U-214 for Pakistan

[webmaster]

Rich and others, please get back to the TOPIC at hand. Who gave what technology to whom is not the concern in this thread.

As someone already mentioned, countries are selling weapons to Pakistan because of confidence and knowledge that none of their technologies would make it outside of Pakistan, let alone to China. If large defense firms and governments can make that decision, assuming they know what they are doing, then someone's babbling about F-16 technology to china or some other technology for that matter holds no credibility.

There is no solid evidence that any western technology from Pakistan went to China, not a single thread. Instead of following the fantasies cooked in news rooms, why don't you follow the news that has been coming out regarding non-pakistanis acquiring technologies in the US and selling them to China? Do you know why Indian-US nuclear deal is at risk?

China bought bomber secrets
Military Aviation
China obtained secret stealth technology used on B-2 bomber engines from a Hawaii-based spy ring in a compromise US officials say will allow Beijing to copy or counter a key weapon in the Pentagon's new strategy against China. Read More...

Expatriates in Canada Pressured To Spy: Report
Defence & Security
Foreign countries are seeking to manipulate Canada’s large immigrant populations to obtain intelligence and technological secrets, according to the latest annual report by Canada’s spy service. Read More...

Nov 8, 2005
Four Charged with Stealing US Military Secrets, Spying for China
Defence & Security
LOS ANGELES: A judge in California has ordered two Chinese nationals held without bail on charges of stealing U.S. warship technology. Authorities say the suspects are part of a scheme involving two brothers and their wives, and all four face criminal charges. Read More...

Of course, there are more news stories.

Now get back to the topic, please!

 

[Rich]

There would be no solid evidence of Chinese help with Pakistan's nuclear/missile program, and the Khan network, If Libya hadn't ratt'ed them out when they buckled under to UN demands. To this day the Pakistanis deny Government involvement. Deny, deny, deny, deny.

#1, Submarine technology is #1 on China's theft list. Most of all quieting technology.

#2, Pakistan owes China for their nuclear/missile programs. Both of which have been shrouded in denial and secrecy.

I mean this isn't rocket science here. You dont need a house to fall on your head to figure out Chinese scientists are going to get access to this stuff.

It just so happens I agree with your assessment that others are as big, or bigger, a risk of giving the Chinese our technology. The biggest threat being within our own borders.

 

[webmaster]

There would be no solid evidence of Chinese help with Pakistan's nuclear/missile program, and the Khan network, If Libya hadn't ratt'ed them out when they buckled under to UN demands. To this day the Pakistanis deny Government involvement. Deny, deny, deny, deny

.

What was the main source of Khan network supplies and support? Companies based in Europe and US. Khan's network was part of a black market which is still in business... because snakes tail was chopped off(khan) not its head (the companies that support it).

But that is not the topic here, is it? So, let's move along.

#1, Submarine technology is #1 on China's theft list. Most of all quieting technology.

And links above in my post show that its Pakistanis who are stealing submarine, bomber and aerospace secrets from US or are these non-pakistanis who are doing it?

#2, Pakistan owes China for their nuclear/missile programs. Both of which have been shrouded in denial and secrecy.

No body owes nothing to anybody. It is matter of research and KNOWLEDGE which khan brought with him from Europe, not china. The world works that way... countries form and break alliances as they see fit because it favors their national security. Many people would like to make similar assumptions about US-Israel, US-Iraq of 80s, US-Iran of 60s and 70s....

Even if we take these assumptions about Pakistan seriously, why are western companies and governments today still selling (even ToT in certain cases) weapons and defense technology to Pakistan? If they didn't have confidence in Pakistan, they would not be doing it. The fact that westernt governments/defence companies are selling weapons to Pakistan to this day proves that assumptions are nothing but lies and fabrications cooked against Pakistan and China.

PS: If western governments and companies today come out and say we are not going to sell anything to Pakistan because of such and such reason, I would be the first one to condemn Pakistan and China for hurting international defence community's trust.

