U-214 for Pakistan

Musashi_kenshin

Well-Known Member
Israelis, Americans including some Chinese and Indian Americans are the source too. Money talks.
Sure, but it's always a risk. What you need to know is whether you can trust the government to keep a lid on things. If they do their best then the risk is the one you have all the time, that of individual greed.

What is quite evident that when there is a news of Pakistan getting something from somewhere, you see the frogs come out ribitting against Pakistan. You will find this quite common on many forums.
I think part of it is a combination of letting the past influencing ones' thinking now and also some people having a fairly low opinion of Pakistan. As I said, I don't think the US would have been that eager to sell Orions to Islamabad if there was any belief they couldn't/wouldn't keep its secrets confidential.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
I think part of it is a combination of letting the past influencing ones' thinking now and also some people having a fairly low opinion of Pakistan. As I said, I don't think the US would have been that eager to sell Orions to Islamabad if there was any belief they couldn't/wouldn't keep its secrets confidential.
This is a result of unending propaganda against Pakistan by certain quarters. Many of these stories are fabricated. I worked on F-16s marketing team for General Dynamics. We never had any evidence todate that there was ever a F-16 transferred to China by Pakistan. But this rumor was fabricated any way. People who acused Pakistan of transferring F-16 to China claimed the technology was used to develop the JF-17 by Chine. Same people now claim that JF-17 is based on Mig-21 to claim that it is an inferior machine. Unfortunately, many are quite culpable in believing this stories because of their bias towards Pakistan.
 

pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
According to a French Press report, Pakistan is supposed to make a decision by the end of June and pick the German or the French Marlin. Competition between the two has been quite intense. No fear on their part if Pakistan will transfer their technology to China. .

Please see some never seen underwater pictures of Marlin as claimed by French:

We propose this morning to discover, ahead first, Marlin to you, new underwater of attack conceived by DCN. Drawing its name from a fish of the Indian Ocean, this ship, derived from Scorpène, studied in common with the Navantia Spaniard, will be exclusively intended for the market export. Paris and Madrid, which have for the moment sold 10 Scorpène in Chile, Malaysia and India, indeed decided to propose, each one on their side, a purely national product. After the S 80 Spanish, DCN thus puts on line Marlin. Of a 75 meters length for a displacement of 1850 tons in diving, Marlin is proposed directly with the system of propulsion in closed loop (AIP) MESMA, developed by DCN propulsion and installed for the first time on Hamza, third Pakistani Agosta 90B, launched this summer in Karachi. Compared to this building, whose MESMA runs on ethanol, the AIP of Marlin will run on the gas oil, which will make it possible to have only one type of reserve fuel, feeding at the same time this system, but also the diesel engines. Compared to the traditional propulsion, the AIP increases considerably the autonomy of the submerged submarine, passing from four to five days, with nearly three weeks. But, although representing a technological jump some, the system of propulsion in closed loop have to him also its limits. Usable for the patrols, it can only be with difficulty put in Suvre for the transits, especially when they are long: “with the AIP, once the reserves with oxygen or hydrogen emptied, it is finished. Thus if the ship is not basiquement a good submarine, one does not go well far”, underlines a specialist.

Heir to Triumphing and predecessor over the Barracuda

In addition to the MESMA, the building was thus equipped with a powerful motorization. For the transits in traditional mode of propulsion, the power of its diesels enables him more quickly to reload its batteries, which is presented by DCN as a true commercial advantage compared to its competitors, like type 212/214 German. Outside, the principal difference of Marlin compared to Scorpène will lie in the adoption of diving ruders in the shape of cross of Saint Andre. This device, which will be taken again on the nuclear submarines of attack of the Barracuda type, allows a better maneuverability. Although resembling SNA of the type Amethyst, Scorpène, which is used as a basis for Marlin, “must more with Triumphing than with the Ruby from the point of view structures and technology. Its capacities of detection are exceptional, it is fast and quiet at raised speed”, explains a close relation of the file. Equipped with a system with combat SUBTICS and new very effective bases sonar, even at high speed, Scorpène, like Marlin, constitute, according to DCN, a technological jump ergonomics data processing. The innovations installed on Scorpène, in particular as regards piping or wiring, will be taken again on Marlin, as the Barracuda. Oceanic ship, Marlin will be equipped with anti-ship missiles Exocet SM 39, heavy torpedes and, possibly, mines. For DCN, this new product is not a substitute of Scorpène. “This last must remain in the offered line of goods”, ensures one at the industrialist. A first contract with Pakistan is hoped. Islamabad must make its decision at the end of the first six-month period 2007.
 

tphuang

Super Moderator
Something like the P-3C Orion? Last time I looked, China couldn't build anything like that for Pakistan. Equally I would say F-16 Block 52 is superior to the JF-17.
P-3C, that's actually a pretty good one. But I would say PN can do without something like that. Although interestingly enough, they are creating an ASW version of Y-8X that's similar to P-3C. Not sure how far it is from joining PLAN though. As for F-16, PAF is already picking J-10 ahead of it from what I can see.
 

