Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[nero]

mistral is a disaster

india is reportedly interested in the french mistral class with the indian shipyard garden reach shipbuilders and engineers limited carrying out a feasibility study on this project.

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another waste of public money guys !!the mistral class is bulky with very little self-protection systems on board

i think the indian navy should go for the FREMM-class, which is a far more potent weapon platform than the mistral

here is some facts on the fragile & vulnerable mistral.



The Mistral is the first vessel of a new BPC force projection and command type developed by DCNS for the French Navy.

The Mistral combines payload capacity and versatility. It can carry up to 16 heavy helicopters and one-third of a mechanized regiment, plus two LCAC hovercraft or forr LCM landing craft.

A high-performance communications suite makes the Mistral ideal as a command vessel.
The 750-sq.m hospital features two operating theatres and offers 69 beds. If additional hospital/medevac space is required, the hangar can be converted into a modular field hospital.

The innovative propulsion system features two electric azimuth pods, making the Mistral the French Navy’s first all-electric warship.


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[nero]

good point!!

Aster 15 isn't long range.

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good point swerve !!


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[kams]

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another waste of public money guys !!the mistral class is bulky with very little self-protection systems on board

i think the indian navy should go for the FREMM-class, which is a far more potent weapon platform than the mistral

here is some facts on the fragile & vulnerable mistral.



The Mistral is the first vessel of a new BPC force projection and command type developed by DCNS for the French Navy.

The Mistral combines payload capacity and versatility. It can carry up to 16 heavy helicopters and one-third of a mechanized regiment, plus two LCAC hovercraft or forr LCM landing craft.

A high-performance communications suite makes the Mistral ideal as a command vessel.
The 750-sq.m hospital features two operating theatres and offers 69 beds. If additional hospital/medevac space is required, the hangar can be converted into a modular field hospital.

The innovative propulsion system features two electric azimuth pods, making the Mistral the French Navy’s first all-electric warship.


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What? Please think before posting!!!. It's like saying why buy C-130's, instead buy F-16s. nfloorl:

 

[nero]

dont get me wrong

What? Please think before posting!!!. It's like saying why buy C-130's, instead buy F-16s. nfloorl:

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what i meant was that india should concentrate on buying advanced frigates & not LHDs or BPCs like the mistral.

my point was that the money would be well spent on frigates rather than anything else

by the way , i never compared the mistral with the FREMM.
As we all know they r like chalk & cheese


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[kams]

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what i meant was that india should concentrate on buying advanced frigates & not LHDs or BPCs like the mistral.

my point was that the money would be well spent on frigates rather than anything else

by the way , i never compared the mistral with the FREMM.
As we all know they r like chalk & cheese


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Oh, IN is expanding it's Combat fleat, including Frigates (3 more Talwar on order, 3 P-17s under construction), Destroyers (3 more P-15A on order, RFI sent for 7 more to European/Russian shipyards estimated cost of US$ 6 billion), 4 P-28 corvettes under construction and 8 more planned!!. Total of 33 surface combatants are under construction in India itself.

However it's the Aircraft carriers and LPD's which project power. That's where Austin class, Mistrall class come in.

 

[swerve]

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...
by the way , i never compared the mistral with the FREMM.
As we all know they r like chalk & cheese
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another waste of public money guys !!the mistral class is bulky with very little self-protection systems on board

i think the indian navy should go for the FREMM-class, which is a far more potent weapon platform than the mistral

By his words shall ye know him.

BTW, I'd like to know the general opinion of the FREMMs usefulness for amphibious assaults.

 

[Galrahn]

The Mistral class is the largest amphibious ship class outside the US Navy.

It currently represents more power projection that any ship is all but maybe 3 Navies worldwide.

It is one of the most modern amphibious ships in the world.

Given this, it is hard to be critical of the ships shortcomings in specific areas not related to its primary role.

 

[swerve]

The Mistral class is the largest amphibious ship class outside the US Navy.

[nit-picking mode ON]
Almost, but not quite, unless you count HMS Ocean as a helicopter carrier rather than an amphibious ship. She's marginally bigger - 4 metres longer, about 500 tons heavier full load.

The Mistrals are the largest non-US dock landing ships in service, but a larger ship (Juan Carlos I) is under construction, & two more on order for Australia, so that won't be true much longer.
[/nit-picking mode OFF]

It currently represents more power projection that any ship is all but maybe 3 Navies worldwide.

It is one of the most modern amphibious ships in the world.

Given this, it is hard to be critical of the ships shortcomings in specific areas not related to its primary role.

Can't argue with any of that, since I agree with all of it.

