The French Rafale Fighter Aircraft

Dave H

New Member
The US might lag (im not sure two generations is accurate, could you explain what would be one behind for a non techy?) because they have the lead in other areas but surely the bonus of the F35 being multinational is that systems can just slot in if required. Im not sure what UK industries capabilities are in this field but I understand the Typhoon has IR search capabilities with PIRATE, if it is better than EOTS, I would expect the RAF would want it in the F35? Or would it not fit? The same goes for german, spanish, US or israeli systems, there will be a lt of systems out there to compete.

Defenceindustrydaily.com has an article on NCADE, this being an AMRAAM with an Sidewinder X seeker as well as a second stage motor. This would appear to be geared more at shooting down ballistic missiles but it shows that the US manufacturers have been looking at the same niche as the french. Now pair an IR amraam with an off the shelf hi-end IRST on the F35 (Although no one actually knows how good EOTS will be yet).

Aviational weekly back in 2003 was talking about an advanced long range IRST for the Hawkeye, anyone know what happened to that? The US manufacturers arent dumb, they may not always make the best but they do tend to make stuff that works and I would be suprised if they have missed the boat as you imply, still we will find out in a few years when everyone buys the F35.
 

BKNO

Banned Member
Dave H if it is better than EOTS, I would expect the RAF would want it in the F35?
The UKs are NOT planning to use F-35 in the same role as the RAF Typhoon for a starter.

Second i havent heared of Thales been involved in the F-35 programme.

Dave H Or would it not fit? The same goes for german, spanish, US or israeli systems, there will be a lt of systems out there to compete.
It wont fit in MoD budget no...

Dave H This would appear to be geared more at shooting down ballistic missiles but it shows that the US manufacturers have been looking at the same niche as the french.
Certainly appart for the fact that they are about 15 years late.

Dave H Now pair an IR amraam with an off the shelf hi-end IRST on the F35 (Although no one actually knows how good EOTS will be yet).
I dont think they're going to refit F-35 with a different IRST any time soon.

Dave H The US manufacturers arent dumb, they may not always make the best but they do tend to make stuff that works and I would be suprised if they have missed the boat as you imply, still we will find out in a few years when everyone buys the F35.
Dumb no but producing only marginally (when ever) superior stuff with oversized budget needing to pour liquid gold into for beeing carried over.

Before they can keep up with Thales it's going to take them time.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/1999/06/09/51953/seeker-gets-on-track.html
The infrared scanner works in the 3-5mn and 8-12mn bands, providing a 3-5mn capability for the first time in the west, says Thomson Optronique commercial director Jean-Claude Vergnères. This wavelength provides "considerably better detection capability in humid conditions", he adds.

THIS was in 1999.

As for technologic issue, a technologic generation is about 5/6 years, EOTS is no better than a good PDLTC-S with a slightly higher image resolution but no better A2A capabilties.
 

swerve

Super Moderator
The US might lag (im not sure two generations is accurate, could you explain what would be one behind for a non techy?) because they have the lead in other areas but surely the bonus of the F35 being multinational is that systems can just slot in if required. Im not sure what UK industries capabilities are in this field but I understand the Typhoon has IR search capabilities with PIRATE, if it is better than EOTS, I would expect the RAF would want it in the F35? Or would it not fit? The same goes for german, spanish, US or israeli systems, there will be a lt of systems out there to compete....
Little problem there. What do you think the arguments over the F-35 have all been about? We want to be able to do exactly that, i.e. slot in our own systems, & integrate our own weapons. The US attitude has been "Fine. Give us samples of your hardware, give us all the technical details, & pay us what we ask, & we'll do it for you. Don't even think about trying it yourself". You can understand why non-US manufacturers & governments are less than entirely chuffed with those terms.

Supposedly, the UK has reached a satisfactory agreement on this matter, but the terms have not been revealed.
 

jaffo4011

New Member
Little problem there. What do you think the arguments over the F-35 have all been about? We want to be able to do exactly that, i.e. slot in our own systems, & integrate our own weapons. The US attitude has been "Fine. Give us samples of your hardware, give us all the technical details, & pay us what we ask, & we'll do it for you. Don't even think about trying it yourself". You can understand why non-US manufacturers & governments are less than entirely chuffed with those terms.