Rich

Member
This is a result of unending propaganda against Pakistan by certain quarters. Many of these stories are fabricated. I worked on F-16s marketing team for General Dynamics. We never had any evidence todate that there was ever a F-16 transferred to China by Pakistan. But this rumor was fabricated any way. People who acused Pakistan of transferring F-16 to China claimed the technology was used to develop the JF-17 by Chine. Same people now claim that JF-17 is based on Mig-21 to claim that it is an inferior machine. Unfortunately, many are quite culpable in believing this stories because of their bias towards Pakistan.
Yeah right, anything perceived as negative towards Pakistan is considered bias.:rolleyes: Or should I say "facts"?

Here's another fact! China has a massive espionage network aimed at stealing military secrets of not only America but also Europe and Australia. Actually they have a huge network aimed at stealing anything anywheres but it is mostly aimed at American military secrets.

Now add to this mix the fact that China has given extensive help to Pakistan in its nuclear and missile programs. And this help was given secretly or under cloak of the Khan network.

Whats that saying? Where theres smoke theres fire?

If anyone gave China the F-16 it was probably Taiwan. However there is no doubt in my mind that any technology sold to Pakistan would end up in Chinese hands because of the cloak and dagger, and very close, relationship built on China giving them the bomb. There are many fingers to point to and they include the Israelis but the bottom line is if we export these technologies on a large scale they are going to be compromised.

We have a hard enough time protecting the stuff on our own shores.
 

cheetah

New Member
Yeah right, anything perceived as negative towards Pakistan is considered bias.:rolleyes: Or should I say "facts"?

Here's another fact! China has a massive espionage network aimed at stealing military secrets of not only America but also Europe and Australia. Actually they have a huge network aimed at stealing anything anywheres but it is mostly aimed at American military secrets.

Now add to this mix the fact that China has given extensive help to Pakistan in its nuclear and missile programs. And this help was given secretly or under cloak of the Khan network.

Whats that saying? Where theres smoke theres fire?

If anyone gave China the F-16 it was probably Taiwan. However there is no doubt in my mind that any technology sold to Pakistan would end up in Chinese hands because of the cloak and dagger, and very close, relationship built on China giving them the bomb. There are many fingers to point to and they include the Israelis but the bottom line is if we export these technologies on a large scale they are going to be compromised.

We have a hard enough time protecting the stuff on our own shores.
In your responce i didnt see any facts.all i see is a bias.
So your whole answer is based on whole lot of NOTHING.but your prejudice.:unknown
 

Schumacher

New Member
Instead of looking at how hard Pakistan will prevent any transfer to China, maybe it's good to look at just how upset Germany will really be anyway if it really happens. Remember France & Germany, under Schroder at least, were the strongest proponents of lifting the arms ban to China.
I'd say it's not nearly as fearful of any transfer to China as the US is.
 

Schumacher

New Member
......
And that happened whilst the US and European countries were selling weapons to Pakistan - or was that when the embargoes were placed on it, as BilalK suggested? Because I doubt the restrictions on arms sales would have been lifted unless countries like the US and Germany were completely confident those items were safe in Pakistani hands.
Fu, the embargo was there due mainly to the BM & nuclear issues in that part of the world.
One can never be sure of espionage, in any countries, one way or the other.
That's why there's still plenty of 'suggestion' of possible transfer to China & the point is Germany is still proceeding with the deal.
If there's as real a fear of possible transfer as you suggest, the deal wouldn't have gone ahead. It's as simple as that.
 
Yeah right, anything perceived as negative towards Pakistan is considered bias.:rolleyes: Or should I say "facts"?

Here's another fact! China has a massive espionage network aimed at stealing military secrets of not only America but also Europe and Australia. Actually they have a huge network aimed at stealing anything anywheres but it is mostly aimed at American military secrets.

Now add to this mix the fact that China has given extensive help to Pakistan in its nuclear and missile programs. And this help was given secretly or under cloak of the Khan network.

Whats that saying? Where theres smoke theres fire?

If anyone gave China the F-16 it was probably Taiwan. However there is no doubt in my mind that any technology sold to Pakistan would end up in Chinese hands because of the cloak and dagger, and very close, relationship built on China giving them the bomb. There are many fingers to point to and they include the Israelis but the bottom line is if we export these technologies on a large scale they are going to be compromised.

We have a hard enough time protecting the stuff on our own shores.
The thread is U-214 for Pakistan ! I hope this thread don't get close because of rich's bs posts like some other threads did in the past.
 
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pshamim

New Member
Verified Defense Pro
French, German, and US have no problem. But of course some people are upset for reasons they know better. We agree to disagree.

Regarding the U-214, reports are that all 3 214s will be built in Pakistan under a TOT offer by Germany.

Some reports also mention that the number may be 4. 3 initial with an option for 4th. This does not kill Marlins as far as Pakistan may go for at least 3 of them later.
 
French, German, and US have no problem. But of course some people are upset for reasons they know better. We agree to disagree.

