How Good is the J-10?

[crobato]

There are many different opinions on how good the J-10 is compared to modern well known fighters like the Su-27,F-15C,Su-30. How does the J-10 match up in manuverability, avionics, and lethality.:unknown

Sorry if this thread is posted somewhere already, just tell me.

The one thing we are regularly sure of is that the J-10 regularly beats both the Su-27SK and Su-30MKK in exercises. (The kill ratios were allegedly ranges from 5:1 to 8:1). This is something the PLAAF has admitted. Thus no surprise that China stopped J-11 production and Su-30MKK purchases. The key question people like to know is how the J-11B would fare against the J-10. I don't think this is biased to the "local boys" because the J-11 is considered a local boy also; a major part of the aviation chinese military industrial complex is heavily devoted to the J-11 effort, and that means considerable CCP/CMC/PLA/PLAAF officials are onboard too.

One of the last major DACT exercises the PLAAF conducted towards the end of 2006 was the J-10s of the 44th Division, based in Kunming, going against the J-11s of the 19th Division, under the Jinan MR command. The J-10s were playing "Blue Army" while the J-11s were "Red Army".

 

[meh]

Do you have a link crobato I would like to read more about what the out comes were of the exercise.

 

[tphuang]

Sorry for being off the topic. I think from an interview with the chief designer of J-10. He said J-10 is a working progress. It will be improved over the years (just like any western and Russian fighters). So the very first J-10s shouldn't be that 'good'. But I'm sure it'll get improved gradually. Just give you reference point that the very first J-10s should be similar to F-16B/C (that's what the official said).

It's not that good compared to what? The issue here is that J-10s main opponent in the coming years will be F-22, F-35 and super hornets. At the moment, it has a decent chance against super hornet and not much against the other two. So in that way, it's not that good. But compared to the flankers way have, it may not have the range/payload, but it's a superior A2A platform.

Well as far as I know Pakistan has ordered about 30-36 of these fighters so fas and can order more if needed. But what upsets me is that the j-10 will not have the data link capability like the F-16s and eventually the JF-17 because Sweden and China refuse to work together

And can comeone tell me how good the avionics of the aircraft are?

how can J-10 not have datalink? the situation awareness on J-10 is supposed to be much better than that of JF-17 (especially with the upgrades they are making to it right now). As for datalink, the Y-8 AEWs should be equipping PAF earlier than the Erieye.

As for the ratio in the J-10 to su-30 mock combats, the ratio went anywhere from 4 kills to 0, 10:1 kill ratio and a bunch of other stats. Either way, all sources indicate J-10 dominated the encounters. One of the recent speculations is what happened between J-10 and J-11B. I guess we will know soon enough.

 

[Izzy1]

J-6s are actually perfected MiG-19. In that respects they are better than the originals.

Perfected...

Yes I suppose anything can be classed as that, 20 years after the Soviets stopped producing the original. J-6 build quality was generally regarded as bad, the PAF for instance had to virtually rebuild their's before letting them go into operational service.

That website is considered unreliable, and it's Venik's.

According to who? You??

Trade websites like Defence Industry Daily are using it as reference, so it must have some reliability.

 

[crobato]

Perfected...

Yes I suppose anything can be classed as that, 20 years after the Soviets stopped producing the original. J-6 build quality was generally regarded as bad, the PAF for instance had to virtually rebuild their's before letting them go into operational service.

The original MiG-19 was never a quality aircraft to begin with, in fact, none of the Soviet era aircraft ever were. So comparing crap with crap, you don't have a reliable standard of measurement when it comes to build quality. But you can go ask some of the private MiG importers in the US that they have a higher opinion of the Chinese stuff as opposed to the Russian stuff. But one thing for sure is that the J-6 has more features than the MiG-19. I also forgot to mention later models have an extended wingspan to help agility and reduce landing speeds.

The Soviets stopped building the MiG-19 because first of all, it was a complex beast to maintain, compared to the single engine MiG-21. And second it was a difficult plane to fly. And third it had little room for radar.

Its sheer maneuverbility comes at a price: it is borderline stable to fly with. The Chinese did a lot to fix the first part. In the second part, the MiG-19/J-6 is always a beast to fly, but when mastered it is said to out turn and out fly even a MiG-21. When you weigh less than 5800kg empty and powered by two 3,900kg thrust engines (nearly 8,000kg thrust), you got a TWR better than MiG-21s. The Chinese did quell down the J-6's instability with the Q-5 design; the nose structure added weight in the front that increased stability, but at the slight expense of agility and weight.

According to who? You??

