Indian Navy (IN) News and Discussion

[aaaditya]

Yes it makes sense. However how many years of useful service will the modernized Gorshkov have ? For a ship built in the early 80s and that has suffered structural damage from fires and dereliction, even with the current rebuilding, I wouldn't expect it to last beyond 2020 before ending up tied up in constant maintenance and repair. Heck, even the ex RN Hermes is unlikely to operate more than 50 years.
So I remain sceptical about the value of the whole programme, unless it is clearly labelled as a stopgap before India has 2 oeprational indigenous aircraft carriers.

cheers

indians have used the vikrant for nearly 25 years and they were second hand vessels designed during the world war.

 

[harryriedl]

Well, IMHO it was crazy to rely on firm delivery dates when we're talking about Russian shipyards (relatively limited experience when talking about carriers) repairing a '70s vintage hybrid attack cruiser / STOVL carrier for Yak-38. The ship suffered major fires and breakdowns and remained rusting alongside port for almost 10 years. The Russians are now completely overhauling it and even partially redesigning it. I suspect India got a good price because the Russians wanted to keep their shipyards busy, even if it meant losing money out of this complex order for India. However India is very likely to suffer major problems (deadlines first of all) with this refurbished ship.

Given today's good relations with the US, India could probably have done a much better deal buying the USN CV Kennedy with a complement of F18s rather than the Gorshkov...

cheers

#

usn Kennedy you must be joking Kennedy when it was checked by the marines it required 2billion to SLEP it and refurbish to the fleet. Kennedy wasn't SLEPed and was very heavily used in the cold war. also the F18A/B/C/D were would you find them the USN and the USMC are surching for airframes and some squadrons are going into reserve status.

 

[tatra]

#

usn Kennedy you must be joking Kennedy when it was checked by the marines it required 2billion to SLEP it and refurbish to the fleet. Kennedy wasn't SLEPed and was very heavily used in the cold war. also the F18A/B/C/D were would you find them the USN and the USMC are surching for airframes and some squadrons are going into reserve status.

Well, the Gorsh is setting the Indians back 2 bliion also....

 

[kams]

Well, the Gorsh is setting the Indians back 2 bliion also....

With the Air wing (Mig029K, KA-31), not the boat alone.

I do agree that Gorshkov acquisition is not all that great idea. But there may be some Russian arm twisting involved too, remember how the special steel from Russia for IAC was delayed?

 

[aaaditya]

when india chose gorshkov,there were only two options available,they were the gorshkov and the british invincible class,the relations with us governement was not matey enough for them to offer one of their carriers,the invincible was rejected because of its smaller size.

 

[contedicavour]

when india chose gorshkov,there were only two options available,they were the gorshkov and the british invincible class,the relations with us governement was not matey enough for them to offer one of their carriers,the invincible was rejected because of its smaller size.

I also agree that back then the Gorshkov was the only good alternative available, though for me it is only a stopgap until enough indigenous aircraft carriers are available.
If relations with the US had been better back then though, a Kennedy or even a Independence class carrier would have been better in price/quality terms.
Regarding the comparison with the Hermes/Vikrant, yes it was already an old second hand ship, but it didn't require any major modifications since it continued to operate the same Harriers and Sea Kings. the Gorskhov is been tranformed from a STOVL carrier for Yak-38 to a CTOL with Fulcrums, the electronics and a lot of the superstructure are been changed, and the ship was in a sorry state...

cheers

 

[ahussains]

I also agree that back then the Gorshkov was the only good alternative available, though for me it is only a stopgap until enough indigenous aircraft carriers are available.
If relations with the US had been better back then though, a Kennedy or even a Independence class carrier would have been better in price/quality terms.
Regarding the comparison with the Hermes/Vikrant, yes it was already an old second hand ship, but it didn't require any major modifications since it continued to operate the same Harriers and Sea Kings. the Gorskhov is been tranformed from a STOVL carrier for Yak-38 to a CTOL with Fulcrums, the electronics and a lot of the superstructure are been changed, and the ship was in a sorry state...

