Royal New Zealand Navy Discussions and Updates

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Details of Canterbury's commissioning and arrival in New Zealand are at the link below.

Basics are: Acceptance 31 May
Commission: 12 June
Arrive Lyttleton 28 June for four days followed by a trip to Timaru, then to DNB.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0705/S00556.htm
Out of curiousity, does anyone here from NZ think they might manage a public visit and perhaps manage to take some snaps?

As for the first OPV, it will be good to see what it looks like once launched. I find I rather like the look of HMS Clyde, a River-class OPV(H) so hopefully it will appear similar.

-Cheers
 

Markus40

New Member
The survellience radar is a system that can multi track air and surface targets, or rather objects. I dont believe that the OPV has any form of surface detection system on board despite maybe a new navigation system which of course is completely different.

The OPV has a patrol and interdiction role both with the RNZN and with the Department of Customs and Fisheries. In saying that my question is how can the OPV guide itself to trawlers without having a capability of being able to know whether they are fishing illegally or even to know they are even there for that reason. So its foolish in my opinion to consider a vessel such as the OPV not have a proper radar to search for illegal fishing. No doubt they will be used for patrol around some of the semi hotspots like fiji and the Solomans not to mention ET and to not have the defensive measures as i have put forward is wasting the time of the Navy and the Governments resources.

Loading vessels like the OPV with simple defensive measures is a prudent and logical way of making the naval asset like the OPV safer to operate in any environment and it will need it if it is going to go futher than NZ territorrial waters. To suggest that adding survelllience radar to a Naval ship is like turning them into "mini frigates" is really nonsense as they are far from the the role and design of one in the first place.


If the primary role for the OPV's is domestic EEZ patrol then I don't see that they have an immediate requirement for a high powered Air search radar, more important to have good surface detection systems which I beleive they have, not alot of point in being able to detect an airborne threat hundreds of km out if you don't have any means to defeat such a threat. Loading such a vessel up with such systems starts to turn them into "mini-frigates" which they were never intended to be.
 

Markus40

New Member
The survellience radar is a system that can multi track air and surface targets, or rather objects. I dont believe that the OPV has any form of surface detection system on board despite maybe a new navigation system which of course is completely different.

The OPV has a patrol and interdiction role both with the RNZN and with the Department of Customs and Fisheries. In saying that my question is how can the OPV guide itself to trawlers without having a capability of being able to know whether they are fishing illegally or even to know they are even there for that reason. So its foolish in my opinion to consider a vessel such as the OPV not have a proper radar to search for illegal fishing. No doubt they will be used for patrol around some of the semi hotspots like fiji and the Solomans not to mention ET and to not have the defensive measures as i have put forward is wasting the time of the Navy and the Governments resources.

Loading vessels like the OPV with simple defensive measures is a prudent and logical way of making the naval asset like the OPV safer to operate in any environment and it will need it if it is going to go futher than NZ territorrial waters. To suggest that adding survelllience radar to a Naval ship is like turning them into "mini frigates" is really nonsense as they are far from the the role and design of one in the first place.




Good point. We have to keep reminding ourselves what the primary role of these vessels is and also of the need to keep costs down by installing equipment that is appropriate for the task.

Cheers
 

Markus40

New Member
The OPV is a cheaper version of a corvette. Theres no doubt about that. Therefore it makes complete sense and logic to give it the defensive options it needs should this arise. I have attached my comments on this issue:

The survellience radar is a system that can multi track air and surface targets, or rather objects. I dont believe that the OPV has any form of surface detection system on board despite maybe a new navigation system which of course is completely different.

The OPV has a patrol and interdiction role both with the RNZN and with the Department of Customs and Fisheries. In saying that my question is how can the OPV guide itself to trawlers without having a capability of being able to know whether they are fishing illegally or even to know they are even there for that reason. So its foolish in my opinion to consider a vessel such as the OPV not have a proper radar to search for illegal fishing. No doubt they will be used for patrol around some of the semi hotspots like fiji and the Solomans not to mention ET and to not have the defensive measures as i have put forward is wasting the time of the Navy and the Governments resources.

