Surely Jordan is in a different category; a relatively poor (no oil!) Arab country which supplies relatively skilled manpower to the oil-rich but skill-poor Gulf states.
Arab Air Forces
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weasel1962
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Even before the book came out the PAF instructors & trainers assigned to RSAF had been complainig about this. They gave several points to their officials in PAF as well as in RSAF. According to them:
1. Majority cadits were tough to teach due to the level of education. Some had to be sent for special English courses (later RSAF started English classes in the forces it self).
2. They lack the "popular passion" for the armed forces.
3. Rich & educated are just too rich & educated to Join the army (that hints ur patrpchemical point).
4. Saudi leadership is passionate for technology but not for human resource.
5. The wealthy also consider the armed forces job as inferior (the famous incident was when RSAF official called aircraft maintainance as work of a mechanic --- I dont know if the RSAF official was a wealthy person or not but it proves the point).
However, there have been reforms & they have been affective. Saudis are joining RSAF & there seems to be a passion for armed forces [e.g: new Saudis Special Forces (Commandos) are pretty good ... not as good as others have but still better than what they used to be]. Educated are also joining.
Some say people have gotten motivated seeing their princes join the armed forces. But the princes in armed forces is very questionable.
1. Do they really have passion for armed forces?
2. In time of war would they participate?
3. Is their joing armed forces out of sense of patriotism or a political move (to make sure that armed forces dont turn against them by joining them)?
You do make a valid point Swerve, Jordan's manpower problems are probably a lot less severe than those of GCC military forces. Unusually for the Arab world, Jordan's military enjoy a high social standing - I believe King Abdullah is the only Arab Monarch who's military service didn't end on graduation day at Sandhurst. Jordan's education system also helps, for some years now it has been less 'religious-orientated' than those of other Arab nations - partly due to the fact as you say, it doesn't have oil funds available to attract foreign skills, so it must develop its own.
However, Jordan does also maintain the strongest working relationships with western militaries than nearly any other Arab nation. The RJAF for instance has long utilised long-term secondments of personnel from the USAF and the RAF. I would also argue that Jordan has been wise in the military equipment it has procured - buying systems it knows it can integrate and operate effectively rather than lavish kit which ends up only going into storage.
Again, you are not wrong - more relevant, technical education is the only way the Arab world is ever going to be in a position to have the effective military manpower it needs to match the kit it buys. Indeed - Arab economies as a whole demand it. But the hurdle of religo-social traditions here may take some time to compromise with.
Does anyone have any information on Jordans future fighter aircraft plans? I know they operate a small number of Falcons, F-5s, and Mirages. But does anyone know their future plans? Are they going to upgrade their Falcons or go for the Rafale, or EF?
The scuttlebutt Ive heard and read is that the Jordanian forces were probably the most respected of the Arab forces by the Israelis. And now? Like many Arab countries, western kit, western doctrine, western training. Is there really any doubt they have much improved?
The scuttlebutt Ive heard and read is that the Jordanian forces were probably the most respected of the Arab forces by the Israelis. And now? Like many Arab countries, western kit, western doctrine, western training. Is there really any doubt they have much improved?
I honestly think Rafale and Typhoon are out of Jordan's budget range for the moment. I would tempt the guess that they may soon start looking at ex-French Mirage 2000s and they would like to snatch up more refurb Falcons if the US Congress were willing to authorise.
Jordan's funding prioirties however may delay any new aircraft purchases in favour of new armour for the Army and increased funding for internal security forces and the Border Guard.
Jordan's funding prioirties however may delay any new aircraft purchases in favour of new armour for the Army and increased funding for internal security forces and the Border Guard.
The following is from Janes World Air Forces in regards Jordan's efforts to build up it's F-16 fleet. Must admit, I didn't realise just how much RJAF had turned to ex-Euro Falcon users as a source for more aircraft.
Janes World Air Forces, Royal Jordanian Air Force - updated 25/04/2007
Janes World Air Forces, Royal Jordanian Air Force - updated 25/04/2007
What about the Egyptian, Jordanians and Syrian air forces? I'm sure they have enough qualified personnel to fly their plane even though Jordan and Syria are very small countries with small populations and small economies. Another question is are the Egyptian and Jordanian pilots as qualified as the gulf pilots who do get into the air forces or are the Egyptian pilots still more qualified or better?
Another question is doesn't the RSAF pay ALOT of money for people to come work with them? because Prince Bandar was pilot in the RSAF and he was a millionaire when he joined in. I'm sure he wouldn't have joined if they didn't pay him enough money and would have probably went into some other job at Saudi ARAMCO or something.