cheers

Dont u think buddy india is paying too much price for the Groshokov what i read is that 700M US for the Ship 800M US for Mig 29 which is 1.5 BN Dollars in total .. of such a ship which already suffers fire, accidents and some around 30 years old, The max life is 40 years of the Big Hulls, While Russia is in a bad shape in the 90's so they can not maintain it, Up to me its life is over.. What they are trying now some basic changes for the MIG29 and its Electronic systems and major overhaulling of the infrastructure may incress the life of the ship around 5 to 7 years max.. and the cost of the project is also incressed. (This is Just my thinking) if this is ship spend its 6 Months in the sea and 4 to 6 months in the docks for the repair and maintanence then the active life is only for the 3 years or soo ??

 

[kams]

Dont u think buddy india is paying too much price for the Groshokov what i read is that 700M US for the Ship 800M US for Mig 29 which is 1.5 BN Dollars in total .. of such a ship which already suffers fire, accidents and some around 30 years old, The max life is 40 years of the Big Hulls, While Russia is in a bad shape in the 90's so they can not maintain it, Up to me its life is over.. What they are trying now some basic changes for the MIG29 and its Electronic systems and major overhaulling of the infrastructure may incress the life of the ship around 5 to 7 years max.. and the cost of the project is also incressed. (This is Just my thinking) if this is ship spend its 6 Months in the sea and 4 to 6 months in the docks for the repair and maintanence then the active life is only for the 3 years or soo ??

Wow, thats one big sentence.

HMS Hermes is fighting since 1953 . It's expected to remain in service at least till 2012. Calculate the hull life yourself.

As to the price - $700 Million for hull refit and approximately $740 million for 16 Mig-29K and 8 Ka-28, Ka-31 combo. Deal also includes option for 30 more Mig-29K/Kub. Is this price too high? Don't think so. Could we have used this money on Indigenous Aircraft carrier? Sure, thats what we should have done. But we don't know what else is tied to the deal, do we? Who knows how many 'Sharks' will be swimming around the 'Vikramaditya' and how many 'Bats' are flying overhead .

By 2020 we will have minimum of 2 IAC and hopefully third one under construction. Vikramaditya in the mean time will provide STOBAR experience to IN Aviators.

As to remaining service life of Vikramaditya, and reliability, your guess is as good as mine. But even worst case estimation would put it much higher than 3-6 months availability/monthnfloorl: .

 

[harryriedl]

Dont u think buddy india is paying too much price for the Groshokov what i read is that 700M US for the Ship 800M US for Mig 29 which is 1.5 BN Dollars in total .. of such a ship which already suffers fire, accidents and some around 30 years old, The max life is 40 years of the Big Hulls, While Russia is in a bad shape in the 90's so they can not maintain it, Up to me its life is over.. What they are trying now some basic changes for the MIG29 and its Electronic systems and major overhaulling of the infrastructure may incress the life of the ship around 5 to 7 years max.. and the cost of the project is also incressed. (This is Just my thinking) if this is ship spend its 6 Months in the sea and 4 to 6 months in the docks for the repair and maintanence then the active life is only for the 3 years or soo ??

i argree with that statement as Groshokov would have had a shorter life even if it was looked after immaculatly, it would still have a shorter life but Groshokov[those artic winters take allot out of ships].
It has had a hard life and the upgrade is highly complex on a ship that has seen much better days. The lack of deck space is also a concecen as it ,the lack of expriances of the russian company refit Groshokov, Also the age of other sytems [fire fighting, pumps, c3i, radios] all make me worried at the possiblitly of an other fire and its readyness rates.
HMS Hermes is a diffrent case it was a much more mature desine. see the space on both sides of the island for parking of helos and harriers which eases the job of daily carrier life and speeds up rearming and refuling as their is more space for plans and helos on deck. also the hanger is of comparble size deispite being half the size as it was a carrier 1st and formost not a hybrid with lots of missiles in its orginal spec with a small hanger.