Loading vessels like the OPV with simple defensive measures is a prudent and logical way of making the naval asset like the OPV safer to operate in any environment and it will need it if it is going to go futher than NZ territorrial waters. To suggest that adding survelllience radar to a Naval ship is like turning them into "mini frigates" is really nonsense as they are far from the the role and design of one in the first place.



Indeed, the three main characteristics that differentiate an OPV from a FS (corvette) are the weapons loadout, sensor/electronic systems and price. The first two the corvette is superior, for pricing though, an OPV is typically a fraction of the cost for a similarly sized corvette. And given the difference in kit the vessels are used differently, or more properly, since there different tasks, the ships are equipped appropriate to their respective tasks.

-Cheers
 

Markus40

New Member
A search/survellience radar is what im talking about with the range given in my previous post. Im interested in the range of the New Falklands Patrol vessel actually, but i would imagine this to be around 300Km.

The survellience radar is a system that can multi track air and surface targets, or rather objects. I dont believe that the OPV has any form of surface detection system on board despite maybe a new navigation system which of course is completely different.

The OPV has a patrol and interdiction role both with the RNZN and with the Department of Customs and Fisheries. In saying that my question is how can the OPV guide itself to trawlers without having a capability of being able to know whether they are fishing illegally or even to know they are even there for that reason. So its foolish in my opinion to consider a vessel such as the OPV not have a proper radar to search for illegal fishing. No doubt they will be used for patrol around some of the semi hotspots like fiji and the Solomans not to mention ET and to not have the defensive measures as i have put forward is wasting the time of the Navy and the Governments resources.

Loading vessels like the OPV with simple defensive measures is a prudent and logical way of making the naval asset like the OPV safer to operate in any environment and it will need it if it is going to go futher than NZ territorrial waters. To suggest that adding survelllience radar to a Naval ship is like turning them into "mini frigates" is really nonsense as they are far from the the role and design of one in the first place.




I'd agree that fitting a high powered Air Radar is not suitable for an OPV. I would consider something like the Air / Surface search radar fitted to the new Falklands Patrol vessel suitable given that these vessels are likley to operate in the South Pacific.

As a side note the MRV, OPV and IPV all have a life expectancy of 25 years according a written parliamentary response earlier this year.
 

Sea Toby

New Member
There is no need for a powerful air search radar without a SAM system aboard. Only a weak surface search navigational radar is needed by an OPV, their range is sufficient. OPVs don't have the capability to close a trawler 200 nautical miles away.

The Itallians have built corvettes recently. Corvettes are small warships. These corvettes cost as much as the MRV Canterbury, over US $100 million each. The NZ OPVs cost less than US $40 million each, similar to the Irish OPVs. Mini frigates may have been the wrong analogy, the better word would have been corvettes.
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
A search/survellience radar is what im talking about with the range given in my previous post. Im interested in the range of the New Falklands Patrol vessel actually, but i would imagine this to be around 300Km.

The survellience radar is a system that can multi track air and surface targets, or rather objects. I dont believe that the OPV has any form of surface detection system on board despite maybe a new navigation system which of course is completely different.

The OPV has a patrol and interdiction role both with the RNZN and with the Department of Customs and Fisheries. In saying that my question is how can the OPV guide itself to trawlers without having a capability of being able to know whether they are fishing illegally or even to know they are even there for that reason. So its foolish in my opinion to consider a vessel such as the OPV not have a proper radar to search for illegal fishing. No doubt they will be used for patrol around some of the semi hotspots like fiji and the Solomans not to mention ET and to not have the defensive measures as i have put forward is wasting the time of the Navy and the Governments resources.