I doubt Prince Bandar cared about the pay rates. He's a member of the royal family, & close to the group within the family who actually run things (e.g. his father, Prince Sultan). I think there are still some elements of noblesse oblige within that bunch.
From all accounts, the Syrian Air Force is in trouble, last year the Isreali Chief of Defence Staff claimed that it was operating at a very low tempo due to lack of fuel and spares for its ageing fleet. I will have a look through my Air Forces Monthly for the exact report. Janes World Air Forces also points to the failiure to purchase the Su-27 and the current standard of training as further indicators of the problems the Syrian Air Force is facing.
In regards to Egypt and Jordan, I have no doubt that they are as qualified as their Gulf counterparts and in some ways better prepared. As I say, Jordan has gone to great lengths with limited resources to develop a relatively effective defensive air capability.
Egypt remains in my opinion, the premier Arab Air Force. It has very good operating and maintenance levels - more importantly, it can maintain its own aircraft without the need for large scale foreign-sourced expertise. The EAF's organisation is also very streamlined and efficient, the training programme especially is reputed to be very good. Egyptian pilots probably have more annual flight hours than any other Arab Air Force (apart from maybe the Saudi F-15 fleet, which apparently logs more flight time than even the USAF's F-15 squadrons). Yet, unlike RSAF, the EAF perhaps make their hours more relevant by regularly exercising more realistic scenarios and missions, they also particpate in more annual multi-national exercises than most of the Arab Air Forces combined.
Significantly, the EAF holds a very high social standing as I am sure you can testify. It is very western-orientated, a lot less politicised than the Egyptian Army, common Arab military problems like nepotism and "operational hermeticism" don't seem to effect the EAF and the force is rightly considered an elite and professional organisation. Most of crucially of all however, the EAF has the most combat experience of any Arab Air Force over the last 50 years and has learnt the lessons and accepted change when it needed to be implemented. The final and best measure perhaps of the EAF is the respect it holds among other Arab Air Forces and fact that even the Israeli Air Force speaks highly of its capabilities.
In regards to Egypt and Jordan, I have no doubt that they are as qualified as their Gulf counterparts and in some ways better prepared. As I say, Jordan has gone to great lengths with limited resources to develop a relatively effective defensive air capability.
Egypt remains in my opinion, the premier Arab Air Force. It has very good operating and maintenance levels - more importantly, it can maintain its own aircraft without the need for large scale foreign-sourced expertise. The EAF's organisation is also very streamlined and efficient, the training programme especially is reputed to be very good. Egyptian pilots probably have more annual flight hours than any other Arab Air Force (apart from maybe the Saudi F-15 fleet, which apparently logs more flight time than even the USAF's F-15 squadrons). Yet, unlike RSAF, the EAF perhaps make their hours more relevant by regularly exercising more realistic scenarios and missions, they also particpate in more annual multi-national exercises than most of the Arab Air Forces combined.
Significantly, the EAF holds a very high social standing as I am sure you can testify. It is very western-orientated, a lot less politicised than the Egyptian Army, common Arab military problems like nepotism and "operational hermeticism" don't seem to effect the EAF and the force is rightly considered an elite and professional organisation. Most of crucially of all however, the EAF has the most combat experience of any Arab Air Force over the last 50 years and has learnt the lessons and accepted change when it needed to be implemented. The final and best measure perhaps of the EAF is the respect it holds among other Arab Air Forces and fact that even the Israeli Air Force speaks highly of its capabilities.
Just to answer this one quickly, yes RSAF does have good pay scales, the best in the Saudi military. Non-Royalty however are still attracted to the civilian sector for numerous reasons. For the Princes, joining RSAF is more about the lifestyle/glamour it offers than money (what do you want after a Ferrari - an F-15 perhaps?) - you don't find many Princes in the Hercules squadrons. As Kenneth Pollack also describes, there is a certain "warrior" image that the House of Saud considers it has to be seen to meet, RSAF is seen as the most comfortable way of achieveing this. Finally, joining the military and the RSAF especially is an excellent way of developing political influence - Prince Bandar being an excellent case in point.
