U-214 for Pakistan

[powerslavenegi]

I will agree that DCN is trying hard to sell the Marlin with the full backing of the French Goverment. Even French President has talked to President Musharraf to persuade Pakistan to go for Marlin.

But I am apprehensive about SCALP offer. Will it not violate the MTCR regime?

That should not be a problem ,if the political will is there and French are really keen on selling the SCALP then they can always tailor the missile's range (<300 km) in accordance to MTCR.

Btw it is very intriguing that PN is keen on procuring three different subs (Agosta's are still being inducted / just been inducted) ,U-214's and then the Marlin's .Btw like Agosta's and U-214's would there be a TOT and licensed production of Marlins too ?

 

[pshamim]

Pakistan is supposed to make the decision by June 30th. If that happens, the deal should be signed shortly after that.

 

[Falstaff]

Is there a precedence of extremist taking over power in Pakistan?

To be honest I'm not much into Pakistani politics apart from what I read in newspapers. As far as I know and Sabre confirmed this there is no precedence.
But I guess one can say that since the 1980's (since Mohammed Zia ul-Haq) muslim extremists (and I would like to call them extremists to seperate them from conservatives) become more and more influential. The BBC-article I posted above describes one aspect of that. AFAIK there are more than 20.000 madrassas, some of them very extremist.
I really don't know how much Pakistan is pro-west apart from Musharraf. What about the common people? Perhaps Sabre can say something about it.
Again I must say the articles I referred to in the first place don't represent the position of the German government, but concerns that were raised mainly in the press and by the leftist opposition.

Btw, the German govt. knew the Isrealis were fielding nuclear cruise missiles on their subs and they still continue to supply them with 2 additional ones. The Israelis requested a few torpedo tubes to be modify in order to launch nuclear Cruise missiles. I am not aware of any uproar then.

Hold it! The Israelis don't have nukes. That's the official position
However, Germany has a very special relationship to Israel because of WW II and Israel is very good in reminding us. So you won't have an uproar no matter what they do. Did you know they didn't have to pay a single Dollar for the first three subs and we'll give them the next two for 1/3 of the price? We call it military aid...

Germans wont appear least bit hippocratic compared to USA after that.

I don't really understand what you mean with "hippocratic", sorry. Could you explain?

Its complicated. Both Pakistan & Israel dont consider each other threats, well at least not direct military threats, but they do hold suspicions. Pakistan has reached out to Israel on several occasions for sure, the most recent was last week. But as far as I know, both countries would turn defensive (not in war like sense) when considering each other.

I agree. However, in case one day this changes and Pakistan enters the "Crush Israel Association" the nuclear Barbur armed submarines would by far be the most fearsome threat to Israel and prob. the whole western world.

Apart from the better offsets on offer, the french have also offered a weapons package containing the naval version of the SCALP cruise missile. This would give the Marlins (if selected) a pretty robust land attack capability.

That's very interesting. Can you provide any further readings on that? However I think the Pakistanis would prefer their Barbur cruise missile...

 

[SATAN]

To be honest I'm not much into Pakistani politics apart from what I read in newspapers. As far as I know and Sabre confirmed this there is no precedence.
But I guess one can say that since the 1980's (since Mohammed Zia ul-Haq) muslim extremists (and I would like to call them extremists to seperate them from conservatives) become more and more influential. The BBC-article I posted above describes one aspect of that. AFAIK there are more than 20.000 madrassas, some of them very extremist.
I really don't know how much Pakistan is pro-west apart from Musharraf. What about the common people? Perhaps Sabre can say something about it.
Again I must say the articles I referred to in the first place don't represent the position of the German government, but concerns that were raised mainly in the press and by the leftist opposition.