Loading vessels like the OPV with simple defensive measures is a prudent and logical way of making the naval asset like the OPV safer to operate in any environment and it will need it if it is going to go futher than NZ territorrial waters. To suggest that adding survelllience radar to a Naval ship is like turning them into "mini frigates" is really nonsense as they are far from the the role and design of one in the first place.
The problem with mounting radars like you're describing (300km range, etc.) is that such radars are air search radars. Surface search radars have much shorter range due to the limits imposed by the horizon, where the curvature of the earth will limit the range at which a surface target can be detected. That limit is related to the height of the radar array on OPV as well as the height of the vessel being detected. That's part of the reason why MPA are so useful, the radar array of an MPA will have an altitude measured in thousands of metres, with a correspondingly large radar horizon, as opposed to the tens of metres of a surface ship's radar array.

As for the differences between corvette and OPV cont'd:

In addition to the usually greater number of radars aboard a corvette, there is an increased need for electronics to manage the information coming from the radars, to provide, targeting, tracking info for aircraft, ships, etc. A good example to look at would be the USCG vessels. Some of them are now beginning to approach the size of frigates in the ~3,000 ton range, but with considerably less armament. However, they can't be significantly upgraded (easily at least) with more weapons and sensors, because the onboard electronics and electricity generating plant couldn't support the additions. This was designed in, because in the role given the USCG vessels, it isn't needed. For an OPV, which would primarily conduct law enforcement-type patrols, or Showing the Flag missions (for NZ) such a radar/electronics suite isn't needed. The vessel wouldn't be used as a warship, since that isn't what it is.

Also, regarding navigation radars, properly tuned an I-band radar (AFAIK usual band for nav radars) can also be used for surface search.

As for improving the self-defence abilities of the OPV... aside from perhaps mounting mini-Typhoons to cover the port, starboard and aft quarters of the vessel not much else would be useful. Manpads would be of little use, since if there would be an aircraft attacking the OPV, it's likely to be using a weapon with greater range than the ~8km range of most manpads. Not to mention, there aren't very many countries in the S Pacific where NZ is likely to send an OPV that has the equipment needed to carry out an airstrike.

-Cheers
 

Lucasnz

Super Moderator
Staff member
Verified Defense Pro
The problem with mounting radars like you're describing (300km range, etc.) is that such radars are air search radars.
Yes but the Air Radar on the Falklands Patrol Vessel and selected for the Danish Thetis Class has an instrumented range of 100nm for Air Search operating in X-Band

For an OPV, which would primarily conduct law enforcement-type patrols, or Showing the Flag missions (for NZ) such a radar/electronics suite isn't needed. The vessel wouldn't be used as a warship, since that isn't what it is.
I would agree if NZ had more than two surface combatants but with such a limited combat capability NZ is going to be forced to use them in a low level enivorment within the South Pacific, especially once the ANZAC's start refitting. Also the OPV's are suppose to be capable of landing special forces and the orginal specs called for a medium calibre guns suggest NZ does have some military role in mind for these vessels.


As for improving the self-defence abilities of the OPV... aside from perhaps mounting mini-Typhoons to cover the port, starboard and aft quarters of the vessel not much else would be useful. Manpads would be of little use, since if there would be an aircraft attacking the OPV, it's likely to be using a weapon with greater range than the ~8km range of most manpads. Not to mention, there aren't very many countries in the S Pacific where NZ is likely to send an OPV that has the equipment needed to carry out an airstrike.
If a limited military role is envisioned, then based on the manufactuers claims a 57mm gun should be able to meet virtually all the threats that an OPV might face in the South Pacific. Personally I perfer the 76mm cause you can reload while firing - But we've had that discussion.

