French SSN Programme

riksavage

Banned Member
SSN Astute Nuclear Powered Attack Submarine

7, 800 t,110 personnel, length 97-metres. 29 knots dived, weapons fit: Tomahawk Block III, 6 x 533mm torpedo tubes for missiles and Spearfish torpedo - total of 36 carried

SSN Barracuda Nuclear Powered Attack Submarine

4, 100, 60 personnel (2 x crews), length 85-metres, 25 knots dived, weapons fit: Naval Scalp, 4 x 533m torpedo tubes – 18 total carried, SM39 Exocet.

Question: looking at the new French and UK SSN programs I was struck by the difference in size and weapons fit between the two classes. I was wondering why the French, having chosen to build a new generation of Nuclear boats with long endurance and global reach, didn’t go for a bigger class?

Looking at the stats taken from Naval.Technology.com the French vessel is smaller yet has ten more crew (assuming the Astute number does not refer to just one of two crews on board), why would this be the case?
 

riksavage

Banned Member
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Ignore my last, the French boat will have a total crew of 60 divided into two crew watches compared to 110 on the UK boat.

Still appears small for a nuclear boat though when compared to US/UK designs!
 

WillS

Member
Question: looking at the new French and UK SSN programs I was struck by the difference in size and weapons fit between the two classes. I was wondering why the French, having chosen to build a new generation of Nuclear boats with long endurance and global reach, didn’t go for a bigger class?
1: Cost: the Astute boats, and other boats of that size are very expensive (very good, but very expensive) and the French navy have the same resource allocation problems that other European navies have.
2: The Mediterranean: The French have a long Med coastline, its a major area of operations for them. Smaller boats are better suited to Med/litoral operations.

WillS.
 

contedicavour

New Member
I would only add that the Barracuda SSNs will be already a lot larger than the current Rubis class and will thus represent a significant improvement in size. Performance-wise, they will embark SCALP cruise missiles vs the Rubis' Exocet SM39 and new torpedoes to replace the obsolete F17P in the Rubis.
So I would compare Barracuda vs Rubis not vs the RN Astute.

cheers
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
What is the most modern Torpedo used by the french navy?

The F17P is as you said becoming old. With other countries fielding much newer torpedoes on their subs.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
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How does SCALP compare to block 4 Tomahawk – payload and range for example?

Will the French boats use non-hull penetrating optical senses instead of traditional periscopes?

I’m sure the Barracuda class will be a considerable step-up when compared to Rubis, how many of the former are they planning to build?
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
Ok ok let me clear some points about our new SSN programm.

6 boats are going to be build, replacing 6 old generation Amethyste SSNs.

All I can say now is that the total weapons aboard the Barracuda class SSN is going to be 20, including:
-New version of the Exocet SM 39.
-A new heavyweight torpedo, which will not going to be the Blackshark.
-The Scalp Naval cruise missile, the range of this new weapon (this is not a direct adaptation of the air-launched cruise missile Scalp EG) is reported to be around 600 nm. Payload could be the same as the airborne missile.

These boats are going to be much bigger than the Amethyste class, but less men are going to operate them thanks to improvments in automated systems and new "user friendly" combat systems.

Submerged maximum speed is going to be more than 25 knots.

Comparing to the Astute class. What strikes me is that the current Trafalgar class has been commissioned after the Amethyste class but is going to be replaced before. Why? Because the French Navy does not have much more money to build more capable subs. We have to do with what we have. And while other countries do not have any problem in buying foreign military stuffs, we in France are specialist in national programm, like the Rafale, the Leclerc MBT, the M51 nuclear missile, torpedo, missiles of all kind, etc etc.. It costs much more money! That's the price for our independance...
Personnaly I think we could evolve.
 

harryriedl

Active Member
Verified Defense Pro
Ok ok let me clear some points about our new SSN programm.

6 boats are going to be build, replacing 6 old generation Amethyste SSNs.

All I can say now is that the total weapons aboard the Barracuda class SSN is going to be 20, including:
-New version of the Exocet SM 39.
-A new heavyweight torpedo, which will not going to be the Blackshark.
-The Scalp Naval cruise missile, the range of this new weapon (this is not a direct adaptation of the air-launched cruise missile Scalp EG) is reported to be around 600 nm. Payload could be the same as the airborne missile.

These boats are going to be much bigger than the Amethyste class, but less men are going to operate them thanks to improvments in automated systems and new "user friendly" combat systems.

Submerged maximum speed is going to be more than 25 knots.