LOL finally found someone who actually never heard of Venik's reputation. 'nuff said. Maybe you need to ask around.

Trade websites like Defence Industry Daily are using it as reference, so it must have some reliability.

LOL. This is even funnier. Venik is the guy that ran a website tracking the alleged (and extremely doubtful) US/NATO/Allied/Coalition losses on Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq based on highly dubious Russian reports with the supposed intention there is a media conspiracy going on in the West to hide the truth in Kosovo and Afghanistan.

http://www.aeronautics.ru/yugoslavia/index.htm

 

[f-22fan12]

J-10 is not state of the art , there are much better planes out there and it can certainly not compare to Eurofighter

True, it can't compare to the Eurofighter or Rafale. Maybe it could compare to the Gripen. what do you think of that?

 

[nero]

super-cruise

True, it can't compare to the Eurofighter or Rafale. Maybe it could compare to the Gripen. what do you think of that?

.

does the J-10 have super-cruise ???

if yes then it can be compared to the best that the europeans have to offer.


.

 

[swerve]

.

does the J-10 have super-cruise ???

if yes then it can be compared to the best that the europeans have to offer.

.

Are you saying that Chinese avionics & control systems are as good as the best that Europe can produce? Or do you think that only the airframe & engine matter?

 

[Titanium]

LoNg time lurking around, I have a very quick question
Is there need for all the new advanced fighter aircraft, with all the performance enhancement? I mean , if we Furnish all the modern avionics in Mig 21 or any light fighter things like AESA Radar, IRST, Modern interface, BVR Missiles Etc, how does it compare in battle field to advanced fighters?


Also, considering new Electronic radars and possibilities of miniaturisation don't you think light fighters with their low RCS are better than more heavy fighters in point defence? what are the chances that a modern aircraft can evade a AAM than a Mig 21?

As the saying goes what difference does Aircraft make when you are facing each other BVR Missile?

 

[nero]

super-cruise

Are you saying that Chinese avionics & control systems are as good as the best that Europe can produce? Or do you think that only the airframe & engine matter?

.

the chinese aveonics has improved a lot in the last 4 years...

i only meant to know whether the J-10 has Super-cruise technology or not.

if yes then we can proudly say that chinese engine technology is at par with the europeans...

.

 

[Thery]

No, J-10 cannot super-cruise, since both AL-31FN and WS-10A were not designed to super-cruise at the first place. I believe with current technology it is improbable for a single engine aircraft to achieve super-cruise.

 

[f-22fan12]

.

does the J-10 have super-cruise ???

if yes then it can be compared to the best that the europeans have to offer.


.

No, it doesn't only the Raptor and Eurofighter have supercruise.

 

[f-22fan12]

The one thing we are regularly sure of is that the J-10 regularly beats both the Su-27SK and Su-30MKK in exercises. (The kill ratios were allegedly ranges from 5:1 to 8:1). This is something the PLAAF has admitted. Thus no surprise that China stopped J-11 production and Su-30MKK purchases. The key question people like to know is how the J-11B would fare against the J-10. I don't think this is biased to the "local boys" because the J-11 is considered a local boy also; a major part of the aviation chinese military industrial complex is heavily devoted to the J-11 effort, and that means considerable CCP/CMC/PLA/PLAAF officials are onboard too.

One of the last major DACT exercises the PLAAF conducted towards the end of 2006 was the J-10s of the 44th Division, based in Kunming, going against the J-11s of the 19th Division, under the Jinan MR command. The J-10s were playing "Blue Army" while the J-11s were "Red Army".

I believe it yet I don't understand it. The Sukhoi MKK is one of the best fighter airplanes the Russians produce. And it wasn't downgraded when it was sold to China. So how could an indeginous Chinese fighter defeat one of Russia's best? How do you know they just don't favor the J-10? If the J-10 could really defeat a Sukhoi 30 MKK or Su-27 WOW! What about in BVR combat. There I think the Sukhoi would have a better chance. It probobly has a better radar/electronics. Don't you think? Overall I think the J-10 could beat the Sukhois in a dogfight only.

Thanks for great participation in this thread.

 

[Marsh]

Looking at the info available, it might end being a latter-day Mig-21 on the export market. Generally inferior in its early versions to the larger and more expensive fighters but still a danger if employed correctly in the right hands.

 

[XaNDeR]

I believe it yet I don't understand it. The Sukhoi MKK is one of the best fighter airplanes the Russians produce. And it wasn't downgraded when it was sold to China. So how could an indeginous Chinese fighter defeat one of Russia's best? How do you know they just don't favor the J-10? If the J-10 could really defeat a Sukhoi 30 MKK or Su-27 WOW! What about in BVR combat. There I think the Sukhoi would have a better chance. It probobly has a better radar/electronics. Don't you think? Overall I think the J-10 could beat the Sukhois in a dogfight only.