End of the story, PLEASE GET BACK TO THE TOPIC of U-214 for Pakistan navy.

 

[pshamim]

Wonder why such upsetting posts? US, France, and China show no concern and have not expressed any fear. I can understand if these posts come from the countries who are never happy and start a propaganda war anytime Pakistan is going to acquire defence equipment.

Any how, if others want to discuss the U-214 and its capabilities verses other platforms, they are most welcome.

This forum will not be allowed to deteriorate through such ranting and frivolous postings, no matter who it is.

Leave your anti India/anti Pakistan bias when you come to this forum and if you cannot control yourself, go somewhere else.

 

[Rich]

.

What was the main source of Khan network supplies and support? Companies based in Europe and US. Khan's network was part of a black market which is still in business... because snakes tail was chopped off(khan) not its head (the companies that support it).

But that is not the topic here, is it? So, let's move along.



And links above in my post show that its Pakistanis who are stealing submarine, bomber and aerospace secrets from US or are these non-pakistanis who are doing it?



No body owes nothing to anybody. It is matter of research and KNOWLEDGE which khan brought with him from Europe, not china. The world works that way... countries form and break alliances as they see fit because it favors their national security. Many people would like to make similar assumptions about US-Israel, US-Iraq of 80s, US-Iran of 60s and 70s....

Even if we take these assumptions about Pakistan seriously, why are western companies and governments today still selling (even ToT in certain cases) weapons and defense technology to Pakistan? If they didn't have confidence in Pakistan, they would not be doing it. The fact that westernt governments/defence companies are selling weapons to Pakistan to this day proves that assumptions are nothing but lies and fabrications cooked against Pakistan and China.

PS: If western governments and companies today come out and say we are not going to sell anything to Pakistan because of such and such reason, I would be the first one to condemn Pakistan and China for hurting international defence community's trust.

End of the story, PLEASE GET BACK TO THE TOPIC of U-214 for Pakistan navy.

You are asking me a bunch of questions and then telling me I cant answer. Which is it?:unknown

Anyhoo, I'll drown my upsettness, my bias, my downright murderous intent, and post a picture of a Pakistani Daphne class submarine at the Gwadar naval base. http://www.mediamax.com/rich46yo/Hosted/pak-daphne.jpg

 

[pshamim]

You are asking me a bunch of questions and then telling me I cant answer. Which is it?:unknown

Anyhoo, I'll drown my upsettness, my bias, my downright murderous intent, and post a picture of a Pakistani Daphne class submarine at the Gwadar naval base. http://www.mediamax.com/rich46yo/Hosted/pak-daphne.jpg

Rich, How old this picture is? Daphne class submarines have already been decomissioned by Pakistan Navy in 2006

 

[SABRE]

You are asking me a bunch of questions and then telling me I cant answer. Which is it?:unknown

Anyhoo, I'll drown my upsettness, my bias, my downright murderous intent, and post a picture of a Pakistani Daphne class submarine at the Gwadar naval base. http://www.mediamax.com/rich46yo/Hosted/pak-daphne.jpg

So whats the big deal??? Its in Pakistani waters. However, for your knowldge; there is no Naval Base at Gwadar, hence Submarines cant dock there. The work on Naval Base in Gwadar is still under planning & not a brick has been layed.

The picture its from 2007 but as Pshamim puts it & everyone with even a minor knowledge of PN will put it; the Daphne class subs have been decomissioned in 2006.

 

[contedicavour]

One thing I find surprising about PN procurement is that they are satisfied with Chinese surface naval vessels to replace the ex RN Type 21s, but are apparently not even considering buying Chinese SSKs. The latest Yuan type may not be in the same league as the Marlin or the U214, but could be a good value for money acquisition. Besides, China would probably be willing to help out the PN in installing cruise missiles aboard. This choice would be all the more acceptable if the PN has in mind for their SSKs a primary role against Indian surface naval assets (vs a secondary role of countering Indian SSKs).

cheers

 

[Falstaff]

One thing I find surprising about PN procurement is that they are satisfied with Chinese surface naval vessels to replace the ex RN Type 21s, but are apparently not even considering buying Chinese SSKs. The latest Yuan type may not be in the same league as the Marlin or the U214, but could be a good value for money acquisition.