Comparing to the Astute class. What strikes me is that the current Trafalgar class has been commissioned after the Amethyste class but is going to be replaced before. Why? Because the French Navy does not have much more money to build more capable subs. We have to do with what we have. And while other countries do not have any problem in buying foreign military stuffs, we in France are specialist in national programm, like the Rafale, the Leclerc MBT, the M51 nuclear missile, torpedo, missiles of all kind, etc etc.. It costs much more money! That's the price for our independance...
Personnaly I think we could evolve.
not entirely true the Trafalgar and swiftsure classes are staying in service its the boats which haven't been upgraded are being replaced by the astute class
 

riksavage

Banned Member
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The following provides an overviw of the planned Astute fleet introduction and retirement of older classes. I doubt we will see all planned Astutes, so the Trafalgar class batch 1's will remain in service for some time.

Possible road map for RN SSN force levels based on data available early 2006
Year Submarine Event Number in fleet
2006 Sovereign Decommissioned
2006 Spartan Decommissioned
2008 Superb Decommissioned
2008 Astute Delivered
2008 Trafalgar Decommissioned
2010 Sceptre Decommissioned
2010 Ambush Delivered
2011 Turbulent Decommissioned
2011 Artful Delivered
2013 Tireless Decommissioned
2013 A-04 Delivered ?
2015 Torbay Decommissioned
2015 A-05 Delivered ?
2017 Trenchant Decommissioned
2017 A-06 Delivered ?
2019 Talent Decommissioned
2019 A-07 Delivered ?
2022 Triumph Decommissioned
 

BKNO

Banned Member
WillS 2: The Mediterranean: The French have a long Med coastline, its a major area of operations for them. Smaller boats are better suited to Med/litoral operations.
Very relevant point here...

In fact there is a REAL issue as far as size is concerned with the MN SSNs.

France doesn't operate SSKs anymore but many of our sensitive bases, like flight test centers are close to the litoral both Atlantic and Mediterranean.

MN weapons tests are done close to Corsica...

This means that one very important aspect of the MN mission is detection and hunt of potentially hostile small subs in ELINT/SINGIT missions.

The maximum autonomy of 45 days for the Rubis is of course a lot shorter than its nuclear propulsion capabilties would allow and its combat persistence quiet low, passed the eralier noise problems it still demonstrated a lot of qualities in these waters.

Barracuda hydrodinamic design is optimised for a maneuvrability equal or superior to that of the rubis class while its endurence (Crew) goes from 45 days to 75 days.

This will make escort of the SNLEs a lot easier too...

In short, MN have NO needs for a SSN the class of Astute or Virginia and Barracuda size (4,765 tons)/endurence/combat persistance are tailored to MN requierements.

As for comparing it to Astute, there is at least THREE technologic generation of difference bewteen the two.

Astute is an old design with upgraded avionics, our National Thales is upgrading the sonar suite/combat system and that of Barracuda is not even designed yet.

Its weapon system architecture will based on that of the latest SSKs but that's all.

The reactor isn't in its operational design form either, its demonstrator have just been runing for less than a year.

It will be built in 100 HLES or higher grade (120 or 130 HLES are developed in France), a technology even the US havent mastered yet...
http://www.netmarine.net/bat/smarins/triompha/technique/index.htm

riksavage Will the French boats use non-hull penetrating optical senses instead of traditional periscopes?
Considering that Thales is a French company it would be nice yes...

Be serious...
 
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BKNO

Banned Member
A little bit of home work...

What is important to take into consideration with the Barracuda program is the technologic aspect of it.

During hard yearly negotiations with the industry, the last of which took place in 2006, DGA made clear to the that they wanted a significant technologic gains.

With these SSNs, better value for money was requiered, not only "Off the shelf" from the previous generation, this caused the 3 years program delays and the prolonged feasability studies during which a few configuration were proposed.

The goal was (openly) to avoid the problems encoutered by the Rafale program which systems obsolescence dues to lenghtly developement time were causing a substantial increase in cost.

So while some existing system architectures are retained because they are relatively new, at their heart it's all going to be the latest newbies.

According to the document ASSEMBLÉE NATIONALE N° 2627, PROJET DE loi de finances pour 2001 (n° 2585) from 11 october 2000, Barracuda then known as "programme de sous-marin d'attaque futur" (SMAF) have seen a heavy feasability studies revision with contract originaly scheduled for 2003 and service delivery 2010 then 2012.

A NAVAL version of the SCALP was also perceived as a necessary capabiltiy, it is now classified as MdCN (missile de croisiere naval) dy DGA.

>>>>>

Reactor and Propulsion.

The reactor is of the K15 family but NOT that used by the TRIOMPHANT class or CdG.