Supposedly, the UK has reached a satisfactory agreement on this matter, but the terms have not been revealed.
i really hope they have,im hoping that the uk hasnt just rolled over on this one.its vital that the uk can independantly maintain and utilise its own weapon choices/systems as the us may not always go along with uk defence policy and they could have effectively vetod the use of the f35 in situations they dont concur with by withholding services/systems from the british.i guess thats why its also vital to maintain your own defence industires.i got to admire the french for their stubborness of thses matters(including developing the rafale).......
 

Dave H

New Member
True but I suppose the upside is that for a relatively small outlay the UK gets its hands on some advanced technologies albeit the code difficulties might take some cracking. Elements will be built in the UK so it could be a win/win or at least win/draw. We use US built Trident for our deterrent and most of our precision weapons will rely on US run GPS networks. There is a case for independence of systems but we or our European allies may not be willing to pay and Its debateable who is our most reliable ally.

Perhaps the stealth sell by date is approaching, hence the US has been prepared to cash in on something that 20 years ago was one of its biggest military secrets? Maybe radar and infrared advances will make the stealth advantages negligable. From LM point of view it would be an industrial coup, make the western world fly your jet even if its over hyped.

Lets just hope the UK defence companies have a plan B.
 

BKNO

Banned Member
Dave H Perhaps the stealth sell by date is approaching, hence the US has been prepared to cash in on something that 20 years ago was one of its biggest military secrets? Maybe radar and infrared advances will make the stealth advantages negligable.
It would perhaps be more apropriate to say that the Optronic technologies are going some way to level things-out:

Supercruise as designed into F-22 is PART INTEGRAL of the stealth conceipt remember and Rafale/Typhoon still await engines capable of reducing the gap in cruising speed with the Raptor....


Dave H From LM point of view it would be an industrial coup, make the western world fly your jet even if its over hyped.
Commercial or Industrial, thisis exactly how i qualify F-35 a coup.

Infortunatly if i called F-16 a design coup de Genie 30 years ago i cant say this about F-35 sorry...


Dave H Lets just hope the UK defence companies have a plan B.
True that, but even so it is not going to help if your politicians doesn't and Hoon by signing to the F-35 programme didn't help in the long term.

Where to find theRafale GIE PDFs

http://new.isoshop.com/dae/dae/gauche/sponsors/sponsor_rafale/index.htm
 
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Falstaff

New Member
Mon ami francais,

you're frequently saying that the development path for the Rafale is safe and somewhat worked out. Would you mind telling us what the path will look like over the next 20 years or so?

And is there a retractable aerial refuelling probe included?
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Mon ami francais,

you're frequently saying that the development path for the Rafale is safe and somewhat worked out. Would you mind telling us what the path will look like over the next 20 years or so?

And is there a retractable aerial refuelling probe included?
as far as i reliesed the fixed refueling probe was a doctrinal and design French oddity and the fixed refueling probe will be their for the life of the raf
 

BKNO

Banned Member
Falstaff you're frequently saying that the development path for the Rafale is safe and somewhat worked out. Would you mind telling us what the path will look like over the next 20 years or so?
Difficult to assume what it would be at this time...

For the time being...