Regarding the U-214, reports are that all 3 214s will be built in Pakistan under a TOT offer by Germany.

Some reports also mention that the number may be 4. 3 initial with an option for 4th. This does not kill Marlins as far as Pakistan may go for at least 3 of them later.
Will the U-214s have the same design and capabilities as the Greek and South Korean ones have?
 

BilalK

New Member
French, German, and US have no problem. But of course some people are upset for reasons they know better. We agree to disagree.

Regarding the U-214, reports are that all 3 214s will be built in Pakistan under a TOT offer by Germany.

Some reports also mention that the number may be 4. 3 initial with an option for 4th. This does not kill Marlins as far as Pakistan may go for at least 3 of them later.
It depends how you look at it. Not a lot of information has been released on the Marlin except that it is based off Scorpene and uses some Barracuda technology. However what are its weapon-systems? Will they be the same as the ones used on Agosta-90B - i.e SM39, F17, BlackShark - or is there something else?

On the other hand the U214 would be equipped with Harpoon Block II, DM2A4 and IDAS missile. Marlin is based off the Scorpene and would potentially give IN a good simulator to train with for battle against the core SSK of the PN. The U214 is a different design and could potentially be cheaper than the Marlin.

There is no news about France offering a submarine launch LACM with Marlin - so it would mean that Pakistan's Babur program would have to continue. Basically the local industry would be charged with making the PN's SSKs LACM capable.

I think we're looking at a total of at least 6 new SSKs to replace the Daphne and Agosta-70 by 2019. IMO the winner of the current 3 SSK tender will also win the next one by default. Procure the same type in good number (6+), reduce the unit costs, and standardize as much as possible to ease maintenance and operation costs.
 

uaf

New Member
Yeah right, anything perceived as negative towards Pakistan is considered bias.:rolleyes: Or should I say "facts"?

Here's another fact! China has a massive espionage network aimed at stealing military secrets of not only America but also Europe and Australia. Actually they have a huge network aimed at stealing anything anywheres but it is mostly aimed at American military secrets.

Now add to this mix the fact that China has given extensive help to Pakistan in its nuclear and missile programs. And this help was given secretly or under cloak of the Khan network.

Whats that saying? Where theres smoke theres fire?

If anyone gave China the F-16 it was probably Taiwan. However there is no doubt in my mind that any technology sold to Pakistan would end up in Chinese hands because of the cloak and dagger, and very close, relationship built on China giving them the bomb. There are many fingers to point to and they include the Israelis but the bottom line is if we export these technologies on a large scale they are going to be compromised.

We have a hard enough time protecting the stuff on our own shores.
Its not the first time you spoke against Pakistan, Islam ,China or Russia without any concrete prove on the other hand its very easy for us to talk about Vietnam ( Hundreds of thousands killed unnecessarily) , IRAQ ( thousands killed and hundreds being killed everyday only for oil) and Abu Ghaaraib prison (a grand trophy) with ground realities of atrocities that were made and still going on and on ………..

This is not a thread for your filthy politics don’t try to flame it and what ever you have in your mind or happened with you in past try to get it out or rather visit a ……….. Yea

I am still surprised like I said in past how you didn’t get any warning from any moderator or even banned from this forum you have done a lot than those who were banned for flaming few threads.
 

kato

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
On the other hand the U214 would be equipped with Harpoon Block II, DM2A4 and IDAS missile.
uh, no IDAS. no 214 or 212A will be able to use IDAS. Germany is _considering_ it for the future 212B.
 

Systems Adict

The Bunker Group
Verified Defense Pro
To dilute the topic slightly, but to generate further discussion,I have a question.


...Why is Pakistan not looking at 3/6 Kilo's from Russia ??


These boats have been popular exports to other nations in Asia & the Middle East (Including China & Iran), and are supposedly amongst the quietest around at this time.


Your comments please.

Systems Adict
 

Schumacher

New Member
To dilute the topic slightly, but to generate further discussion,I have a question.

...Why is Pakistan not looking at 3/6 Kilo's from Russia ??

These boats have been popular exports to other nations in Asia & the Middle East (Including China & Iran), and are supposedly amongst the quietest around at this time.

Your comments please.

Systems Adict
I think it's simply because that the 'talk' that Kilos are among the quietest has little truth, i.e. the French & German boats are much better.
China & Iran had no other choice but the Kilos.
 

ahussains

New Member
I think it's simply because that the 'talk' that Kilos are among the quietest has little truth, i.e. the French & German boats are much better.
China & Iran had no other choice but the Kilos.
Going towards the russians make some difficult to PN they are not familiar with the russian technology while westren systems are widley used By the PN.. But i also suggest at least pick some medium or samll size equipments from russia and start it for the Futures BIGGER systems..

:cool:
 

BilalK

New Member
Not sure if the Russians would be ready for that kind of relationship. Also, doesn't India also operate Kilo submarines? For the reason I think Marlin will lose against U214...I think the fact that India has Kilo would pull PN away from it.
 
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