New Indian Air Force Fighter competition

kams

New Member
India has already entered in to a MOU with Russia for 5th gen fighter program (Sukhoi). Negotitaions are ongoing to decide the workshare. There is no place for a second 5th gen fighter in IAF inventory.

This is not the first time JSF has come up wrt to IAF, former ACF Tyagi in an interview mentioned that JSF was considered sometime back and deemed not suitable for IAF (due to political, logistical, financial etc etc reasons).

Lokmart is bringing up this issue again just to create positive media impacr within India. Nothing more.
 

merocaine

New Member
At present there is the LO levels planned for the USAF/USN/USMC. For JSF-participant nations there is likely to be a reduced level of LO (but still "stealth"). There has also been mention recently of possible plans to export the F-35. These F-35s would be purchased by nations that aren't already JSF program participating nations, and it is expected that the LO of the export JSF would be further reduced from that available to JSF program partners.

-Cheers
I could be displaying my ignorence here, but what is the point of the F-35 if you have to buy a version for export whose LO features could be quickly eclipsed by advances in detection systems?
From reading the forums in defence talk its seems its main advantages are its LO features and radar, if the LO features are compromised how does it compare to the latest MIG/Su/J11 offerings?

My other question, was the F-35 designed to work in conjuction with the F-22, ie to send in the F-35's after the F-22 had swept the air space?
 

Scorpion82

New Member
At present there is the LO levels planned for the USAF/USN/USMC. For JSF-participant nations there is likely to be a reduced level of LO (but still "stealth"). There has also been mention recently of possible plans to export the F-35. These F-35s would be purchased by nations that aren't already JSF program participating nations, and it is expected that the LO of the export JSF would be further reduced from that available to JSF program partners.

-Cheers
I meant more the lower part of his post.
 

Viktor

New Member
By my opinion best option for India MIRCA deal would be hi-lo Mig-35 for ground bases and F/A-18E/F with AESA APG-79 (with tehnological transfer) for Indian carries (atleas other two since Mig-29K has being bought already) ....

Developing 5th generation fighter with Russia is best posible option for India since they will gain great deal of knowledge about aeronautics....

F-35 is good fighter but not as good as you would expect from 5th generation...

India can modernise its Su-30MKI with Irbis N035 radar (detects 3m2 RCS at 400km ) , put some AL-41F 3D TVC engines whitch enter initial serial production thus Su-30MKI would gain supercruise ability of minimum Mach 1.3 even with weapons abord..
 

yess

New Member
hold on their indian fellows!:p: before jumping on any conclusion think with your head that is, is India willing to spend over $12-15 billion on F-35! i think it is one of too expensive contender for IAF like EF-2000 and Rafale.
at the then i think Mig-35 and FA-18 would be the best option for IAF.
 

yess

New Member
Developing 5th generation fighter with Russia is best posible option for India since they will gain great deal of knowledge about aeronautics....

F-35 is good fighter but not as good as you would expect from 5th generation...
what the hell did you mean F-35 is not a ture 5th generation fighter!:lul are you nuts! and what would you expect from a "5th generation" fighter? pleas dont make such absurd comments on something that you dont know of.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
I could be displaying my ignorence here, but what is the point of the F-35 if you have to buy a version for export whose LO features could be quickly eclipsed by advances in detection systems?
From reading the forums in defence talk its seems its main advantages are its LO features and radar, if the LO features are compromised how does it compare to the latest MIG/Su/J11 offerings?

My other question, was the F-35 designed to work in conjuction with the F-22, ie to send in the F-35's after the F-22 had swept the air space?
Part of it depends on the extent of LO features that would remain in export version of the F-35. However, even without LO features, because of all the work being done to allow CEC and situational awareness/sensor fusion the F-35 is likely to be a good Multi-role fighter, concentrating primarily on strike/attack roles, with air-to-air as a secondary role.

As such, an exported F-35 with reduced LO would, IMO, not be a good aircraft for a nation to equip themselves with if they expect it to primarily be an air superiority fighter. An F-35 makes sense if the Air Force is likely to be equipped with only one combat type and therefore needs to do a bit of everything.

Time will tell what India wants or needs.