France Slows Deliveries, Adds AESA Radar to Rafale

By PIERRE TRAN, PARIS


French industry, which has quietly agreed to stretch out the Rafale program, has received an order worth an estimated 400 million euros ($519 million) to develop an active electronically scanned array radar (AESA) to boost the combat jet’s export prospects, defense executives said.
No announcement has been made on the development contract.
France’s procurement office, the Délégation Générale pour l’Armement (DGA), previously planned to delay delivery of eight of 59 Rafale aircraft on order and divert the money to pay for work on the new radar.
“I confirm there is a stretch-out of the program,” said a spokesman for Rafale prime contractor Dassault Aviation.
The stretch-out concerns the 59 aircraft ordered in September 2004 for 3 billion euros. Details of the new delivery schedule were not available.
A spokeswoman for Thales’ aerospace division said the company on Oct. 6 signed a contract with the DGA to develop the new-generation radar, aimed at making the Rafale more competitive in export markets.
“The contract has been notified and is in effect,” she said.
Thales is responsible for development and integration of the RBE 2 radar, working alongside Dassault Aviation. The radar work is part of the “Roadmap Rafale” deal agreed between industry and government.
Extending the timetable for deliveries of the 59 aircraft would allow industry to pay for the radar work within the total contract value. The government, therefore, is not funding the radar development directly and is buying a complete plane, with a modern radar system, a defense source said.
Deliveries of the Rafale equipped with the AESA radar would begin in 2011 or 2012.
Absence of a phased array radar is said to have been one of the reasons Dassault lost to the Boeing F-15 in Singapore’s fighter competition. The new system would boost the Rafale’s radar range, detect missile launches and be compatible with fire-control systems for future air-to-air missiles, Thales said.
France has ordered 120 Rafales of a total planned purchase of 294. The DGA estimates the flyaway price of a Rafale at 50 million euros. •

@harryriedl Like the OSF; the exact term is "Mission Specific".
 
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BKNO

Banned Member
Dave H The US might lag (im not sure two generations is accurate, could you explain what would be one behind for a non techy?)
Since the early 90s, France have been looking at solutions designed to compensate for the sensor gap represented by the developement of US AESA/LPIs.

One of the aspect of the optronic systems is that they are comparatively cheaper and easier to develop and produce than GaAs radars such as that the US developed.

This is primarily a technologic and industrial issue and the reason behind the late appearence of AESA radars in europe although in the form of optimised GaAS modules comparible to the latest US technologies.

Europe have skipped the 4 previous GaAs technology generation for reasons of cost at least at production levels (They were too expensive to produce).

But this havent been so in the Optronic dpt, first a little bit of history:

In Kosovo, the US Apaches were struggling with their IR/Optronic systems with low performances in european weather conditions, low detection capabilties, low IR navigational capabilties and high error and false alarm rates of their IR missile approach warning systems all due to bad weaher conditions etc.

It was also true in the case of laser designation pods, France was the country with the highest kill rate of all the coalition (including the US) with 79% of success, BOTH MN with their SEMS and AdA were in front of everyone else as to the way they could use their laser guided weapons.

Since all NATO aircraft were submited to the same rules of engagement (altitude/Targets ID etc) it was obvious that pod performances became an issue as many attack had to be aborted and amunitions lost to laser breaks or/and loss of sight due to weather conditions.

This was partly due to the performances of the pods used by all NATO countries and encouraged France to research further and increase the amount of R&D dedicated to IR/UV/Optronic systems.

French aircarfts were also the best individually protected of all the coalition aircrafts with missile warning detectors (SAMIR) fitted to all jets A2A pylons, the only aircraft lost in this region, a Mirage 2000 N in Bosnia was reported as been for cause of engine failure when the crew was later recovered.

Despite the weather, the missile approach detector and associated defense system actually worked well and the MANPAD launched at it was usccessfuly decoyed, the engine died on the pilot when full military power was applied...

The goal for France was from then on to reduce the weather dependency of these systems as the major drawback of IR is performance degradation in bad weather conditions, which is a bummer when you base your defense on such a system (F-35 DAS).

There was a multiple need for this, TRIGAT Missile, AASM, new generation IR AAMs, Tiger totaly passive systems, PGMs used in greater number and the clear need fr more cost effective results, Optronics for ground and sea based defense SAMS, ground troops googles, MBT IR etc, so the industry investments could be recovered over a wider spectrum of specific systems.

OSF was the FIRST Western system to use 3-5mn bands as early as 1999, contract was passed to Thomson for the OSF in 1991 there was already a clear path to IR weather dependency reduction.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-on-track.html

3-5mn bands = This wavelength provides "considerably better detection capability in humid conditions",

The 3-5mn were already being experimented with in laboratory conditions and research labs set up for some time and there have been a serie of other technology WORLD FIRST in French labs since in BOTH IR and GaN technologies.

As a result, with 1990's technology an OSF have far greater ranges in bad weather than a SNIPER and have been in constant developement since its first flight in 1999.

But it alredy is considered as being obsolescent in terms of cost/performances due to the age of its technologies and the resulting obsolescence problems.