SaudiArabian
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many of the PAF personnel (or any other Pakistani scientist working in the Kingdom) speak English awefully and with the Urdo accent , this makes difficulty to communicate and i witnessed this alot in King Saud University
says who ? .. what is your source for that ?
joining the Armed Forces is a source of pride (similar to the pride given to a doctor) in the Saudi society
that is false , most Saudis are quite wealthy but not rich and it has nothing to do with joining the military
that is also untrue . Saudi Arabia isn't only training many national personnel but also foriegners from fellow Arab and Muslim countries get training in the Kingdom
in the recent graduated pilots from King Faisal Air Academy , there was a Pakistani pilot graduated with them
that is extremely false ! as i said earlier , the work in the Armed Forces , National Guard and the Security Forces is a high source of pride in the Kingdom
you will witness that if you are in any 'Majlis' at a party and listen to the men hailing a person and congratulating him for joining the Military (especially if he becomes a personnel in the RSAF)
Saudis were joining the RSAF since the time when its name was "the Hijazi Najdi Air Force"
i get sad every day that i didn't admit to King Faisal Air Academy instead of the college of medicine at KSU
there is something about the Saudi military capability that most military specialists do not realize
the Saudi Society is one of the most well Armed Societies in the whole world (with many peices of weapons per capita) and in many houses there is an 'armory' where weapons are stored
this is what explains how come tens of thousands of Saudi nationals were trained for very few months and fought very effectively in Afghanistan in the war against the Soviets , these tens of thousands were all non-military personnel . the same thing was repeated in Chechenya and Bosnia
yes somehow for patriotism but no political . its mainly religious/Jihadic sense because we , Saudi Society , consider joining the military as "Jihad" and now its more jihadic specially joining the Security Forces is a "Jihad for Allah" against the "Khawarej" aka Al Qaida organisation of the Arabian Peninsulla
Who exactly dose Saudi Arabia train besides the couple of Pakistanis every year that get trained to use Tornados and F-15's to serve the RSAF as private defense contractors?
Do Egyptians and Jordanians get trained there? And how can they train fighter pilots from other Arab and Muslim countries if they are the only operators of F-15's and Tornadoes in both the Muslim and the Arab world?
I think you need to tone down the patriotism a bit and present factual statements.
I'm sorry but I do have to step in and point out to you that King Faisal Air Academy has a long record of training pilots from most Arab nations - Egypt included. Saudi like all Arab nations has exchange programs that see students study at other participating nation's air academies. Its nothing at all to do with patriotism - its a fact of life! Every modern air force in the World does it.
Pilots there are not trained to fly specific platforms - they are trained simply to fly. First they receive basic flight instruction on the Cessna 172 or Super Mushshak and then progress if successful, onto the PC-9. If they make the grade, they then go on elsewhere for more advanced training.
SaudiArabian
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i believe Izzy has ellaborated enough
and by the way my reply is not based on "patriotism tone" but on facts
two days ago , there was a ceremony in King Faisal Air Academy of the 72nd batch of students , two of the graduates are from Bahrain and Jordan
as for what i mentioned in my previous reply , i can't provide you directly with the link because my posts are less than 15
to find it , check Riyadh Newspaper website and search in the archieve for edition #13698 in the National news and you'll find it in the headlines
every 6 months , the Air Academy graduates new batch of pilots
It's interesting you should mention Bahrain. I am trying to get more information in regards to the success of their new pilot training programme.
It is I believe, quite unique in the fact that their student pilots go straight from the T-67 Firefly Basic Trainer onto the Hawk 129. With no advanced turboprop training in-between (eg. PC-9, Tucano, Harvard II etc) - that must be quite a step up for anyone to make.
Sorry, I wasn't aware of this. I stand corrected. But dose that really mean anything?
I knew that Saudi Arabia and other Gulf countries participate in a biannual Egypt-US military exercise called Operation Bright Star but I didn't know we had connections beyond that (other than the few gulf Arabs that come to Egypt to get some training).
But I think this is mainly a co-operative thing to "boost moderation and stability in the region" and shouldn't be used to say the Saudis have amazing training (but they do have amazing training than most in some cases better than Israel) or have an amazing army.
SaudiArabian
New Member
as far as i know , there are PC-9's in Riyadh Air Base (its the old airport in Riyadh where King Faisal Air Academy basic training occurs) , i see them flying every day especially on day time
for example if you are near King Abdulaziz road in the Area of the military hospital then you may see these PC-9's flying on low altitude and probably even have the chance to take a picture if you have a good camera (not mobile phone camera)
there is an air exercise between EAF and RSAF where Egyptian F-16's and Saudi F-15's have participated , i was told that Saudi pilots flew the Egyptian F-16's while the Egyptian pilots flew the Saudi F-15's inorder to exchange experience and know the differences . i don't remember when that exercise occured but its more than a year ago .
Cool. Was this in Saudi or in Egypt?
Sorry I meant the Bahraini's don't currently operate any advanced turboprops of their own.
I always look up when I hear RSAF's PC-9s over Riyadh - they fly awfully close to Kingdom Tower sometimes! I'm fortunate enough to have a couple of paintings of RSAF PC-9s painted by an Aussie here who helps maintain them.