-Cheers
 

Scorpion82

New Member
F-35 is good fighter but not as good as you would expect from 5th generation...
I would say you have just no clue what you are talking about. The F-35 was designed for specific purposes. The US didn't need a second F-22!

India can modernise its Su-30MKI with Irbis N035 radar (detects 3m2 RCS at 400km ) , put some AL-41F 3D TVC engines whitch enter initial serial production thus Su-30MKI would gain supercruise ability of minimum Mach 1.3 even with weapons abord..
Lol do you really believe such claims? Neither you will see a fighter radar detecting a 3 m² target at 400 km nor will any Su-30MKI ever be able to supercruise with mach 1.3 with weapons. But of course you are free to believe what you want.
 

Viktor

New Member
I would say you have just no clue what you are talking about. The F-35 was designed for specific purposes. The US didn't need a second F-22!



Lol do you really believe such claims? Neither you will see a fighter radar detecting a 3 m² target at 400 km nor will any Su-30MKI ever be able to supercruise with mach 1.3 with weapons. But of course you are free to believe what you want.

You are the one who is ignorant...


The "Irbis-Eh," developed at the V.V. Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Building has been installed on the Su-35, which provides detection, tracking and coordinate measuring of aerial, ground and surface targets by day and night, in any weather conditions in the presence of natural and organized interference. All the best that has been achieved in the radar area for the past 20 years is accumulated in the design of this system.

The range of target detection with an effective radiated power ((EhRP)) equal to 3 meters is 400 kilometers in the new radar – this figure already has been confirmed really during tests. The "Irbis-Eh" phased antenna array has been supplied with a hydraulic drive which allows slewing ((DOVORACHIVAT')) the radar in the necessary direction. Owing to slewing, the phased antenna array field of view is approximately 125 degrees. The station allows simultaneously detecting and tracking up to 30 targets, simultaneously firing at up to eight enemy flying vehicles or up to four ground targets. The "Irbis-Eh" also has such an important function as tracking one ground (surface) target with preservation of the view of the air space and locking onto targets which can be extremely useful in during "operation" against an enemy's ships which are protected by an aerial escort.

At the present time four examples of the "Irbis-Eh" have been assembled and are being tuned. One of them has been installed onto an Su-30 flying laboratory, and a second is being modified for installation onto the first Su-35 example. The documentation for series production of these systems has been published and transferred to the Ryazan' instrument plant. It is intended to finalize all the radar's main operational parameters ((REZHIMY)) in the coming 2 years. The realization of "exotic" functions, such as identification of targets according to a radar portrait or determination of the number of targets in dense groups may extend beyond the boundaries of these short terms, although a staged build-up of the characteristics of the radar's extremely complex elements is fully a traditional worldwide practice.


sorry the original link is broken so I can not revive it...


but you have pleanty more information about that radar on this page

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Flanker.html

During 1998 Mig-1.42 MFI with two AL-41F achived supercruise of Mach 1.8-1.9 in clean configuration ... AL-41F engines are entering initial low rate serial production for Russian Su-34 ... and for your information its dimensions are the same as AL-31 F 8 and its variations) so it is simply posible to replace AL-31F of Su-MKI with AL-41F to achive supercruise..


http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Supercruise.html











i dont know with only 183 of F-22 , second F-22 but cheaper whould prove to be total success now with some of them dispersing around the world and some of them staying at home for practice and training the will be no afect of them around the world. With F-35 they have multirole fighter with only mediocrate perfomance.
 

Scorpion82

New Member
You are the one who is ignorant...
Your article speaks about 3 meter what ever. RCS is expressed in square meters (m²). You are free to believe what you want, I don't believe a 400 km detection range against a 3 m² target. Particularly not for a PESA radar within that size.