During a test flight, a journalists reported OSF camera (near-IR) to be capable of locking on a Transall (low IR signature) beyhond MICA engagement range through a thin layer of cloud, the IRST wasn't mounted on this aircraft.

Considering the aircrafts speeds at the time that's <> 60 km at least.

The French gouvernement, advised by the procurement agency (DGA) decided to order only 37 OSFs and negotiated with the industrials the developement of an "OSF NG" as part of the roadmap including new generation of missile approach detectors with related technologies.

They will be developed with the technologies which have been maturing in labs for the past few years as well as those emerging and will go further to fill the capabiltiy gap between AESA radars and Optronic systems.

The US DoD have so far done little in the field of optronics, there have been a clear tendency for US manufacturers to associate with Israelis manufacturers to compensate for this but as a matter of FACT they are still not there as even the Israelis requierements were lower than that of the europeans for the simple reason that bad weather is a lot more common in Europe.

Here, one of my ARCHIVES from the old Thales website:

Defence Optronic Systems: Air: Air to Ground targetting
DAMOCLES
High performance, day/night, 3-5 µm multi-function targeting pod

Multi-function
Compatible with existing & future weapons systems
High performance/long stand-off range
Eye-safe laser range-finding system
Operational in all weather conditions/all theatres
Modular design for future upgrade incorporation
Selected by French Air Force
Main features

Day-night visual airborne target identification
Characteristics

NOTE: In this extract, the quoteS "Operational in all weather conditions/all theatres" AND "Day-night visual airborne target identification
Characteristics".

To do the same jobs, the future F/A-18/E/F will need TWO different pods, (Raytheon ATFLIR + IRST) the one dedicated to A2A been only talked about now.
DATE:17/04/07
SOURCE:Flight International
Super Hornet set to get air-to-air boost from USN
By Graham Warwick

The only difference is that it might be capable of cueing AIM-9Xs and that there is no reference stating that Damocles can do it althought it might be possible with sensor fusion (and a HMDS).

It will also use midwaves 3-5 µm Spectral band but is only on par with the existing AIDA pod from Thales specifically designed for aircraft with no OSF/IRSTs such as the Mirage 2000...

A few newbies from Europe and France:

World first: Developement and Production of high power/low working temperature GaN components (2006) future application = Low Band X AESAs.

World first: Infrared seekers, MADRID, a DGA issued Request for Proposals (RFP) for a low cost, anti-surface Rigid Imaging Infrared Seeker demonstrator with a strap-down architecture and new generation (SOFRADIR) IR detectors.

Breakthrough = Emergence of a large format infrared detector that helped to simplify the homing head line-of-sight system.

World first: Caladiom Camera.

An "Artificial" retina, CMOS programmable, which each individual pixel posseses a 45 bits processor.

Miniaturised computing power, integrated in each pixel, at the closest to the photons capture point is a world FIRST and a major technologic breakthrough.

Main advantages are: Movement detection, no need to produce an image for alert, extremly high sensitivity for low power consuption (<1.8W).

Electronic cortex piloting the retina carry over high-level treatments of situational analysis and only transmit alert as well as synthetic issues of these analysis.

The technology demonstrator, issued from bolométric technology have been succesfuly tested and R&D programme extended to carry the technology to IR Imagery, the goal being to create an IR Caladiom.

As yo can see France is clearly in the lead here...
 

Rich

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #111
I would rather say "Europe is a leader in Optronics" and not just France. Its always been my understanding that we all have historically used the same optronic targeting pods, the litening series, and that the Rafale is using the same one as the other two Euro-canards, the Litening-lll.

Maybe someone can update me on this, and the status of the F-35 pod, which is made here correct? Or is the F-35 also going to be built with the Litening-lll ?

Thank you.
 

BKNO

Banned Member
Rich I would rather say "Europe is a leader in Optronics" and not just France.
WRONG a serie of technologic world first from the 90 to today and best war performances are there for evidence.

Rich Its always been my understanding that we all have historically used the same optronic targeting pods, the litening series, and that the Rafale is using the same one as the other two Euro-canards, the Litening-lll.
It's also a common knowledge by now that you keep yourself off the loop.