Weither the Astute uses a SSBN reactor (a Vanguard-class Core-H PWR 2), Barracuda reactor is of a new design, sized for its hull, using more advanced technologies than the previous generation of K15 equiping French SNLE-NGs.

Developement of the K15 family dates from <> 1986, this new reactor was only developed from 2003 onward.

The contract for the Barracuda reactor was passed by DGA to AREVA TA and DCN in December 2006, for an adaptation of the K15 equiping the SNLE-NGs and CDG.

A technology demonstrator have been runing for <> a year in a new-built (from 2003) facilities.

It was not designed for a 30 years life unrefueld autonomy, instead, it is conceived for the use of the SAME grade of fuel than the EDF (CIVILIAN) reactors, and is in compliance with the latest safety and environmental regulations (MARPOL), it still have been designed with an autonomy of ten years in mind.

Autonomy, maintainance, quieting and new "Supercruise" design were among the requierements, and the first operational reactor is scheduled for start in 2014.

The propulsive system is of a new, "hybrid type":

Optimised for higher silent speeds, using a combined electric, a turbo-electric layout and pump jet.

Advantages are obvious, simpler design, higher power output for a lower energy consumption, significant reduction of the system total mass.

>>>>>

Hull and hydrodynamics.

Considering its futur role and MN mission requierements, barracuda design phylosophy is similar to that of the USN Virginia class, with clear demands on shallow waters operations capabilties from the outset including special ops.

Note that the latest isn't necessarly reflected in the hull design of Astute for example, which basic design is that of the Trafalgar class with an enlarged hull to accomodate the larger reactor.

There was no requierements for a higher maneuvrability which was one of the Virginia class and is part of that of Barracuda.

This is reflected in its design, in particular the X-shaped control surfaces similar to that fited to the Sweedish A-19 class and providing with increased control authority, DCN proposed configuration ressembles that of the Virginia.
http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/156/shipssnbarracudacutawayqj1.jpg
It will be equiped with a non-penetrating optronics periscopes designed by Thales/Sagem.

>>>>>

Weapon and combat systems.

Barracuda is designed around a requierement for 75 days of autonomy.

Weapon load is sized for this mission length, and as DoC_FouALieR have already established it posses four torpedo tubes and will carry a total of 20 weapons.
All weapons including those aimed at ground targets will be tube-launched.

The Combat Management System is derivated from the SYCOBS, which was originaly developed in replacement of the SNLE-NG SET system.
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8997/subticsve8.jpg
This upgrade was made necessary by the introdution of the new M 51 SLBMs.

SET was fited to all MN SNLE-NGs and only the S619 LE TERRIBLE will be equiped with SYCOBS from launch, it will be retrofited to the remaining boats later.

Barracuda Combat Management System will be sharing SYCOBS architecure and also have much in common with DCN (Scoprene) Subtics CMS.

Barracuda sonars will be bow, flank and towed arrays.

Communication includes: Link-16, Link 22, SATCOM (SYRACUSE II).

Internal communication is by Optical-fibre transmission.

About the weapon load:

France have long been an advocate of multirole assets and high degree of flexibility.

Barracuda is regarded as the "Omnirole" submarine.

If it isn't equiped with vertical launchers, its weapon capabilties are no lesser, for example, although perhaps not as capable as a SCALP NAVAL, the new generation Exocet (and sub-launched versions) MM40 Block3 have a 180 km range and ground target capabilties.

Vertical launchers were disregarded as being too costly and heavy and as weapon capabilties increased with new modes the need for this arrangement was quiet low.

A submarine-launched version of MBDA-France MICA is also proposed and was displayed on MBDA stand at Eurosatory a couple of years ago...

DoC_FouALieR Personnaly I think we could evolve.
I desagree here, remember that France have the FULL capabiltity to design, build (and sell for the last type) SSBN, SSN and SSK from A-to-Z, even the French industrials want to retain this capability.
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
Talking about evolution, I was rather thinking at surface platform radars and land assets such as IFVs, among others.
But I totally agree on building our own SSNs.
 

riksavage

Banned Member
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Excuse me for my naiveté but the two previous posts here appear to leverage on the Barracudas size being driven by Mediterranean focused operations not financial restrictions.

I somehow doubt UK and US boats are going to suffer a significant disadvantage operating in the Med because they happen to be larger. The significant increase in weapons payload the UK/US boats will carry, far out ways the Barracudas smaller size and ‘so called’ littoral advantages. In today’s unpredictable world you need a SSN system with global reach, one that can stay at sea for extended periods, have the capability to monitor hostile countries for extended periods of time, carry and deploy SF water operators and finally launch precession strike missions. Looking at Astute vs, Barracuda I know which one I would opt for – size does matter!