During 1998 Mig-1.42 MFI with two AL-41F achived supercruise of Mach 1.8-1.9 in clean configuration ... AL-41F engines are entering initial low rate serial production for Russian Su-34 ... and for your information its dimensions are the same as AL-31 F 8 and its variations) so it is simply posible to replace AL-31F of Su-MKI with AL-41F to achive supercruise..
Lol for sure :rolleyes:
Sorry but that's totally nonsense. First flight of the MiG MFI demonstrator was on 29th February 2000 and the aircraft flew only twice! Don't expect it to have supercruised at all.
The original AL-41F is a different engine and hasn't that much to do with the new AL-41F1 which is developed for the PAK FA. The AL-41F1A proposed for the new Su-35 is a further developed version of the AL-31F incorporating some of the features from the F1, but it is not the same engine.
Another thing is specific dry thrust at static conditions doesn't tell you much about the performance at altitude and speed and the aerodynamics are important as well. The F-15E F-100-PW-229 are significantly stronger than the earlier 200 or 220 but that doesn't enable the Strike Eagle to fly supercruise. You are of course free to dream about a supercruising Su-30MKI, but don't be to disapointed if it isn't going to happen. The significantly lighter and less dragier Su-35 maybe, but not the Su-30MKI.
 

Brandon

New Member
Thank you Scorpion82. We know how much the Russians lie about things. Look at the Mig-25. Even the Tu-144. They said it could cruise faster than the Concorde, which simply isn't true. It could only cruise at Mach 1.6 and had to have continuous afterburner to stay at Mach 2. It also had less range. Why can't they just accept the facts. The U.S. has better quality, while the Russians (in many cases) have more quantity. And we all know that quality usually prevails over quantity. Put an F-22 against 4 F-15's and it will still win. Therefore, the F-22 is much more cost effective than the F-15 anyways and that's why we don't need nearly as many of them.
 

hellfire

Member
Your article speaks about 3 meter what ever. RCS is expressed in square meters (m²). You are free to believe what you want, I don't believe a 400 km detection range against a 3 m² target. Particularly not for a PESA radar within that size.



Lol for sure :rolleyes:
Sorry but that's totally nonsense. First flight of the MiG MFI demonstrator was on 29th February 2000 and the aircraft flew only twice! Don't expect it to have supercruised at all.
The original AL-41F is a different engine and hasn't that much to do with the new AL-41F1 which is developed for the PAK FA. The AL-41F1A proposed for the new Su-35 is a further developed version of the AL-31F incorporating some of the features from the F1, but it is not the same engine.
Another thing is specific dry thrust at static conditions doesn't tell you much about the performance at altitude and speed and the aerodynamics are important as well. The F-15E F-100-PW-229 are significantly stronger than the earlier 200 or 220 but that doesn't enable the Strike Eagle to fly supercruise. You are of course free to dream about a supercruising Su-30MKI, but don't be to disapointed if it isn't going to happen. The significantly lighter and less dragier Su-35 maybe, but not the Su-30MKI.
You are of course free to dream about Su-30MKI not supercrusing, but don't be to disapointed if it happens.
 

Preceptor

Super Moderator
Staff member
Keep in mind the thread title

Please remember the title of this thread, "New Indian Air Force Fighter competition," not "F-35 vs. Su-30..." If members wish to discuss or debate the merits of the F-35 and/or the Su-30 ad nauseum, please make use of one of the existing about these aircraft. For the future, please discuss the Indian fighter competition, as that is what this thread is supposed to be about.
 

Titanium

New Member
You are of course free to dream about Su-30MKI not supercrusing, but don't be to disapointed if it happens.
and su-30MKI is better than all the su-30 put together, coz India has put some magical powers in it!!! :eek:nfloorl:


I definately belive India should scap that last chance aircraft aka LCA and use use that 10B for developing MRCA istead. In this way the lesson learned from LCA will be useful.......that is how not make aircraft:nutkick
 

risingsun

New Member
US offers high tech F-35 fighters to India

US offers high tech F-35 fighters to India

Agencies
Posted online: Sunday, July 22, 2007 at 1406 hours IST


US-India New Delhi, July 22: In a major move, the United States has sent feelers that it is now ready for transfer of hi-technology weaponry to India, including its 5th generation Joint Strike Fighter F-35.


Though Pentagon has offered New Delhi participation in its missile shield, top of the shelf 4th generation F-16 and F-18/A fighters, weapon locating radars and its new brand of long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft, it has so far kept the F-35 under wraps.

But in a surprise move last week, a high-level team from US Defence Major Lockheed Martin met top officials of the Indian Air Force to convey that the F-35 Ligthening-II was available for IAF's 5th generation fighter requirements.

Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development, Rob Weiss told PTI after the meeting that they had indicated that the F-35 was ready to be in reckoning for India's fighter needs beyond the induction of the 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft.


The offer would come in handy for India as the country's security experts have been struggling to find partners to develop futuristic 5th generation fighters.

Though New Delhi has been in negotiation with Moscow for joint development and joint investment in next generation fighters, the Russian concepts of such fighters is currently only on the drawing board.

As reported in leading Indian daily Indian Express 22/7/07.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
US offers high tech F-35 fighters to India

Agencies
Posted online: Sunday, July 22, 2007 at 1406 hours IST

US-India New Delhi, July 22: In a major move, the United States has sent feelers that it is now ready for transfer of hi-technology weaponry to India, including its 5th generation Joint Strike Fighter F-35.

Though Pentagon has offered New Delhi participation in its missile shield, top of the shelf 4th generation F-16 and F-18/A fighters, weapon locating radars and its new brand of long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft, it has so far kept the F-35 under wraps.

But in a surprise move last week, a high-level team from US Defence Major Lockheed Martin met top officials of the Indian Air Force to convey that the F-35 Ligthening-II was available for IAF's 5th generation fighter requirements.

Lockheed Martin's Vice President for Business Development, Rob Weiss told PTI after the meeting that they had indicated that the F-35 was ready to be in reckoning for India's fighter needs beyond the induction of the 126 Multi Role Combat Aircraft.

The offer would come in handy for India as the country's security experts have been struggling to find partners to develop futuristic 5th generation fighters.

Though New Delhi has been in negotiation with Moscow for joint development and joint investment in next generation fighters, the Russian concepts of such fighters is currently only on the drawing board.

As reported in leading Indian daily Indian Express 22/7/07.
Lockheed Martin is not the US government. It'll try to sell the F-35 to anyone, but that doesn't mean it'll get permission.
 

kiduva21

New Member
Lockheed is really interested in indian market
But this move can be considered as destroy the indo Russian 5th generation fighter project ?????????
 

Viktor

New Member
Your article speaks about 3 meter what ever. RCS is expressed in square meters (m²). You are free to believe what you want, I don't believe a 400 km detection range against a 3 m² target. Particularly not for a PESA radar within that size.


The performance increase in the Irbis-E is commensurate with the increased transmitter rating, and NIIP claim a detection range for a closing 3 square metre coaltitude target of 190 - 215 NMI (350-400 km), and the ability to detect a closing 0.01 square metre target at ~50 NMI (90 km).

And what do you think this refers to.... RCS of course :nutkick

This radar is meant to suport R-37M / KS-172 ( or is it called K-100 now ).... both missiles are higly maneruvable and are no intendet to defeat only AWACS/TANKERS at long ranges so Irbis-Eh is meant to suport them.