There is and WAS NO Foreign pods used in French service.

ATLIS, PDLTC, PDLTC-S, Damocles are that used by the French forces.

Rich Maybe someone can update me on this, and the status of the F-35 pod, which is made here correct? Or is the F-35 also going to be built with the Litening-lll ?
EOTS is a derivative of SNIPER with only ONE Channel for TWO functions.

Please inform yourself before posting W.H.A.T.E.V.E.R. Thank you.

@ Falstaff...

In prelude to your expected Typhee vs Rafy topic (NOT this one topic please).

From a UK MoD DRA studie on EAP delta canard configuration from 1993.

Very interesting points:

T/C ratio variates from 0.6 to 0.1 (Main wing).

Gains in LIFT are minimal.

At 30* deflection the canards have a NEGATIVE impact on LIFT.

Compare with what that of the Rafale are doing to its airflow but this is another story and i reserve it for the future topic no???:D
 

OPIT

New Member
I would rather say "Europe is a leader in Optronics" and not just France. Its always been my understanding that we all have historically used the same optronic targeting pods, the litening series, and that the Rafale is using the same one as the other two Euro-canards, the Litening-lll.
Rafale will use the Damocles pod, which is the successor of the PDL-CTS (Mirage 2000D), itself a successor of the ATLIS pod used on Jaguar. All of them built by Thomson CSF (now Thales).
 

BKNO

Banned Member
Thank YOU dear sir!!!

How is the AdA going these days???

I think you'll be enjoying this...
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6248&page=5

Comme tu peut le constater comme tout mechant garcon qui se respecte je leur fait tout plein de miseres...

This one is pas triste either. where it is question of a so called Dr. Wolfgang Herbst of Messerschmitt-Bolkow-Blohm (MBB), TKF-90, the Rockwell SNAKE Program, the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency and X-31.... Whooooooch!!! Enjoy...
http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Partners/X_31.html
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Comme tu peut le constater comme tout mechant garcon qui se respecte je leur fait tout plein de miseres...
Confirming the the stereotype of the rude and arrogant French I see.

No wonder fewer and fewer posters are attracted to your flame bait and filibustering.

I would generally advise you to stop the unnecessary and rude remarks, and stay with the idea you put forward elsewhere; to share your knowledge.
 

BKNO

Banned Member
Grand Danois Confirming the the stereotype of the rude and arrogant French I see.
I hope you have been as sarky as i was, although clearly you have missed something and made an assumtion here...

Since other some guys are trying to make me look such a pain in the back in the forum where Opit is actually writing most of its posts i was being sarky...

Grand Danois No wonder fewer and fewer posters are attracted to your flame bait and filibustering.
You should learn to discernate flaming and posting informative stuff, i guess you're use to flamers since there are a few good one over here.

Grand Danois I would generally advise you to stop the unnecessary and rude remarks, and stay with the idea you put forward elsewhere; to share your knowledge.
What i find offenseive are people spending more time insulting other's intelligence than doing their home work and inform the rest of us.

It is much easier to "take on the poster" than the subject and left up to YOU to know which to do for yourself.

Up to now you have shown yourself capable of a wiser choice, i guess you're runing out of arguments and doesn't know how to bail yourself out, this wasn't the good move though...

For the time being:
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7148/subsupervz3.jpg

I know my post are long and sometime difficult to read but they are generally informed.

This pic gives you a clear definition of subsonic and supersonic, without any mention of the transonic regime, for the very reasons i have put forward previously.

The doc have been compilated by Wayne M.Olson, Aircraft Performance Engineer for the technical Information Handbook (Sept 2000/updated June 2003) In behalve of the Air Force flight Test Center at Edward AFB.

This are the standards i was grown with by a test-pilot graduated from Edward with passed 2000 flight hours on anything flying from Spitifre, F-84 to and Mig 21s Mirage 4000 .

To summerise you were WRONG, are only looking for a way out with an opportunity based on some event you dont comprehend because you dont have all the datas.

My advice, keep your situation awarness high before engaging.

I think this settles the argument, peacefully but for everyone information here, i'm not in the buziness of desinforming people or taking them for granted, neither am i a pacifist and ready to bow to anyone... Have a nice day.