I dont know if you are just another hindoostanian starting your propaganda or really misinformed. Pakistan is a moderate country, its always been a part of western alliances since 1949.The "extremist bogey" is usually raised by the hindoos who follow the most idiotic religon known to mankind. Yeah there are some nutcases in the north western part of the country thanks to the Anti-Soviet CIA sponsored war in the 80's. They are now being taken out in the new "War on Terror"...in which Pakistan is again a front line ally .

The U214 deal might look interesting to the Pakistan navy as they want to diversify their fleet of subs. I dont know how reliable Germany is going to be in this regard. HDW was bought over by an American Company in 1998... so the threat of sanctions always remains.As far as having Nuclear tipped Cruise missiles...so what? Pakistan is a Nuclear power, it exploded 6 devices in 98 of which 3 were miniaturized devices in the sub-kiloton range. If it wants to Nuclearize its sub fleet like Israel....then it will do so. I think Germans should be more concerned with fundamentalist hindus riding around in the AKULAS that they are leasing from the russians. [Admin. Complaint lodged about inflammatory comments. Please exercise some prudence as we all know that it doesn't take much for the anti-pakistani, anti-indian complainst to start flooding the Mods as Reported Posts]What can germany do to stop them? So please....lets leave out you issues with {{20,000 madrasas}} and discuss submarines for the Pak Navy.

 

[SATAN]

I don't think Pakistan poses a threat to Israel. The govt of Pakistan has reached out to the Israelis on several occasions recently. Btw, the German govt. knew the Isrealis were fielding nuclear cruise missiles on their subs and they still continue to supply them with 2 additional ones. The Israelis requested a few torpedo tubes to be modify in order to launch nuclear Cruise missiles. I am not aware of any uproar then.

Israel is not seen as a threat by Pakistan and there is a huge desire to befriend Israel. Israel is a defacto Superpower in the middle east and the premier American Ally today.

Israel's newer Dolphins were financed by USAID and some of the technology in the Dolphins came from Lockheed Martin. Its Subs form an essential part of Israel's second strike capability. The newer two Dolphins will be fitted with AIP.

 

[Waylander]

I always knew it.

deleted
That is auncalled for and demeaning comment. Stay away from such comments.

 

[Falstaff]

I always knew it.
Deleted[COLOR="Red"][/COLOR]. SAY THE TRUTH!!!!!

Dammit. Now you got me...

 

[gf0012-aust]

Before anyone goes any further.

I will automatically delete entire posts if I see anti-pakistani, anti-indian, anti-israeli, anti-chinese, anti-american, anti-australian, anti-french comments lodged. In other words, anything that is deemed to be racially insensitive and a trigger for friction.

stay within the spirit of the argument and debate.

I get really tired of editing and deleting posts when more restraint could be exercised.

 

[Falstaff]

I dont know if you are just another hindoostanian starting your propaganda or really misinformed. Pakistan is a moderate country, its always been a part of western alliances since 1949.The "extremist bogey" is usually raised by the hindoos who follow the most idiotic religon known to mankind.

SATAN, there is no reason to go mad and offending other religions isn't tolerated in this forum.
As you can see in my profile I'm German, so no propaganda here. I stated above I'm not much into it. Just trying to be objective and repeating what I read about Pakistan.
Perhaps you can elaborate your post a bit more so I (and others) can learn from your point of view.

The U214 deal might look interesting to the Pakistan navy as they want to diversify their fleet of subs. I dont know how reliable Germany is going to be in this regard. HDW was bought over by an American Company in 1998...

Now you're misinformed. Big deal a few years ago, but solved in the meantime. No american influence.

As far as having Nuclear tipped Cruise missiles...so what? Pakistan is a Nuclear power, it exploded 6 devices in 98 of which 3 were miniaturized devices in the sub-kiloton range. If it wants to Nuclearize its sub fleet like Israel....then it will do so.

Can you imagine there are some here who don't think nukes are a great idea?