pheww thats alot typing

 

[contedicavour]

i argree with that statement as Groshokov would have had a shorter life even if it was looked after immaculatly, it would still have a shorter life but Groshokov[those artic winters take allot out of ships].
It has had a hard life and the upgrade is highly complex on a ship that has seen much better days. The lack of deck space is also a concecen as it ,the lack of expriances of the russian company refit Groshokov, Also the age of other sytems [fire fighting, pumps, c3i, radios] all make me worried at the possiblitly of an other fire and its readyness rates.
HMS Hermes is a diffrent case it was a much more mature desine. see the space on both sides of the island for parking of helos and harriers which eases the job of daily carrier life and speeds up rearming and refuling as their is more space for plans and helos on deck. also the hanger is of comparble size deispite being half the size as it was a carrier 1st and formost not a hybrid with lots of missiles in its orginal spec with a small hanger.

pheww thats alot typing

I fully agree with your assessment. Hermes/Vikrant was never really modified (leaving aside the updates to electronics and Barak VLS) since it continued operating with the same role and aircrafts for its long service life. Besides, its 54 years are a real problem : the ship has spent innumerable time under maintenance.
Gorshkov is in much worse condition now that Hermes was when it was 30 years old, and it is being heavily modified to fly different aircrafts and execute a much different mission (Gorshkov was a heavy cruiser designed to launch Sandbox SS-N-12 cruise missiles against USN carriers and the Yak-38s were only in self defence role).

cheers

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys ,great news here,it seems that the indian navy's gorshkov class aircraft carrier(ins vikramaditya) is on schedule for commissioning ,also indian navy is to construct a third aircraft carrier from 2010 onwards,so that ultimately indian navy will have 3 aircraft carriers.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.domain-b.com/aero/20070518_vikramaditya.htm

INS Vikramaditya induction as per schedule: Defence Minister
18 May 2007

New Delhi: Aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya (ex-Admiral Gorshkov) will be delivered to the Indian Navy by the end of 2008 as scheduled, defence minister AK Antony informed the Parliament. According to the defence minister, the Russian side has assured the Government at the highest level that the ship will be delivered as per the agreed timetable.​

The aircraft carrier is currently undergoing necessary repairs / modifications at a Russian shipyard. The project is being closely monitored by the empowered apex committee headed by the defence secretary and the steering committee headed by the controller of warship production and acquisition.
The defence minister's response comes in the wake of media reports about a likely two-year delay in the acquisition of the aircraft carrier, according to which delivery was likely to be pushed back to 2010 because of cabling problems. The carrier is due to replace the long serving INS Viraat.
Upgrade plans involve stripping all weaponry from the ship's foredeck, and converting her from a hybrid carrier/cruiser to a pure carrier. The carrier is due to operate the modified naval versions of the MiG-29 (K) and the LCA Tejas aircraft.
In a package deal, the Indian Navy has also contracted to purchase up to 30 MIG 29K (Product 9.41) http://www.domain-b.com/Aerospace/recommend.aspxaircraft, six Kamov Ka-31 Helix attack, reconnaissance and anti-submarine helicopters, torpedo tubes, missile systems, and artillery units, costing an additional US$800 million. The ship will be operated in a STOBAR (Short Take-Off But Assisted Recovery) configuration, with a 14-degree ski-jump on the bow and three arrestor wires on the stern.
All reconfiguration work is being completed at the Severomorsk shipyard.

 

[contedicavour]

Just a question about the 3-carrier target : the Hermes/Vikrant should be out by 2010-12, the first IAC should be ready by then.
The Gorshkov/Vikramatidya will be ready around 2010 (I'd say after 2012 but anyway ) , the 2nd IAC around 2015 earliest.
Since I doubt the Gorshkov will remain in service more than a decade because of its age and condition, there is a need for 3 IAC , not 2, to preserve a fleet level of 3.