>>>>>

- May 2006 to early 2008: Qualification of Rafale F3 standard - 400 test flights planned
- June 2007: First Exocet firing trial from Rafale (will be launched from Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier)
- Mid-2007: First production AASM GPS-guided bombs available (already cleared on Rafale F2)
- Mid-2008: Entry into service of Rafale F3. New stores include: RECO-NG reconnaissance pod, Exocet anti-ship missile, ASMP-A nuclear missile. Avionics updates include: improved terrain-following radar modes and Spectra self-defense suite
- Late 2008/early 2009: qualification of Damocles laser designation pod
- Early 2009: clearance for GBU-24 Paveway III 2000lb bomb
- 2009: Start of deliveries of Rafale F3 standard aircraft for Navy
- End of 2009: all Rafale F2 upgraded to F3 standard
- 2010: First ASMP-A equipped, nuclear deterrance squadron operational
- 2012: First delivery of Rafale F4 standard with AESA radar, improved OSF optronics system and missile approach warning system
 
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Grand Danois

Entertainer
I hope you have been as sarky as i was, although clearly you have missed something and made an assumtion here...
Actually, this was based on more than this single post alone. I don't mind an argument, but I have distaste of me and others being told to "inform myself" so very often.

What i find offenseive are people spending more time insulting other's intelligence than doing their home work and inform the rest of us.
Legitimising what?

It is much easier to "take on the poster" than the subject and left up to YOU to know which to do for yourself.

Up to now you have shown yourself capable of a wiser choice, i guess you're runing out of arguments and doesn't know how to bail yourself out, this wasn't the good move though...
No. I am adressing a certain attitude you've been displaying all along.

For the time being:
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7148/subsupervz3.jpg

I know my post are long and sometime difficult to read but they are generally informed.

This pic gives you a clear definition of subsonic and supersonic, without any mention of the transonic regime, for the very reasons i have put forward previously.

The doc have been compilated by Wayne M.Olson, Aircraft Performance Engineer for the technical Information Handbook (Sept 2000/updated June 2003) In behalve of the Air Force flight Test Center at Edward AFB.

This are the standards i was grown with by a test-pilot graduated from Edward with passed 2000 flight hours on anything flying from Spitifre, F-84 to and Mig 21s Mirage 4000 .
Two things.

1) You posted the definition of the metric of airspeed and Mach. Not supercruise (you didn't address supercruise), however

2) if you ask a Dryden engineer, he will most certainly agree to your definition of supercruise.

But yet there is no agreed upon definition of supercruise.

The definition of supercruise

Engineers have always considered supercruise to mean flying
supersonically -- that is with all airflow around the airframe
supersonic (subsonic = no supersonic airflow, transsonic =
some airflow supersonic; So different aircraft goes supersonic
at different speeds, all faster than Mach 1, typically around
Mach 1.3) -- without the use of afterburner.
There is no clear agreement whether afterburner can be used
to accellerate through the transsonic region or not, but it doesn't
seem unreasonable to allow it, since the definition is about
the cruise phase.

In more recent times some people have started to use another
definition, one meaning anything faster than Mach 1 without afterburner,
usually as to include some aircraft in the very small group of
supercruisers.

Supercruising aircraft

Using the strict definition the supercruisers include
Concorde and F-22.
If one includes anything faster than Mach 1 the list becomes
longer with English Electric Lightning (M 1.2), Lockheed F-104A
with J79-19 engine (M 1.05 at altitude), probably Draken,
F/A-18C/D Hornet with F404-402 engines, F-15E Eagle with CFTs
and LANTIRN either -220 or -229 engines (with the -229 engines
it's reported to have accelerated to M 1.15 from subsonic and
from supersonic speeds with afterburner slowed down to M 1.3
when the afterburner was turned off), Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon,
Rafale and likely others.
This is of course depending on altitude, weights and external
loads and exact numbers are usually classified.

http://www.canit.se/~griffon/aviation/faq/ramfaq3.txt
I'd add that I believe both the EF and The Rafale to agree with the 'strict' definition of supercruise. I'm not on an aircraft bashing exercise.