Just because Thales is building elements of the UK non-penetrating periscopes doest automatically mean the French boats will opt for a similar design, I simply asked the question will they or won’t they?
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
As I said, the smaller sized of the Barracuda is lead by financial restriction.

However small size doesn't mean less capabilities. In the case of the Barracuda, it only affects the number of weapons.
In today’s unpredictable world you need a SSN system with global reach, one that can stay at sea for extended periods, have the capability to monitor hostile countries for extended periods of time, carry and deploy SF water operators and finally launch precession strike missions.
This is typically what we expect from a SSN like the Barracuda, the programm is build around what you have described, plus the fact that it has to fit a small boat, involving new reactor and prop technologies mainly.

Concerning the Med sea, it is not that shallow to require mini-subs. Not as shallow as the Atlantic shore of France...

Just because Thales is building elements of the UK non-penetrating periscopes doest automatically mean the French boats will opt for a similar design, I simply asked the question will they or won’t they?
They will.
 

BKNO

Banned Member
riksavage I somehow doubt UK and US boats are going to suffer a significant disadvantage operating in the Med because they happen to be larger.
Well you should.

The Trafalgar class was notoriously unmaneuvrable and the Astute class offers no improvements in this field only an increase in weight.

In seas like these, smaller, more agile subs have a clear advantage.

For a sub to be operating in shallow waters, maneuvrability is a MOST, even our actual SSNs are hitting the bottom from time to time and it can be even more of an issue with heavier/less maneuvrable subs.

Astute like Trafalgars before them are designs which were optimised for blue water operations and Russian boomers hunting, now look at the latest Virginia class and tell me what the difference is with the Seawolf....

Your assumption that bigger is better rests on what exactly?

riksavage Just because Thales is building elements of the UK non-penetrating periscopes doest automatically mean the French boats will opt for a similar design, I simply asked the question will they or won’t they?
What it means is that Thales have developed the technology and that it IS available to DGA so YES it means automatically ported to Franch futur boats/SSNs.

riksavage In today’s unpredictable world you need a SSN system with global reach,
Sure added with the best propulsion, combat systems, communication system and electronic available.

If you care to compare the two, it become more than obvious that Astute will be well behind when Barracuda enters service.

Are you implying that Astute which is basically 15 years older and already needs upgrades for cause of systems obsolescence is going to be as effiscient than a sub which is still designed today???

Havre a look at the 1999 to 2006 NAO on Astute and you will have a proper idea of what it is, been years late in service entry doesn't make it as moderns a system even as a Scoprene class...

What you are talking about had little to do with effisciency it have to do with combat persistance and is a different matter.

You can get sunk with 10 weapons more onboard or survive/conduct your mission with 10 less, what matter is what you can do and that you be able to do it for the requiered period of time and MN requierements were for 70 days.

DoC_FouALieR As I said, the smaller sized of the Barracuda is lead by financial restriction.
Every single French/DGA program is linked to the ratio weight/cost.
 
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riksavage

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BKNO The Virginia Class new attack submarine was designed to be an advanced stealth multi-mission nuclear-powered submarine for deep ocean anti-submarine warfare and littoral (shallow water) operations.
Dimensions
Length 377ft
Beam 34ft
Displacement, Submerged 7,800t

The Astute Class dimensions are almost identical, so one would assume it would have a similar footprint in a littoral environment, so therefore as in the case of the Virginia class suitable for littoral operations.
Length 97m
Beam 10.4m
Displacement 7,800t


Please provide me with evidence of Astute's obsolescence?

I would place bets on the Barracudas NOT being built on time. So called new-technological claims by France will ultimately lead to teething problems.
 

BKNO

Banned Member
riksavage The Astute Class dimensions are almost identical, so one would assume it would have a similar footprint in a littoral environment, so therefore as in the case of the Virginia class suitable for littoral operations.
It have little to DO with size ONLY, but SIZE and Hydrodynamics.

As for Astute problems of obsolescence, try the UK NAO as i said it's FULL of pretty good and proper informations.

And instead of copynig/pasting datas you'd better start with the program politico-industrial history.

riksavage I would place bets on the Barracudas NOT being built on time. So called new-technological claims by France will ultimately lead to teething problems.
What matters here is that every single device inside it will be of a totally NEW generation weither that of Astute is already dated.

http://img350.imageshack.us/img350/1452/1999naoastute1yt8.jpg

http://img277.imageshack.us/img277/2509/haharire395xk1.gif

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/4508/astuteorigins1aq6.jpg

http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/893/2076suite1996yx3.jpg

http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/674/1999naoastute2fu8.jpg

2076 is NOW sorted by Thales but was supposed to be ready MORE than 5 years ago...