 

[aaaditya]

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what i meant was that india should concentrate on buying advanced frigates & not LHDs or BPCs like the mistral.

my point was that the money would be well spent on frigates rather than anything else

by the way , i never compared the mistral with the FREMM.
As we all know they r like chalk & cheese


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dont worry india is to float a tender for the purchasal of 7-10 5600 ton frigates and currently the dcn fremm and the south korean kdx2 are the favourites to win this contract.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

dont worry india is to float a tender for the purchasal of 7-10 5600 ton frigates and currently the dcn fremm and the south korean kdx2 are the favourites to win this contract

When is the tender going to be formally offered, and when do you think the contract would be awarded?

I think KDX-II would be a better buy for India. It has the SM-2 IIIA and RIM-116. On the other hand, FREMM only has Aster-15 (I think I'm right on that) and CIWS for protection. Although I rate the Aster above the Standard Missile, Aster-15 has a shorter range than the SM-2 IIIA and so realistically is only going to provide self-defence capabilities.

Of course it would depend what systems the ships would be fitted out with. I hope India gets the full package, not having to fit indigenous systems or something.

 

[swerve]

...I think KDX-II would be a better buy for India. It has the SM-2 IIIA and RIM-116. On the other hand, FREMM only has Aster-15 (I think I'm right on that) and CIWS for protection. Although I rate the Aster above the Standard Missile, Aster-15 has a shorter range than the SM-2 IIIA and so realistically is only going to provide self-defence capabilities.

....

FREMM only has Aster-15 in the current configurations, but Italy (& perhaps France, but I'm not sure about that) have been looking at a version with Aster-30.

 

[harryriedl]

FREMM only has Aster-15 in the current configurations, but Italy (& perhaps France, but I'm not sure about that) have been looking at a version with Aster-30.

i thought the APAR FREMM had the A50 VLS and could fire ASTER 30

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

FREMM only has Aster-15 in the current configurations, but Italy (& perhaps France, but I'm not sure about that) have been looking at a version with Aster-30.

A FREMM with a mix of Aster-15 and 30 would be good for the Indian Navy - I think they should go for the Korean option (if affordable) if the European option only has Aster-15 mounted.

 

[kams]

When is the tender going to be formally offered, and when do you think the contract would be awarded?

I think KDX-II would be a better buy for India. It has the SM-2 IIIA and RIM-116. On the other hand, FREMM only has Aster-15 (I think I'm right on that) and CIWS for protection. Although I rate the Aster above the Standard Missile, Aster-15 has a shorter range than the SM-2 IIIA and so realistically is only going to provide self-defence capabilities.

Of course it would depend what systems the ships would be fitted out with. I hope India gets the full package, not having to fit indigenous systems or something.

Request for Information (RFI) was issued last year. It may be good 3-4 years before the order is issued.

I am not convinced that India will select either Aster 30 or SM-2 (if offered) for these frigates, irrespective of the platform selected. India has invested in co-developing Barak II (70 km range) with Israel and recently approved another development agreement with Israel for developing a more longer range of Barak (120-150km) for Air force. This agreement itself is worth $2.5 billion. Given the amount of investment India has done in Barak, chances of Aster 30 or anyother equivalent missile system making it to IN armoury is slim st beat. IMHO .

Now what IN is looking for in these new class of frigates?

1. Missiles - Brahmos (?) and/or longer range cruise missile (domestic?)
2. Area defence - Barak II
3. Stealth - Signature management, Radar, acoustic and IR signature reduction. -
4. Sensors - Radar: Mix of Indian, Israeli systems?, Sonar - Indian? and/or foreign.
5. Fabrication technology to accelerate/modernize domestic capability?


Just thinking aloud. Welcome your thoughts/comments.

 

[aaaditya]

When is the tender going to be formally offered, and when do you think the contract would be awarded?

I think KDX-II would be a better buy for India. It has the SM-2 IIIA and RIM-116. On the other hand, FREMM only has Aster-15 (I think I'm right on that) and CIWS for protection. Although I rate the Aster above the Standard Missile, Aster-15 has a shorter range than the SM-2 IIIA and so realistically is only going to provide self-defence capabilities.

Of course it would depend what systems the ships would be fitted out with. I hope India gets the full package, not having to fit indigenous systems or something.

the tender is to come out most probably at the end of the year or early next year,request for information has already been sent,i dont think india will go for the standard series of missiles for the kdx2 frigates ,but may go in for the indo-israeli missiles.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

may go in for the indo-israeli missiles.

Yes, I suppose that would make most sense if the new projects turn out alright.

 

[contedicavour]

A FREMM with a mix of Aster-15 and 30 would be good for the Indian Navy - I think they should go for the Korean option (if affordable) if the European option only has Aster-15 mounted.