Sukhoi bets by the SU-35 the official representative of holding Sukhoi said to FIDAE NEWS that Venezuela has expressed interest in acquiring the most modern Russian airplanes battle. The conversations are progressing to acquire a game of the new advanced huntings Su-35. This airship is the advanced military product more of that company. The work in new denominated Su-35 T10BM (Bolshaya Modernizatsiya or Gran Modernization) within the design office, began in 2004. It is anticipated that the prototype flies before the 2006 end, and from the 2009 hunting will be available in the market. Su-35 it is considered to fill the emptiness before beginning the production of the hunting of new generation of Sukhoi T-50 (PAK FA) near the 2015. The structural configuration of Su-35 is almost the same one of the series of Su-27, particularly, the new airplane does not have canards, which were the trade name of the more recent Sukhoi huntings, including also the previous prototypes of Su-35 (Su-27M). The aerodynamic propertieses have been updated; the control surfaces are smaller than those of Su-27. to increase the life on watch of the structure of the fuselage, many elements constructed in aluminum will be replaced by others of titanium. The alternative ones nail introduced in Su-35 include the new N035 radar Iris and the motors of increased push AL-41F1. The radar N035 Irbis (Irbis-E for export airplanes), developed by the institute Tikhomirov NIIP for Su-35 is the continuation of the Bars radar of Su-30MKI and, like his predecessor, it has antenna of I scan electronically passive (WEIGHT). According to the NIIP, the radar WEIGHT ' clásicó (for this company) is still far from being obsolete and is as good as the first radars with active antenna (AESA). The advantages of the Irbis on the Bars include a ampler reach of operational frequencies, greater angle of zone search (due to the best antenna and conduction of two steps), reaches greater and better resistance to interferences (jamming, thanks to a more powerful transmitter), as well as greater resolution, as much in the detection of aerial targets or surface. The Irbis-E radar is able of traquear-while-scans up to 30 targets, eight of which they can be almost continuously traqueados with sufficient exactitude for simultaneous enlistments by eight missiles air-air (AAMs) with active radar of midrange (RVV-AE) or by four AAMs of long reach with active radar (K-100). The Irbis-E is able to hook simultaneously up to four targets of surface. In the way of combined-arms operation, the radar is able to look for simultaneously in the airspace and the terrestrial surface including the enlistment of an only aerial target with sufficient exactitude to use a missile of active radar. Thanks to the power peak of 20Kw, the Irbis-E radar vee the aerial target of a section of three square meters from one distances nonsmaller 350-400Km not less On guard frontal or than 150 km On guard of tail (to great altitude). Targets ' furtivos' (with section of radar of 0,01 m2) are detected from a distance of 90km. The prototype of the Iris radar began aerial tests the 24 of June of the 2005 in the experimental fighter Su-30Mk2. The tests confirmed the reach search of the project as well as the possibility of the simultaneous work with nine targets, two real and seven imitation ones. The radar worked simultaneously in air-air and air-to-surface ways. Su-35 Kn instead of the 122,6 will be driven by two motor turbofans AL-41F1 with a power of 137.3 Kn of the present AL-31F. The updated motor began the flight testings in the experimental fighter Su-27M ' 710 ' in March of 2004. The primary target of the designers is how to increase the life on watch of the motors designed to a planned value of 4,000 hours (in comparison to the 1,500 present hours for motor AL-31F). Su-35 it must have a weight of nominal takeoff of 25,300 kg and a weight of maximum takeoff of 34.00kg; the load military Maxima is of 8,000 kg. The airplane can reach 1.400km/h near the level of the ground or Mach 2,25 to great altitude. The maximum range arrives at 1,580 km to low altitude, 3,600 km to great altitude or 4,500 km with two external auxiliary pools. The ample rank of armament options includes 12 missiles air-air RVV-AE of midrange, five missiles air-air long-range K-100 (KS-172S-1), six air-to-surface missiles Kh-31A/P, five missiles antiboat Kh-59MK, three missiles antiboat 3m5Â Biryuza or a heavy missile antiship 3M5Ä Onyx/Yakhont. The specification also includes guided pumps of 250, 500 and 1500 kg including the new LGB-250, KAB-500S and KAB-1500LG. Sukhoi takes part in shows aerial Fidae from 1994. In the exhibition of this year, Sukhoi appears like a company of ample profile of production. Excepting to the hunting model multirol Su-35, Sukhoi also exhibits a model of the transport airplane and Su-80 passengers, able to transport 30 passengers or 3,300 kilos of load to 1,400 km. Its prototype is in tests from the 2001. By the end of month, the first airplane of preliminary series will begin its tests in the factory Sukhoi-KnAAPO de Komsomolsk on Amur, said Igor Chernikov, director of the program of Sukhoi. Three airplanes are now in production and the next series of eight has been sent, added. The certification of Su-80 is predicted for the first fourth month period of the 2008. The first airplanes of production will be given to the Russian guard of borders shows the next ones will fly with Airlines Polestar based on Yakutsk, Russia


http://www.chile.mid.ru/misc/fidae2006_e_03.html
Convinced???? ... LOL never mind ....