Besides, how much of a priority does this have vs SSN programme and the new interest for amphibious capability ?

cheers

 

[kams]

Just a question about the 3-carrier target : the Hermes/Vikrant should be out by 2010-12, the first IAC should be ready by then.
The Gorshkov/Vikramatidya will be ready around 2010 (I'd say after 2012 but anyway ) , the 2nd IAC around 2015 earliest.
Since I doubt the Gorshkov will remain in service more than a decade because of its age and condition, there is a need for 3 IAC , not 2, to preserve a fleet level of 3.

Besides, how much of a priority does this have vs SSN programme and the new interest for amphibious capability ?

cheers

1. When budgetory allocation for Gorshkov was made, it was envisaged to have a life of 20-25 years and would join IN by last quater of 2008 (2010 may turn out to be the actual induction year ). An excerpt from a MOD document;

An Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) which inter-alia provides for acquisition of Aircraft Carrier Gorshkov from Russia for the Indian Navy has been signed on 4.10.2000. A Detailed Project Document (DPD) has been prepared by the Russian side, which is under examination. This indicates tentative cost of refit and modernization package of the ship as USD 738.6 million. So far three delegations have visited Russia to examine the Gorshkov in 1995, 1998 and 1999 respectively. The recommendation made after the visit of the Ist delegation is as under:-

The detailed survey of Gorshkov indicates that the hull, machinery and equipment are in a satisfactory state. After implementing modifications as outlined for operations by Sea Harriers and option for MIG 29/LCA, this ship would provide noticeable power projection capability to the IN for the next 20-25 years. It is, therefore, recommended that the acquisition of the ship be progressed in a time bound manner and subject to reasonableness of cost.”

2. IAC is scheduled join IN by last quater of 2014. From MOD document;

Work order was issued in Jan 2004 for design and pre-production activities. The principal design of the project has been completed and detailed design was progressed adequately on the full modeling and system validation. Production drawings are ready and the construction of the ship has commenced in November 06. The keel is scheduled to be laid in Oct 2008. Ordering for major equipments is being progressed as per the agreed schedule between Navy and M/s CSL. The first phase of construction includes 15000 ton of steel 2500 tons outfit is expected to be completed by Oct 2010. The second phase construction would follow and the ship is expected to be ready for delivery by Dec 2014.”

3. Regarding requirement of 3 carriers, this is what a MOD document says;

“The Ministry of Defence have stated that a detailed study of the maritime environment around the Indian sub-continent and the Indian Ocean region, maritime interests and the strategic imperatives needed to ensure our security had shown that the Indian Navy requires two operational Aircraft Carriers. For the operational availability to remain two, a total of three Aircraft Carriers are needed."

 

[aaaditya]

hey guys,great news here,the construction of the first scorpene submarines for the indian navy has begun at the mazagaon docks limited in mumbai.

here check out this link and article:

http://www.hindu.com/2007/05/24/stories/2007052414811300.htm

Scorpene construction work begins in Mumbai


India has a $ 3.5-billion deal with the French for six submarines

First Scorpene will be delivered to Navy in 2012
Components for first two Scorpenes will come from France

MUMBAI: The construction of highly advanced Scorpene began at Mazgon Dock here on Wednesday under a $ 3.5 billion deal for six such submarines with the French.
"Today we are at the starting point, the construction of the first section of the hull has begun," said Jean-Marie Poimboeuf, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of DCN, the French shipbuilders supplying technology, design, consultancy and components to Mazgon Dock.
Mr. Poimboeuf said the first Scorpene would be delivered to the Indian Navy in 2012 and then one every year. Thus, five submarines would be built almost together. The components for the first two Scorpenes would come from France. But most of the equipment needed for the other four submarines would be made in India by various Indo-French collaborations or joint ventures.
Mr. Poimboeuf, who is also the chairman of GICAN, the French naval armament industry group, and other French executives are here to hold a meeting between the French and Indian industries.
The GICAN and the Confederation of Indian Industry on Wednesday began a two-day meeting. Mr. Poimboeuf said nearly 20 French companies were being represented in the Mumbai conference.
Coastal defence