To summerise it is NO more modern than our latest SNLE and their radar suite (among other items) already needs upgrading due to delays in their service entry and developements....

http://www.thalesgroup.com/press/press_releases/1_10065_236_12662.html

Thales awarded contract for major submarine sonar upgrade

Bristol, 28 Sep 2006

Thales UK has been awarded the contract worth some £30M for a major enhancement to the Trafalgar and Astute Class submarine sonar suites. Designated the Sonar 2076 Stage 5 programme,



AGAIN you seems to keep implying that no technological progresses are made in France and that the UKs are so much more advanced that they managed to launch a program a full two (electronic) generation cycles ago and still will have as advance systems in their Astues as they will be in a SSN shich is still on the design board..

READ: Delays
The Astute class was expected to be built roughly one-fifth more quickly than earlier boats, with lower running costs and a much smaller ship’s company. In the event however the programme has slipped by 4 years and has a predicted cost overrun of £1 billion,[1] and required a U.S. engineering management team from General Dynamics Electric Boat to be brought in to resolve programme problems.[2] The UK House of Commons Defence Committee, in July 2004, estimated the cost of Astute as £3,498 million compared to £2,578 million approved at Main Gate.[3] Furthermore they noted that the predicted in-service date was January 2009 compared to the date of June 2005 approved at Main Gate. A £164 million cost increase was disclosed in a National Audit Office report in November 2006. However the NAO noted the in-service date was then ahead of schedule compared to the revised in-service date.[4]

>>>>>

SSN Astute Class Attack Submarine, United Kingdom

PROPULSION

The nuclear power will be provided by the Rolls-Royce PWR 2 pressurised water reactor. The long-life core fitted on the PWR 2 means that refuelling will not be necessary in the service life of the submarine.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/astute/
>>>>>

SSBN Triomphant Class Ballistic Missile Submarines, France.

PROPULSION

The submarine's propulsion system is a nuclear turbo-electric system based on a Type K15 Pressure Water Reactor (PWR) supplying 150MW. The auxiliary propulsion system is diesel electric, with two SEMT-Pielstick 8 PA 4 v 200 SM diesels.

http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/triomphant/

>>>>>

Barracuda le programme dirigé par le CEA/DDPN de construction sur le site de Cadarache d'un réacteur d'essais à terre de chaufferies nucléaires (RES), dans lequel un coeur représentatif du coeur du Barracuda devra être testé.

http://www.defense.gouv.fr/dga/enje...s/maitrise_du_milieu_aeromaritime/sous_marin_

IN REALITY: The DEMONSTRATOR for the TRIOMPHANT reactor was STILL in trial while HMS Vanguard, was commissioned (in 1993), its reactor being of an older technological generation than that of the Triomphant...

The first PWR2 reactor was completed in 1985 with testing beginning in August 1987 at the Vulcan Naval Reactor Test Establishment, CORE H is only a recently developed core for the PWR 2 and the SAME reactor is fited to BOTH Vanguard and Astute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolls-Royce_PWR#PWR2

http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/3951/houseofcommon20june06bf4.jpg

Source: House of commons Defense commitee 20 June 2006.

The FIRST K15 wasn't instaled on-board le Triomphant before 1996....
http://www.technicatome.com/taweb.php?lg=fr&pos=0&vers=fl

Barracuda definitive reactor isn't even fully designed YET only a demonstrator is in CONSTRUCTION as for December 2006 = réacteur d'essais RES.

Date: 22 décembre 2006.

" La nouvelle chaufferie présentera de nets progrès en matière d'autonomie de fonctionnement et de maintenance. Pour la mettre au point, AREVA TA s'appuiera sur le réacteur d'essais RES, en cours de construction à Cadarache."

"Le démarrage de la première chaufferie nucléaire embarquée est prévu pour 2014."
http://www.arevagroup.com/servlet/C...se/PressReleaseFullTemplate&cid=1164911661378
As for Dec 2006, Barracuda reactor demonstrator IS of the same TYPE than the K-15 but of an entirely NEW design, MORE compact as Barracuda dimentions are smaler than that of Triomphant and the FIST serie Barracuda reactor is not even scheduled to be STARTED before 2014.

To summerise: Barracuda is of an entirely NEW generation of propulsion, Hydrodynamics, and systems weither Astute is derivated from Trafalgar and Vanguards for its design, reactor, propulsion systems, and systems...
 
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