Super-Cruise. Two words. One implying undefined supersonic speed, the other implying Cruise

I know it is Wiki, but here:

Cruise (flight)

Cruise is the level portion of aircraft travel where flight is most fuel efficient. It occurs between ascent and descent phases and is usually the majority of a journey.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_(flight)

Since you have the experience, you could provide som more accurate explanations on what "cruise" means in aviation terms?

And depending on design of the aircraft cruise sets in at variable airspeeds.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/area-rule/transonic-drag.jpg

So you do not necessarily supercruise just because you pass Mach 1. Although from a pure arbitrary view, you do if it is enough to pass Mach 1 on dry thrust. Your definition does not take fuel effiency into account, which is what gives meaning to cruise.

To summerise you were WRONG, are only looking for a way out with an opportunity based on some event you dont comprehend because you dont have all the datas.

My advice, keep your situation awarness high before engaging.

I think this settles the argument, peacefully but for everyone information here, i'm not in the buziness of desinforming people or taking them for granted, neither am i a pacifist and ready to bow to anyone... Have a nice day.
No. I had disengaged, as I had put my case forward and had no further to say and nothing you posted contradicted this. What will settle this for me is info on what speeds jets supercruise with under operational conditions.

Have a nice day
;)
 
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BKNO

Banned Member
Grand Danois Actually, this was based on more than this single post alone. I don't mind an argument, but I have distaste of me and others being told to "inform myself" so very often.
Actually i WILL do it ONCE again for your own stake if you dont mind and remind YOU of some:

I have been submited to constant personal attacks by some guys from my first words in this forum and have atempted to keep the level of agressiveness of my replies as LOW as possible.

YOU are picky for the simple reason that like the others you're getting personal for lack of arguments and the one you brought forward just now are certainly not making your case...

I call this tactic "Take-on the poster-Not the subject". = A waste of forum space...

Comparing informations you dig from wilkipedia to that from NASA/Dryden, the USAF flight-Test center and some other experts is just a little bit arrogant to say the least.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_(flight)
You're JOCKING no??? I'ts as good as the Disney forum debating on Russian politics...

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...sonic-drag.jpg
THIS sort of graphs is clerady DEFINED as an ARBITRARY by Dryden.

There IS a huge gap between grand public publication (wikipedia is a vulgarisation website NOT a specialised Aerospacial authority) and the REAL stuff, go to a flying school and discover the joys of international standards for yourself, but for the stake of intellectual honnesty and less informed posters, dont deny these to those who know about them as a basis for your arguments; they dont stick...

Grand Danois Super-Cruise. Two words. One implying undefined supersonic speed, the other implying Cruise
"Undefined" is NOT really what the speed of sound IS.

Undefined means NOT known/unquantified, Mach 1.0 IS a known value and quantified by the square root of the temperature.

Grand Danois So you do not necessarily supercruise just because you pass Mach 1.
You DO supercruise when you have enough THRUST to beat the DRAG in DRY power in a SUSTAINED way at more than the SPEED of SOUND.

Those are THE constants, whatever airflow speed around your airframe even it some of it is still subsonic (and its bound to happen even while you supercruise), the equation here is:

THRUST (DRY) vs DRAG over Mach (1.0).

Your specific transonic region have little to do with this when it comes to that if you have the necessary thrust to sustain a speed above M 1.0 in DRY power.

F-22 supercritical profiles drags MORE than that of Rafale, its SWEEP angle defines a lower Critical Mach, its transonic region is most likely to be wider; does this defines it a non supercruising it it stabelises at M 1.15 at 65% engine output and still is in its specific transonic region aty this speed???

Grand Danois Since you have the experience, you could provide som more accurate explanations on what "cruise" means in aviation terms?
Depends on engines/intakes specifics but as a thumb rule, in Rafale case it would be 89% DRY been defined as "Typical" cruising speed and M 0.82 in STRIKE configuration.

This means 3 X 2.000 L 4 X AAMs, ^ X AASM/LGBs or 2 X SCALPs.

http://img99.imageshack.us/img99/6866/subsuperio2.jpg
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/489/transonicdragedwardsml1.jpg
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/2808/transonicdragedwards2ym9.jpg
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/531/transonicdragedwards3ho9.jpg
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/7543/transonicdragedwards4rk8.jpg
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/73/usstandardatmospherexw1.jpg

Back to aerodynamics.