Manpads would be nice, but you're right for South Pacific ops that there aren't many countries to justify the outfit. Any money for Manpads would be better spent fitting a proper Air Launched Weapons magazine.
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
Yes but the Air Radar on the Falklands Patrol Vessel and selected for the Danish Thetis Class has an instrumented range of 100nm for Air Search operating in X-Band
I have no issue with the Protector-class OPVs being equipped with an air search radar. Just that for it's primary mission of patroling around NZ, a dedicated long-range air search radar isn't needed IMV. What I would prefer would be a dual air/surface search radar that will be used, mostly, for sea search. As for the radar bands... I was going from memory that most nav radars use I-band, and that one class of vessel had used an I-band for both nav and search purposes.

I would agree if NZ had more than two surface combatants but with such a limited combat capability NZ is going to be forced to use them in a low level enivorment within the South Pacific, especially once the ANZAC's start refitting. Also the OPV's are suppose to be capable of landing special forces and the orginal specs called for a medium calibre guns suggest NZ does have some military role in mind for these vessels.
and

If a limited military role is envisioned, then based on the manufactuers claims a 57mm gun should be able to meet virtually all the threats that an OPV might face in the South Pacific. Personally I perfer the 76mm cause you can reload while firing - But we've had that discussion.

Manpads would be nice, but you're right for South Pacific ops that there aren't many countries to justify the outfit. Any money for Manpads would be better spent fitting a proper Air Launched Weapons magazine.
I agree, a 57mm or even better, a 76mm (an ex-RAN gun from one of the Adelaides perhaps?) would make the the OPVs more useful. My only concern would about such a fitting would be:
1. Is the design sufficiently stable to include such a modification?
2. Is the onboard electronics and electrical plant sufficient to use it?

An interesting note from the RNZN site showing the Otago (OPV1) specs is that the Seasprite can be embarked, armed with torpedoes, depth charges and Maverick missiles. So perhaps there is some system in place to carry the helicopter munitions.

As for being able to deploy SAS personnel in the South Pacific, how much shipborne support would they need? The primary role an OPV would have in such an op would be to ferry the SAS and their personal kit and RHIBs to within range of whatever destination they were planning on landing at.

-Cheers
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
I agree, a 57mm or even better, a 76mm (an ex-RAN gun from one of the Adelaides perhaps?) would make the the OPVs more useful. My only concern would about such a fitting would be:
1. Is the design sufficiently stable to include such a modification?
2. Is the onboard electronics and electrical plant sufficient to use it?

-Cheers
The old Fremantle class patrol boats were capable of taking the 76mm gun (though they were never so fitted) so I would be surprised if the OPVs are not capable of doing so.

I don't know whether the RAN would be keen to get rid of these weapons out of their inventory at this stage (although they might be happy if NZ is the buyer).

An interesting note from the RNZN site showing the Otago (OPV1) specs is that the Seasprite can be embarked, armed with torpedoes, depth charges and Maverick missiles. So perhaps there is some system in place to carry the helicopter munitions.
It is very pleasing to see that the full range of weapons is mentioned in relation to a Seasprite embarked on an OPV.

As for being able to deploy SAS personnel in the South Pacific, how much shipborne support would they need? The primary role an OPV would have in such an op would be to ferry the SAS and their personal kit and RHIBs to within range of whatever destination they were planning on landing at.
I think that a medium gun of at least 57mm may prove handy to cover troops ashore, especially if an Anzac is unavailable. A detachment of SAS troops may not need any more support than what you have mentioned but NGS would not go astray, especially if things go wrong.

I also think a medium gun would provide a bit more 'clout' for gunboat diplomacy.

Cheers
 

Todjaeger

Potstirrer
The old Fremantle class patrol boats were capable of taking the 76mm gun (though they were never so fitted) so I would be surprised if the OPVs are not capable of doing so.
I was thinking more in terms of the stability dilemna facing the RAN with the Anzac frigates... The Irish OPVs which the NZ OPVs are based off do mount the OTOBreda (or is it now OTOMelara?) 76mm so it would fit, just a question of what effect the fitting would have on the ship performane. That and whether the subsystems would be allow the crew to make good use of the potential capabilities of the gun. It would be unfortunate if the gun were fitted, only to then find out that due to electrical limits, the fire control system is restricted in some way, or some other such problem. Not saying it would happen, just that it would be a concern. I'd also favor upgrading the radar if such a gun were mounted, since a 57mm or 76mm would allow a limited self-defence against air attacks.

