be any IR reduction measures. The flat nozzle is one possiblity, but not the only one.


What I want to say is as simple as that:
The F-35 is not as stealthy as the F-22, but it is still stealthier than any other fighter in the world.

 

[Todjaeger]

USA F-35 will have "high stealth" and other export F-35 "low stealth" ...witch is LOL ....

I don't understand what you are refering to.

At present there is the LO levels planned for the USAF/USN/USMC. For JSF-participant nations there is likely to be a reduced level of LO (but still "stealth"). There has also been mention recently of possible plans to export the F-35. These F-35s would be purchased by nations that aren't already JSF program participating nations, and it is expected that the LO of the export JSF would be further reduced from that available to JSF program partners.

-Cheers