As one can see, Subsonic and Supersonic regimes are defined by the speed of sound.
http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/7148/subsupervz3.jpg
Mach numbers less than 1 are refered toa SUBSONIC and those greater than 1 are SUPPERSONIC.

THIS is the U.S. Flight-Test Center at Edwards AFB definition, not Wilki's and is DEFINED Dryden/NASA standard appyable to ALL US ansd non US aircrafts....

Transonic regime is only an arbitrary related to a particular aircraft design.

To write these datas, the choise of the writer was to construct a FICTIONAL DRAG model which approximates that of a F-16.

This model transonic region is deifned by its OWN aerodynamic characteristics and does NOT apply to all aircrafts.

Within the transonic zone, subsonic speed is defined by the speed of sound and this particular supersonic REGIME at the speed at which ALL airflow over the airframe surface became supersonic.

The transonic zone itself would start from M 1.0 and end at M 1.1 which is different to the definition i have previously given, based on the appearence of compressibility phenomenons.

Reasons for this difference are the SOURCES:

The author of these latest docs uses Everett Dunlap's Theory of the mesurement and Standardisation of In-Flight Performance of Aircraft as well as the USAF Test Pilot Scgool's (TPS) Aircraft Performance manual.

This is the U.S standard for test-flying not generalities.

Some other writers also have been bringing their expertises for example:

John Hicks from NASA, Dryden Flight Research Center.

Richard Colgren of Lockheed-Martin Skunk Works. etc etc

The Bibliography contain 44 eminent names.

For computational standard, thew U.S. Standard Atmosphere (1976) was used.

My previous source is an ouvrage used in Britian by pupill of different flight and engineering schools.

Mechanics of Flight by A. Kermode.

Edition: Longman Scientific & Technical. 1987.

It is aimed at bringing more general informations for educational purposes and is not as detailed but still very handly.

I hope this input helps those with an interest in the matter.
 
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Rich

Member
  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
  • #119
WRONG a serie of technologic world first from the 90 to today and best war performances are there for evidence.
What war was that?

It's also a common knowledge by now that you keep yourself off the loop.
Please inform yourself before posting W.H.A.T.E.V.E.R. Thank you.
I really asked that question as a gentleman even tho I knew I was going to get a snide comment from this guy.

What i find offenseive are people spending more time insulting other's intelligence than doing their home work and inform the rest of us.
It is much easier to "take on the poster" than the subject and left up to YOU to know which to do for yourself.

Up to now you have shown yourself capable of a wiser choice, i guess you're runing out of arguments and doesn't know how to bail yourself out, this wasn't the good move though...
I was honestly trying to steer the conversation into a gentlemanly discussion. But I do listen to warnings from Moderators.

I know my post are long and sometime difficult to read but they are generally informed.
I dont think anyone actually reads all of them. And you do like to sneak in little inaccuracies and flamboyant over exaggerations. But you get away with them because very few actually read them.


I think this settles the argument, peacefully but for everyone information here, i'm not in the buziness of desinforming people or taking them for granted, neither am i a pacifist and ready to bow to anyone... Have a nice day.
You have been a rude, arrogant, know it all since you came on this forum. And now your calling a respected poster here a "boy". I think your time is short in this forum. BTW your spelling sucks.

I will SKIP the rest of your post and give YOU another advice if you think you're too good for these guys, then you musntloose time writing on such forums and go applying for a job at Dryden.

Here for your education, boy...
 

Grand Danois

Entertainer
Actually i WILL do it ONCE again for your own stake if you dont mind:

Comparing informations you dig from wilkipedia to that from NASA/Dryden, the USAF flight-Test center and some other experts is just a little bit arrogant to say the least.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_(flight)
You're JOCKING no??? I'ts as good as the Disney forum debating on Russian politics...
This is disingenous and a strawman. First of all, I caveated the use of Wiki. Second, I encouraged you to provide the aviation definition of "cruise." You chose not to do this, but went for the strawman instead.

Symptomatic.

Anyone have some input on what "cruise" means in the aviation industry?

The rest for later.
 
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