I don't know whether the RAN would be keen to get rid of these weapons out of their inventory at this stage (although they might be happy if NZ is the buyer).
I was thinking of the OTOMelara 76mm/62 Compact guns from the Canberra and the Adelaide (once she decommissions), since I don't see them being reused and fitted to the Anzacs, and the Armidales can't carry them and the AWD is expected with a 127mm. By my count, that'd leave the RAN with 2 spare guns. Coincidentally just enough for the RNZN OPVs...

I think that a medium gun of at least 57mm may prove handy to cover troops ashore, especially if an Anzac is unavailable. A detachment of SAS troops may not need any more support than what you have mentioned but NGS would not go astray, especially if things go wrong.

I also think a medium gun would provide a bit more 'clout' for gunboat diplomacy.

Cheers
No argument about a 57mm or 76mm having more weight than a 25mm Bushmaster... As for NGS for an SAS op, I would think that their primary objective would be to slip in unnoticed, as opposed to calling in fire support. Particularly since IIRC the range of a 76mm is only around 16km unless ERGM are used. Still, it is true that it's better to have the ability and never use it, than to need the capability and not have it.

-Cheers
 

NZLAV

New Member
Defence Minister Phil Goff announced today that the first of the Navy’s seven new Project Protector Ships, the multi-role vessel Canterbury, will arrive in New Zealand on 28 June.

"There are three key steps prior to Canterbury beginning working life at the Devonport Naval Base; acceptance, commissioning and arrival in its homeport and the dates for these events can now be confirmed", said Mr Goff.

"The acceptance of the vessel by the Ministry of Defence from the shipbuilders and the subsequent hand over to the Royal New Zealand Navy will take place in Melbourne on Thursday May 31, when Defence Secretary John McKinnon will formally accept the ship from Tenix on behalf of the government."

On Tuesday June 12 the vessel will be commissioned into the Royal New Zealand Navy and formally become HMNZS Canterbury. The crew will then finalise preparations ahead of the ship’s departure from Melbourne for New Zealand.

HMNZS Canterbury will arrive at its home port of Lyttleton on Thursday 28 June. She will remain alongside for four days during which a variety of welcome events will be held, including an open day for the public and the ship’s company parading through Christchurch to accept the freedom of the city.

From Lyttleton HMNZS Canterbury will sail to Timaru for a brief visit between 4 – 6 July before heading to the Devonport Naval Base where it will be based.

"Planning for the arrival of HMNZS Canterbury is already underway and a detailed activity schedule for the port visits will be released by the Navy nearer to the date of each event", said Mr Goff."
 

Tasman

Ship Watcher
Verified Defense Pro
No argument about a 57mm or 76mm having more weight than a 25mm Bushmaster... As for NGS for an SAS op, I would think that their primary objective would be to slip in unnoticed, as opposed to calling in fire support. Particularly since IIRC the range of a 76mm is only around 16km unless ERGM are used. Still, it is true that it's better to have the ability and never use it, than to need the capability and not have it.

-Cheers
I was thinking of a situation where a SAS group may need to be extracted under fire (even the SAS can get in trouble sometimes! ;) ).

Cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
How many of the islands in the South Pacific ships and boats have larger gun mounts than the Bushmaster 25-mm? Why use a larger gun mount when you are already larger than your neighbors?

You will also notice that the US Coast Guard does not have 57-mm znc 775-mm gunmounts on all of their cutters either. Please notice the Bushmaster is quite large enough to destroy buildings within its range. Also notice that commerical hulls and naval hulls are much thinner today than in the past. How many trawlers do you know have 57-mm gunmounts aboard?
 