I think Germans should be more concerned with fundamentalist hindus riding around in the AKULAS that they are leasing from the russians. They pose a threat to the entrie indian ocean region and could aim their Bra-mice at EU states. If extemist hindus can carry tridents and burn down nuns and churches....they could also take their issues to the mediterranean sea. What can germany do to stop them? So please....lets leave out you issues with {{20,000 madrasas}} and discuss submarines for the Pak Navy.

Wrong again, pal. Please stick with facts and don't try to construct absurd scenarios like that. Doesn't help your reasoning.

Israel's newer Dolphins were financed by USAID

Only partially true. 2/3 were financed by Germany, only the remaining 1/3 by the US.

 

[gf0012-aust]

HDW was bought over by an American Company in 1998...

They were never taken over by the americans. The americans are minor shareholders. IIRC, 20% maximum due to national security legislation issues.

waylander will no doubt correct me if i'm wrong

 

[SABRE]

AFAIK there are more than 20.000 madrassas, some of them very extremist.

Most of them have been closed. Many remain because of their association with mainstream politics. The government, as I believe, isnt scared to crack down on them but is scared of political exploitation that might follow. But lets keep such talkout.

I really don't know how much Pakistan is pro-west apart from Musharraf. What about the common people? Perhaps Sabre can say something about it.

May be you have herd of the term "Strategic Culture." It is collectivity of norms, believes, attitudes & historical experiences of the dominent (ruling elite. & it shapes the response to the security issues.

Pakistan's Strategic Culture, especially on historical experience, terms USA is exploitive, advantage-taker & some one who calls you a friend & allie but runs away on the time of need. This has followed into the people or public. Majority isnt anti-West however, but tends to be reluctent of USA. If USA hasnt realized, when calling Pakistan its friend & ally its making fool out of no one but it self. The people no longer take Amerian words seriously. What people here support is that Pakistan should have independent Foreign Policy & USA should keep out of Pakistani politics & should limit it self to trade, defence & technology dealings.

But USA isnt the only one in the West. For the rest common people dont really care off, hack they dont even give a hack if you are an American walking on the streets of Islamabad.

To explain common people's attitude towards West is bit complicated. It will take a long long time to explain & discuss it; & this is getting off topic.

I don't really understand what you mean with "hippocratic", sorry. Could you explain?

Dont pay attention to it. I was quoting the other guy who was potrayin Germans (on the forum) as hypocratical towards Pakistan, while dealing with Israel.

I agree. However, in case one day this changes and Pakistan enters the "Crush Israel Association" the nuclear Barbur armed submarines would by far be the most fearsome threat to Israel and prob. the whole western world.

Pakistan dropped out of anti-Israel team long ago. Thanks to certain Middle Eastern countries who want to solve Arab-Israel problem not on the humanitarian basis but to develop their own power in the region. Pakistan navy rarely ventures into waters near Egypt, Syria, Libya, Lebanon & Israel.

Again, this is some what off topic.

That's very interesting. Can you provide any further readings on that? However I think the Pakistanis would prefer their Barbur cruise missile...

In the quote it says my nick, but I dint write it. You are quoting someone else.

 

[powerslavenegi]

I dont know if you are just another hindoostanian starting your propaganda or really misinformed. Pakistan is a moderate country, its always been a part of western alliances since 1949.The "extremist bogey" is usually raised by the hindoos who follow the most idiotic religon known to mankind.

Hey if you are so cranked with Falstaff's post why dont you tackle it on merit instead of resorting to blame game.

Hey btw you seem to have a nice sense of humour here for for other members to enjoy

Yeah there are some nutcases in the north western part of the country thanks to the Anti-Soviet CIA sponsored war in the 80's. They are now being taken out in the new "War on Terror"...in which Pakistan is again a front line ally .

I assume 'They' refer to Taliban,and who created em .... go figure ?

I think Germans should be more concerned with fundamentalist hindus riding around in the AKULAS that they are leasing from the russians. They pose a threat to the entrie indian ocean region and could aim their Bra-mice at EU states. If extemist hindus can carry tridents and burn down nuns and churches....{{20,000 madrasas}} and discuss submarines for the Pak Navy.