All it takes to use Aster30s from the FREMMs is the Sylver A50 launcher which is about a metre higher/deeper than the Sylver A43 for Aster15.
The issue is mostly where to place a long range 3D air search radar to optimize the usefulness of Aster30s, since EMPAR can be enough but can ony identify incoming fighterbombers at max 250km.
An active planar array version is under development though (in time for the all but the very first FREMMs around 2010-12) and I don't know if range is better.

cheers

 

[P.A.F]

Scorpene project yet to kick off
27 Jul 2007, 0217 hrs IST
DELHI: As if the huge delay in getting ‘Admiral Gorshkov’ aircraft carrier from Russia was not enough, the Navy now has to contend with slippages in the mammoth Rs 18,798 crore project to construct six Scorpene submarines at Mazagon Docks Ltd (MDL).

Sources say the production process to construct the French-origin submarines — slated for delivery, one per year, between 2012 and 2017 — is yet to kick off in full gear, almost two years after the deal was clinched.

Any big delay in the project will hit the Navy hard since its projections show it will be left with only nine out of its present fleet of 16 diesel-electric submarines (10 Russian Kilo-class, four German HDW and two Foxtrot) by 2012, with more ‘‘retirements’’ to follow after that.

In contrast, both Pakistan and China are modernising their submarine fleets at a rapid clip. Pakistan has already inducted three new French Agosta-90B submarines, while China already has 69 submarines, with one-third of them being nuclear ones.

The Scorpene project, of course, has been dogged by some controversy, with allegations of kickbacks having swirled around the October 2005 contracts signed with French companies — Rs 6,135 crore with M/s Armaris for transfer of technology and construction design, and Rs 1,062 crore with M/s MBDA for sea-skimming Exocet missiles.

One of the main reasons for the present slippages is that the French government is not according ‘‘enough priority’’ in granting export clearances for the equipment being sourced from France.

Incidentally, the French government is demanding much more money for the upkeep of 52 Mirage-2000s in the IAF combat fleet, as reported by TOI earlier.

‘‘It takes six weeks to get export clearance for every item coming from France for the Scorpene project. The matter has been raised with the French government but the situation is yet to improve,’’ said a source.

‘‘Some French vendors are also not responding to the demands quickly enough. There are already indications that the delivery of the first submarine will not be possible in December 2012,’’ he added.

Moreover, French firm DCN (Armaris is a joint venture between DCN and Thales) is having problems in handing over the required manufacturing data since it’s not used to getting its submarines built by foreign yards. ‘‘Consequently, purchase order specifications are not arriving on time,’’ he said.

Under the Rs 18,798-crore project, apart from the French contracts, a Rs 5,888-crore contract was also signed with MDL for the indigenous construction of the submarines. As for the rest, Rs 3,553 crore will go as taxes and Rs 2,160 crore towards other items.

________________________________________Looks like things aren't going quite to plan????? :shudder

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Scorpene_project_yet_to_kick_off/articleshow/2237414.cms

 

[nero]

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this is certainly great news for the pakistani navy

if the scorpene project gets delayed, then pakistani agosta-90Bs will rule the arabian sea.

also with the U-214 in contention for the PN, it;'s a huge morale booster for the pakistani navy personnel.

Mod edit:

I'm sure you can manage to discuss these matters without bringing religion into it, can't you?

Regards

AD.

 

[kams]

Production of next-gen submarine begins

The production of the first of the six Scorpene Submarines has started in the Mazgon Dock in Mumbai.

These Submarines, brought from France in a $4 billion deal, are desperately needed by the Indian Navy.

''We are making these submarines. It is very tough, the standards are high and complex. It will take us about six years to make the first one,'' said Vice Adm Krishnan, CMD, Mazgon Dock.

The quality of the hull has to be high. The steel hull has to withstand enormous pressure under the water.

A team of French technicians from DCN is also on the job, which scrutinises every weld and process.

However, the actual work is done by men like Kiran Purohit, who as a young man, was among those who manufactured India's first submarine, the German HDW, in the late eighties.

But for the past 15 years there were just no Submarines to make.

''It is tough work but it is very prestigious and we are slowly regaining our touch. The last HDW sub we made was in 1994. Then we made boats and missiles,'' said Kiran Purohit, Master Welder.

After the HDW contract was embroiled in a controversy, the manufacturing line was shut for ten long years.

The Navy was scared that the skill and experience would be lost. So the Scorpene contact has come in the nick of time.

''There is a naval design team at work and hopefully sometime in the future we will hopefully make our own submarine,'' said Vice Adm S K K Krishnan (Retd), CMD, Mazgon Dock.

The Scorpenes are vital for the Indian Navy, which will get six in the next ten years. But the real reason why the naval establishment is happy is the fact that the skill and know-how gained will help realise their dream - a Submarine designed and made in India.

ANd here is the video of the same,

Video scorpene

Mod edit:

I'm sure YOU can discuss without disparaging anyone else's beliefs.

Regards

AD.