Lol for sure :rolleyes:
Sorry but that's totally nonsense. First flight of the MiG MFI demonstrator was on 29th February 2000 and the aircraft flew only twice! Don't expect it to have supercruised at all.
The original AL-41F is a different engine and hasn't that much to do with the new AL-41F1 which is developed for the PAK FA. The AL-41F1A proposed for the new Su-35 is a further developed version of the AL-31F incorporating some of the features from the F1, but it is not the same engine.
Another thing is specific dry thrust at static conditions doesn't tell you much about the performance at altitude and speed and the aerodynamics are important as well. The F-15E F-100-PW-229 are significantly stronger than the earlier 200 or 220 but that doesn't enable the Strike Eagle to fly supercruise. You are of course free to dream about a supercruising Su-30MKI, but don't be to disapointed if it isn't going to happen. The significantly lighter and less dragier Su-35 maybe, but not the Su-30MKI.
Those two flights you are mentioning of the Mig-1.44 are two confirmed flight test... dont be ilusional and belive it is only two flights???! :eek:nfloorl:

They were involved in the development of the AL-41 at the start of the 1980s, and in 1987 - 1988, the prototypes were tested on Tu-16 and MiG-25 flying laboratories. They made the first 20 engines in Moscow, and in 1998 the plant in Rybinsk began familiarization with the technologies of the production of the new motor.

Originally, the AL-41 was created in the 20-tonne thrust class for installation on the A.I. Mikoyan OKB Article 1.42 and the P.O. Sukhoy OKB “Berkut,” which were developed under the multirole tactical fighter ((MFI)) program. When they shut down the MFI subject, the Saturn people decided to “rescale” the AL-41 into the AL-31 dimensions. At the same time, owing to advance technical solutions, the thrust of the new engine is 14 – 16 tonnes instead of 12.5. They showed the new variant at MAKS-2001. A mock-up of the AL-41F1-A engine was demonstrated with the personal permission of president Vladimir Putin in answer to Viktor Chepkin's request.
Besides the dimensions, the new unit is distinguished by a newly developed control system, where the engine control functions are reflects in the fighter's “central brain.”

Despite all the clashes of the “post-Soviet" period of Russia’s history, the AL-41 has been improved steadily. Thus, in order to fulfill the Russian Federation defense ministry’s new requirements, they increased the engine’s specific thrust (kilograms of thrust to kilograms of weight) from 11:1 to 12-12.5:1. They achieved this owing to the wider application of new construction materials (ceramics, metal-ceramics and the like) and the further design improvement.

http://www.royfc.com/news/apr/1404apr02.html

If a engine is meant for supersonic flight and is made with same dimension as Al-31 than i dont se why would not you have supercruising Su-30MKIs.
F135 has excellent trust to but is not optimised for supersonic flights and thus will never achive it...
 

powerslavenegi

New Member
Thank you Scorpion82. We know how much the Russians lie about things.
Sigh.yet another case of stereotyping eh.. Every one has had his/her tales to tell whether it be US or RU both have indulged in their own share of propaganda and why single out the above two from time to time each and every country induges in the same if it serves their interests.

Look at the Mig-25.
Yeah look at it and what ... its a fine piece of machine that flew Mach 3+ consistently enough carry a decent AtA weapons loadout and with a powerful Zaslon and high resolution cameras could also perform reconnaisance missions over enemy territory infested with SAM batteries.

Even the Tu-144. They said it could cruise faster than the Concorde, which simply isn't true. It could only cruise at Mach 1.6 and had to have continuous afterburner to stay at Mach 2. It also had less range. Why can't they just accept the facts. The U.S. has better quality, while the Russians (in many cases) have more quantity.
I would say if you want to just stick to facts for the sake of academics and
other public discussions TU-144 was the first of the two to fly,and break the sound barrier its top speed exceeds the concorde the fact that it wasnt a commercial success has got nothing to do with the technology.

Btw from where does america come in this concorde v/s TU-144 thingy ? I thought concorde was a Anglo-French venture.:rolleyes:

And we all know that quality usually prevails over quantity. Put an F-22 against 4 F-15's and it will still win. Therefore, the F-22 is much more cost effective than the F-15 anyways and that's why we don't need nearly as many of them.
F-15 was a benchmark for quality in the time when it was built you are being illogical by comparing two platforms 20-30 years apart in their design doctrine.
 

Izzy1

Banned Member
Posted by powerslavenegi
Yeah look at it and what ... its a fine piece of machine that flew Mach 3+
Yes, very fine... it needed a full engine refurb every time it touched Mach 3.

And please elaborate on that Air-to-Air capability. AA-5???
 
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