Thanks for great participation in this thread.

No in BVR China wouldnt stand a chance against Russia's 30's

In dogfight sure it could have defeat Su-30 but dogfight is mostly about the pilot , so its not certain that J-10 is better.
Looking at the specifications overall J-10 is quite impresive, but if i had to choose i would put my money on the Su-30 still , that test didn't mean anything.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

I understood the J-10 was available in 3 models, budget version with chinese avionics and radar, which they were hoping to market for about $15 mil or so. An intermediate model with russian gear for about $20 mil, and one with western gear for $25 mil or so. Mind you its been a while since I read that, and I can't remember where.

 

[T-95]

Final word: Whatever!

Because of the Python-3 tech transfer to China in case you were wondering. And what was the point of your post exactly?

 

[Ozzy Blizzard]

The one thing we are regularly sure of is that the J-10 regularly beats both the Su-27SK and Su-30MKK in exercises. (The kill ratios were allegedly ranges from 5:1 to 8:1). This is something the PLAAF has admitted. Thus no surprise that China stopped J-11 production and Su-30MKK purchases. The key question people like to know is how the J-11B would fare against the J-10.

I have a hard time believing the kill ratio's in exercises show the true combat capabilities of a fighter, IF they are indeed true. There are allways ROE that are inteded to have a sertain result, that how you train for particular scenario's. So just because the PLAAF states that its first ever locally designed and built fighter gets 8:1 (or whatever) kill ratio's over one of the best fighters the russians have ever designed, doesent make it so IMO.

I don't think this is biased to the "local boys" because the J-11 is considered a local boy also; a major part of the aviation chinese military industrial complex is heavily devoted to the J-11 effort, and that means considerable CCP/CMC/PLA/PLAAF officials are onboard too.

One of the last major DACT exercises the PLAAF conducted towards the end of 2006 was the J-10s of the 44th Division, based in Kunming, going against the J-11s of the 19th Division, under the Jinan MR command. The J-10s were playing "Blue Army" while the J-11s were "Red Army".

Mate are you kidding me??????? You cant see the HUGE PR opportunity at having your first locally designed and built fighter be more capable than the russian design you bought, especially since you've been producing obsolete russian designs for 40 years. By having the J10 win the PLAF stating to the world and its own people "look how clever we are! the closest thing we've designed to a fighter before is a tractor and now our 1st gen attempt is better than a evolved 4th gen russian design to the tune of an 8:1 kill ratio". Your right i'm sure there was no bias toward the "local boys" in those exerscises, especially given the PRC expertise at propaganda and information manipulation. And you think the fact that the J11 is locally manufactured means there is no propaganda value in having the J10 kill it by stupid ratio's???? Please!!

Look i'm not saying the J10 is a bad platform or discounting the huge achievement the programe is for the PRC and the PLA. It is a truely remarkable acievement considering you were producing J6's not so long ago. However when i hear people stating that J10's regularly shoot down modern flankers in exercises with kill to loss ratio's of 5:1, 8:1 whatever, and therefore are more capable air superiority platforms i am slightly schepticle. Given the fact that this is PROC's first locally designed fighter, the huge propaganda value in its sucsess and the Chinese Communist parties history with information manipulation it is HIGHLY unrealistic to summise that the J10 is a more capable air superiority platform than the chinese flanker just because PLAAF's says so and has exercise kill ratio's to "proove" it.

 

[Chrom]

There is absolutly no reason why J-10 could reliably beat J-11/Su-30 in BVR or WVR. They T/W ratio is very close, J-10 aerodinamic couldnt be better, they avionic and WVR weapon are surery about equal, they BVR avionic and weapon also couldnt be much different - at least not SO different in the favor of J-10.
So, it looks like another wishfull chinese dream.

 

[crobato]

True, it can't compare to the Eurofighter or Rafale. Maybe it could compare to the Gripen. what do you think of that?

Probably not like the Gripen's datalinks. But if the J-10 has anything like the J-11B or the JF-17 defensive sensor and EW suite, then in those areas its closer to the Eurofighter and Rafale. That's a 500 signature RWR matched to an optical thermal/UV MAWS that is integrated to chaff and flares system and an electronically steering jammer that beams towards its target. There are two ports on the back behind the RWR in the J-10's tale that is identical in location and port size to the MAWS in the JF-17 and J-11B, indicating the same MAWS system. On top of the tail, you can see the EW device and its the same as that on the JF-17.