I can imagine a few points:
1. As far as the submarines are concerned, AFAIK the Chinese can't offer a working AIP-system which the Pakistanis are keen on;
2. They diversify their equipment sources which makes sense in political as well as financial terms: they buy western high tech as far as they can afford, boosting their capabilities, building ties with the west; at the same time they buy cheaper Chinese equipment, remaining their strong ties with China and using these ties to gain technological capabilities. I think it's a very interesting mix... e.g. the F-16 Block 52/ JF-17 hi/lo fighter acquisition strategy.

My understanding of the expressed concerns is that France and Germany aren't that much concerned about technology theft at this point- at least I didn't read about it. I don't know much about the Marlin, but I know that in some respects the U-214 is not as advanced as the U-212 which is only offered to our closest allies (e.g. Italy) and the U-214 for Pakistan incorporates many OTS solutions.
However, given the fact that some observe the situation in Pakistan with concern (see BBC or GlobalSecurity), some people just don't feel comfortable with the fact that there might be nuclear armed submarines roaming around. If muslim extremists take over power in Pakistan that's a massive threat.
In the BITS article I referred to the author imagines our submarines on both sides (Dolphin and U-214) playing "Hunt for Green October".
BTW, in this weeks "Der Spiegel" there is an article that says that the Pakistani military prefers the German submarines but France constantly improves their offer regarding offsets, backed by the French government.

 

[uaf]

There would be no solid evidence of Chinese help with Pakistan's nuclear/missile program, and the Khan network, If Libya hadn't ratt'ed them out when they buckled under to UN demands. To this day the Pakistanis deny Government involvement. Deny, deny, deny, deny.

#1, Submarine technology is #1 on China's theft list. Most of all quieting technology.

#2, Pakistan owes China for their nuclear/missile programs. Both of which have been shrouded in denial and secrecy.

I mean this isn't rocket science here. You dont need a house to fall on your head to figure out Chinese scientists are going to get access to this stuff.

It just so happens I agree with your assessment that others are as big, or bigger, a risk of giving the Chinese our technology. The biggest threat being within our own borders.

 Don’t you know how America and Russia was fighting for German Technology during WW II ( Missiles and Aircraft)

 How Israel did got the hands on nuclear technology?? Who was supporting them?? (and do until now)

 Who was the main supplier of Chemical weapons to Iraq (during Iran Iraq War)?? And than came back to destroy it.

And the list goes on and on ……

You posts don’t make sense at all let me give an advice get out of your shell there is a whole big world around you rather than bashing China or Pakistan in every thread.

End Of discussion from my side

Back to the Topic U-214 for PN ………………………………

 

[BilalK]

contedicavour

One thing I find surprising about PN procurement is that they are satisfied with Chinese surface naval vessels to replace the ex RN Type 21s

Personally I think the overall PN strategy involves the Milgem and F-22P working as defensive surface combatants in greater numbers - directly replacing the 6 Type-21s. Beyond that there are still 4 larger frigates under requirement - and before that, PN wants 6 OHPs.

However, given the fact that some observe the situation in Pakistan with concern (see BBC or GlobalSecurity), some people just don't feel comfortable with the fact that there might be nuclear armed submarines roaming around. If muslim extremists take over power in Pakistan that's a massive threat.
In the BITS article I referred to the author imagines our submarines on both sides (Dolphin and U-214) playing "Hunt for Green October".

Well Pakistan does have a naval Babur LACM in development, and I imagine the first of this series would be a submarine launched missile. Although potentially nuclear armed, I doubt Muslim extremists would gain power in Pakistan - there are simply too many barriers and lines, starting with the moderate military.