That post sums it up what has U-214 got to do with Indian sub continent ,why your posts have to be so India centric if you find anyones comments about Pakistan or related issues offensive or out of the place why you need cry foul about Indian military assets.:unknown .

 

[gf0012-aust]

This thread is closed for a short while the merits of it re-opening are discussed with Web and the other Mods.

 

[webmaster]

Okay, I am going to re-open this thread, please follow these guidelines if you want to stick around DefenceTalk:

THE DOs

1. Discuss U-214 (its a naval SUBMARINE weapon system... so post accordingly) capabilities
2. Why Pakistan Navy needs this capability?
3. How it can alter the strategic naval and military balance in Pakistan's favor?
4. What other weapons systems can increase or decrease its capability?
5. What other options are available for Pakistan navy as alternative to U-214 naval submarine weapon system?

The DON'Ts (lets see if I can put these in nice words, if anybody is caught making comments on points below, they will face a direct ban - no questions, ifs or buts.)

1. NO yip yapping about "what if Pakistan is taken over by extremists..." It's stupid, really. Discuss that here!
   
2. For Pakistan, it is a strategic military and naval decision... not political. I don't think anybody in Pakistan is going to use U-214 purchase for or against their political standings, why comment on it!!!??? Discuss that here!
3. There will be NO mention of such and such technology going from Pakistan to other countries. Open a different thread if you feel so strongly about that.
4. DO NOT make any comments or quote any comments that could potentially lead to 3 DON'Ts mentioned above and your ban!
   

Don't disappoint the DT mod team...

Thanks and enjoy!

 

[ahussains]

Nice post Webby ...

So u start it what advantages Pakistan got by having U-214 Technically or Stratigically as compare to Marlin, Scorpean, or Agusta 90 B

 

[BilalK]

Agosta-90B is of an older generation than U214 & Marlin. If the PN is looking towards the 2010 and 2020s, it'd be better if it looks at the newer generation - i.e U214, Scorpene, Marlin, etc.

At this point the U214 is a tangible item whereas Marlin is a concept, design or at best a blueprint for construction. The PN can evaluate the U214 and get a good idea of the submarine's performance as well as see physical weakenesses and work to solve them. Note if the PN chose Marlin, the first PN Marlin would be the first Marlin ever. Potential problems, technical faults, etc, will arise and it can become a headache for the navy.

 

[aaaditya]

Agosta-90B is of an older generation than U214 & Marlin. If the PN is looking towards the 2010 and 2020s, it'd be better if it looks at the newer generation - i.e U214, Scorpene, Marlin, etc.

At this point the U214 is a tangible item whereas Marlin is a concept, design or at best a blueprint for construction. The PN can evaluate the U214 and get a good idea of the submarine's performance as well as see physical weakenesses and work to solve them. Note if the PN chose Marlin, the first PN Marlin would be the first Marlin ever. Potential problems, technical faults, etc, will arise and it can become a headache for the navy.

not necessarily,particularly if the marlin is an evolutionary design based on the scorpene.

 

[Waylander]

Every first design has its flaws. That's the problem with having the first vessel of every class.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

I think whatever submarine type you buy, it is going to be good at it's purpose, if simply due to the intence competition. So it comes down to delivery times, price, offsets, rules attacted (such as whether you are free to build additional platforms for yourself and/or others) etc.
I am not sure about the french aip system. I'd be happier if it used diesel rather than ethanol, it's just one more fuel type. Same for the current fuel cells, unless the hydrogen was created onboard by reforming diesel.

 

[radiosilence]

Touching on Waylander's point, it will also take longer for Marlin to be inducted into service. A lot of testing needs to be done on a new design before its ready which is one of the reasons why the U-214 will be more attractive for a potential buyer right now.