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Todjaeger

Potstirrer
How many of the islands in the South Pacific ships and boats have larger gun mounts than the Bushmaster 25-mm? Why use a larger gun mount when you are already larger than your neighbors?

You will also notice that the US Coast Guard does not have 57-mm znc 775-mm gunmounts on all of their cutters either. Please notice the Bushmaster is quite large enough to destroy buildings within its range. Also notice that commerical hulls and naval hulls are much thinner today than in the past. How many trawlers do you know have 57-mm gunmounts aboard?
If the OPVs were used strictly for EEZ patrols or patroling around South Pacific islands, then the Bushmaster likely would be more than adequate. The question I think is, "will the Bushmaster be enough if the OPVs are given more than just EEZ patrol tasks?" Given the small number of deployable vessels in the RNZN, the question IMV will come up. And then the merits of a 25mm projecticle with a range of ~2km will have to be discussed. If the OPV needs to provide support to a landing, or a landed party, unless that support is as a heli platform and berthing space, a large gun would be needed. If, instead the tasking is to remain one of law/fishery enforcement and SAR, then the armament would suffice.

-Cheers
 

Sea Toby

New Member
I think if an OPV was used for either, the OPV would never approach the shore in a dangerous situation. Their small RHIBs or a helicopter would be used to land any small special forces operation in the South Pacific. Both OPVs can house a NH-90 helicopter when needed.

While I can see the need and prefer a larger gunmount myself, the NZ government chose otherwise. A Bushmaster gun is more than sufficient for the role the ship was built for, EEZ patrol.

None of the medium endurance cutters of the US Coast Guard have CIWS either, only the larger high endurance cutters have CIWS. As I have noted before, lesser armed ships are useful too.
 

NZLAV

New Member
If the OPVs were used strictly for EEZ patrols or patroling around South Pacific islands, then the Bushmaster likely would be more than adequate. The question I think is, "will the Bushmaster be enough if the OPVs are given more than just EEZ patrol tasks?" Given the small number of deployable vessels in the RNZN, the question IMV will come up. And then the merits of a 25mm projecticle with a range of ~2km will have to be discussed. If the OPV needs to provide support to a landing, or a landed party, unless that support is as a heli platform and berthing space, a large gun would be needed. If, instead the tasking is to remain one of law/fishery enforcement and SAR, then the armament would suffice.

-Cheers
I wouldn't say small force. Per capita it is actually quite large. Not many countries of 4 million hav a 130m MRV. The depolyable force, well if there was a big problem with indonesia, the navy cound send 2 frigates, MRV, 1 replenish vessel, 2 OPV, Hydro Graphic survey and mine. Possibly even 1 or 2 IPV. That is a nice force when supported by harpoon armed Orions (fingers crossed) and seasprites.
 

Gibbo

Well-Known Member
I wouldn't say small force. Per capita it is actually quite large. Not many countries of 4 million hav a 130m MRV. The depolyable force, well if there was a big problem with indonesia, the navy cound send 2 frigates, MRV, 1 replenish vessel, 2 OPV, Hydro Graphic survey and mine. Possibly even 1 or 2 IPV. That is a nice force when supported by harpoon armed Orions (fingers crossed) and seasprites.
Okay per capita it may look good, but even if Harpoon equipped P3's & frigates were available to RNZN you'd be talking 2 Frigates and a significant number of extremely lightly armed supporting vessels - many of which can only do 12-14 knots flatout. Does the expression 'sitting ducks' ring any bells?

You'd be up against the Indonesian Navy which may not be the most up to date - but it's got dozens of surface combatants & number of missile craft. They've got subs & combat aircraft (so the P3's couldn't get anywhere near them!)

Sending virtually the entire RNZN would of course be unsustainable very quickly - but I guess the Aussies etc would be happy for them to be there - but we'd basically be relegated to peripheral support tasks.
 
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