Designed for coastal defence against underwater threats, the 1,750-tonne Scorpene is 67 meters long and could dive to the depth of 300 meters. It can stay at sea for 45 days with a crew of 31. The standard version has six torpedo tubes and (anti-shipping) missile launchers.
Mr. Poimboeuf said the DCN had already supplied two Scorpenes to the Chilean navy and was constructing two more in France for the Malaysians. But in case of India, all the six were being built in Mumbai. While general architecture, propulsion system and torpedo tubes were common to all the three navies, the Scorpenes for India would be somewhat different in combat systems and living accommodation.
"The Indian Navy has got the changes made to suit its requirements," he said.
The Navy wanted incorporation of some systems which were used in other Indian ships on the Scorpenes. Besides, it wanted the tubes capable of launching two different kinds of torpedoes. Mr. Poimboeuf refused to identify the origins of these torpedoes.
The supply of sea-skimming SM 39 Exocet anti-shipping missiles was a part of the deal.
Technology transfer

While the technology transfer covered the entire submarine, the French would not transfer the technology for torpedo tubes.
But Mr. Poimboeuf told The Hindu that the supply of this particular know-how could be considered. The construction would reach that stage in 2009.

 

[contedicavour]

That last paragraph on torpedo tubes technology transfer is very interesting, especially as submarine launch of Brahmos is rumoured to be approaching (meretmarine internet site says so). May be that big cruise missile could end up being integrated into some Scorpenes ?

cheers

 

[XEROX]

S. Korea May Build Ships for Indian Navy as Countries Boost Ties

India and South Korea this week will lay the groundwork for defense cooperation during the first visit of a South Korean defense minister to India.


Kim Jang-soo, Seoul’s defense minister, arrived May 29 and met with Indian Defence Minister A.K. Anthony here on May 30.


“The two leaders discussed matters of mutual interest,” a statement from the Indian Defence Ministry said. “Various steps to strengthen the existing defence cooperation between both the countries were also discussed, which includes training of armed forces personnel, exchange of visits and strengthening the mutual cooperation between the coast guards of the two countries and widening the scope of sea-lane communications.”


Topping that agenda will be cooperation in shipbuilding, a senior Indian Defence Ministry official said. India is keen to get its warships built in South Korea to meet the Indian Navy’s rising demand for more ships and small vessels.


The guidelines for their defense cooperation was discussed during April 5 talks in Seoul between K.P. Singh, India’s secretary for defense production, and the head of South Korea’s Defence Acquisition Program Administration, Lee Sun-hi.

To begin with, South Korea could receive a contract for construction of a frigate and an escort vessel for the Indian Navy. Currently India’s shipbuilding capability is saturated, but the Navy plans to buy more warships as a large number of obsolescent vessels will be scrapped in the next five years.

Link

Some interesting news showing the direction India is going vies-a-vie its naval platform requirements.

KDX-3 sailing under the Indian flag would be...

 

[contedicavour]

S. Korea May Build Ships for Indian Navy as Countries Boost Ties
Link

Some interesting news showing the direction India is going vies-a-vie its naval platform requirements.

KDX-3 sailing under the Indian flag would be...

KDX-3 means Aegis and SM-2... if India asks it it could probably have it, but it would have to go through the US Congress.

cheers

 

[XEROX]

if India asks it it could probably have it, but it would have to go through the US Congress.

And that with possible "strings attached", in regards to KDX-3 that was just on hypthososis if India tendred SK for destroyers, the main issue is the frigates they can offer, the Korean Future Frigate (FFX) program comes to mind.

 

[swerve]

KDX-3 means Aegis and SM-2... if India asks it it could probably have it, but it would have to go through the US Congress.

cheers

Korea builds the ships, it buys in Aegis & SM-2. Could buy in a different system, e.g. something European.

 

[Grand Danois]

Korea builds the ships, it buys in Aegis & SM-2. Could buy in a different system, e.g. something European.

Aren't they using Smart S Mk2 on some of their other ships? And the APAR/Smart L combo was proposed for the KDX-III?