BTW, in this weeks "Der Spiegel" there is an article that says that the Pakistani military prefers the German submarines but France constantly improves their offer regarding offsets, backed by the French government.

That's interesting, however I thought Germany also offers some attractive offsets?

 

[Falstaff]

That's interesting, however I thought Germany also offers some attractive offsets?

Of course, but traditionally the French government is much more involved in such matters. In the "Spiegel" they say France offers several hotel complexes as well as a car factory. And in february Monsieur Chirac wrote a letter to Musharraf to convince him.

 

[powerslavenegi]

There is no solid evidence that any western technology from Pakistan went to China, not a single thread.
Instead of following the fantasies cooked in news rooms, why don't you follow the news that has been coming out regarding non-pakistanis acquiring technologies in the US and selling them to China? Do you know why Indian-US nuclear deal is at risk?

Just a net pick while webmasters are quick to rebut anyone coming up with the espionage issues relating to Pakistan and China,they do not even refarin from making false claims,its ok if people over here are uncomfortable with discussing some issues but abusing mod powers and pointing fingers which cannot be substantiated is uncalled for.

If DT community wishes we shall have a discussion with appropriate proofs and evidence and shall separate the chaff from wheat,its not the first time mods in DT have shown their personal biases while policing a thread.

In this case Mod has something to say about espionage

Indians, Taiwanese and others[/URL] (non-pakistanis) acquiring technologies in the US and selling them to China? Do you know why

Ok let us consider these sources to be true ,now why not use the same yard stick and make a catalogue of all the news in the world dailies about the espionage and clandestine ops being pursued by various nations ,we can have a nice DT awards ceremony for the winners.:vamp

 

[Rich]

Rich, How old this picture is? Daphne class submarines have already been decomissioned by Pakistan Navy in 2006

No doubt its about 3 years old. For gosh sakes I was trying to lighten up the mood so I posted a picture from Google Earth. There's no question its a Daphne because its exactly 57 meters long.

I dont know what they call the place but its a small naval dock at the coordinates of Gwadar.

There is no "big deal". There is no "deal" of any kind. Sheesh!

Here's a pic of what looks like a U-212 and a U-206 at dock in Kiel Germany. http://www.mediamax.com/rich46yo/Hosted/Keil subs.jpg I had a pic of one of Israels new German subs but cant find it.

The 214s are going to be a lovely addition to the PN, which has come a long ways in a short time. Submarines are the way to go, because boats like the 214 would tie up an inordinate number of Indian navy platforms in the simple act of trying to find them.

And thats the ticket to a naval victory, or at least survival by the PN. Use maritime strike and boats to prevent your enemy from getting his groove on. Add those speedy little missile boats to the mix and you can bring the war to his home shores. Like the PN once did with a gunboat attack on an Indian port.

Get a technological edge, fight smart, fight at night, and make your enemy fight your battle. The Aussies have a similar game plan, as do the Singaporeans. The navy with the lesser platforms can win, or at least survive.

The last thing the PN wants is for the IN to get organized for a successful blockade and bombing campaign. These new boats are a smart move.

 

[webmaster]

Just a net pick while webmasters are quick to rebut anyone coming up with the espionage issues relating to Pakistan and China,they do not even refarin from making false claims,its ok if people over here are uncomfortable with discussing some issues but abusing mod powers and pointing fingers which cannot be substantiated is uncalled for.

If DT community wishes we shall have a discussion with appropriate proofs and evidence and shall separate the chaff from wheat,its not the first time mods in DT have shown their personal biases while policing a thread.

In this case Mod has something to say about espionage

Thanks for bringing it up. I don't believe, I abused any power... mods/admins are entitled to their opinion as much as anybody else.

My response is purely based on news stories from the world media and the fact that western governemnts/companies are still selling technology to Pakistan. It doesn't take "personal bias" to realize that. Anyhow, I've edited the sensitive parts of my response, that should help settle the issue.

As far as bias and other allegations... well, Rich has had issues with taking stabs at Pakistan and I don't like getting nasty complaints from our South Asian friends either just like I don't like receiving complaints about user comments from Indian, Aussies, Germans, United States.

Ok let us consider these sources to be true ,now why not use the same yard stick and make a catalogue of all the news in the world dailies about the espionage and clandestine ops being pursued by various nations ,we can have a nice DT awards ceremony for the winners.:vamp

Sure, why not? But keep in mind, one rule applies:

If a country is involved in espionage and passing on sensitive defence technology then no western government or company should be selling them anymore weapons. If we can go with that rule, the race is on, go get 'em.

Thanks and enjoy!

 

[radiosilence]

However, given the fact that some observe the situation in Pakistan with concern , some people just don't feel comfortable with the fact that there might be nuclear armed submarines roaming around. If muslim extremists take over power in Pakistan that's a massive threat.

Is there a precedence of extremist taking over power in Pakistan?

In the BITS article I referred to the author imagines our submarines on both sides (Dolphin and U-214) playing "Hunt for Green October".

I don't think Pakistan poses a threat to Israel. The govt of Pakistan has reached out to the Israelis on several occasions recently. Btw, the German govt. knew the Isrealis were fielding nuclear cruise missiles on their subs and they still continue to supply them with 2 additional ones. The Israelis requested a few torpedo tubes to be modify in order to launch nuclear Cruise missiles. I am not aware of any uproar then.

 

[Waylander]

There were several articles in the german tv news, newspapers and magazines about this topic and wether we should "sell" them (Or make them a gift ).

 

[umair]

Apart from the better offsets on offer, the french have also offered a weapons package containing the naval version of the SCALP cruise missile. This would give the Marlins (if selected) a pretty robust land attack capability.

 

[pshamim]

Apart from the better offsets on offer, the french have also offered a weapons package containing the naval version of the SCALP cruise missile. This would give the Marlins (if selected) a pretty robust land attack capability.

I will agree that DCN is trying hard to sell the Marlin with the full backing of the French Goverment. Even French President has talked to President Musharraf to persuade Pakistan to go for Marlin.

But I am apprehensive about SCALP offer. Will it not violate the MTCR regime?

 

[SABRE]

Is there a precedence of extremist taking over power in Pakistan?

No, the extemist - whom I prefer to call conservatives (as not all of them are anti-Americans & pro-Taliban, although they sound like it ... & what so even if they are?) are not taking over Pakistan. In fact its now almost certain that the next government would be formed by Pakistan People's Party Parlimentarians (PPPP) the most secular party in Pakistan.

I don't think Pakistan poses a threat to Israel. The govt of Pakistan has reached out to the Israelis on several occasions recently.

Its complicated. Both Pakistan & Israel dont consider each other threats, well at least not direct military threats, but they do hold suspicions. Pakistan has reached out to Israel on several occasions for sure, the most recent was last week. But as far as I know, both countries would turn defensive (not in war like sense) when considering each other.

Btw, the German govt. knew the Isrealis were fielding nuclear cruise missiles on their subs and they still continue to supply them with 2 additional ones. The Israelis requested a few torpedo tubes to be modify in order to launch nuclear Cruise missiles. I am not aware of any uproar then.

Read Samson Option: Israel's Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy. Germans wont appear least bit hippocratic compared to USA after that.

I will agree that DCN is trying hard to sell the Marlin with the full backing of the French Goverment. Even French President has talked to President Musharraf to persuade Pakistan to go for Marlin.

But I am apprehensive about SCALP offer. Will it not violate the MTCR regime?

France is going through election phase. I wouldnt bet on the out going French President's words. One reason for Pakistan prolonging the decision is the elections.

We also have to consider that we are near our election phase as well & as far as our scenario is concerned it seems PPPP is going to make the government; & we all know that they like to cut down on military budgets (this may put addition submarines out of the scene, unless Musharaf signs the deal before PPPP forms its government).