how would the UK defend from ICBMs?

[kinggodzilla87]

During the Kennedy administration, there was an atom bomb in the Soviet Embassy, probably brought in in pieces through diplomatic pouches. Kennedy knew it was there, but everyone kept quiet about it. The bomb was eventually removed, I think.

I got this from Time magazine, a couple of years ago.

Think we did the same thing to them but it could not be fully poved

 

[DoC_FouALieR]

During the Kennedy administration, there was an atom bomb in the Soviet Embassy, probably brought in in pieces through diplomatic pouches. Kennedy knew it was there, but everyone kept quiet about it. The bomb was eventually removed, I think.

Wow! That's.. crazy! This thing and others like that thing of the Russian subs setted up to look like a chinese one to deliver a nuke on Hawai, it makes me feel that we've been very lucky to survive Cold war!

 

[Rich]

Wow! That's.. crazy! This thing and others like that thing of the Russian subs setted up to look like a chinese one to deliver a nuke on Hawai, it makes me feel that we've been very lucky to survive Cold war!

We are lucky. Enjoy the Link. http://www.atomicarchive.com/History/coldwar/index.shtml

 

[KGB]

During the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Soviets ordered some submarines to run the US blockade and enter cuba, I think they were romeo class diesel subs. Anyway, they were detected and subjected to aggressive tactics, and eventually forced to surface.

By that time, the crews of the subs were at the limits of their nerves, due to the conditions and weather. At least one of the subs had a nuclear tipped torpedo in the tube; and vague instructions from their commanders regarding the rules of engagement. The commander wasn't given any clear instructions regarding whether to fire or not; yet was sent to run a blockade (which by old conventions is an act of war). The purpose of the vague instructions one can surmise was the desire of the senior brass to be able to distance himself from any blame whatever the outcome. The sub commander though had to decide between surfacing in front of the USN which was nearly like surrender and possibly punishable, or firing the nuclear torpedo.

Anyway, the situation resulted in a confused, stressed out commander pointing a nuclear torpedo at a US task force with no oversight. We are lucky he had the courage to not start ww3.

I got this from "Rising Tide"

 

[gf0012-aust]

Actually, I think you'll find that all 5 subs had 1 nuke each. all but one sub was intercepted and that the ASW Group had orders to sink them as soon as they showed any sign of aggression. The russian sub commanders had also been given a weapons free directive. Its interesting to note that the ruissian commander interviewed made it quite clear that he had no desire to launch a nuke torpedo at his particular ASW group as he knew it would start WW3.

What he didn't know - and what all the russian commanders never knew was that the 5 USN ASW hunter killer groups had followed all the subs across the atlantic. As it turns out that was due to the fact that the US had also tapped the Northern Fleet seabed communication cables in some parts. (probably by the USS Parches predecessor)

During the Cuban Missile Crisis, the Soviets ordered some submarines to run the US blockade and enter cuba, I think they were romeo class diesel subs. Anyway, they were detected and subjected to aggressive tactics, and eventually forced to surface.

By that time, the crews of the subs were at the limits of their nerves, due to the conditions and weather. At least one of the subs had a nuclear tipped torpedo in the tube; and vague instructions from their commanders regarding the rules of engagement. The commander wasn't given any clear instructions regarding whether to fire or not; yet was sent to run a blockade (which by old conventions is an act of war). The purpose of the vague instructions one can surmise was the desire of the senior brass to be able to distance himself from any blame whatever the outcome. The sub commander though had to decide between surfacing in front of the USN which was nearly like surrender and possibly punishable, or firing the nuclear torpedo.

Anyway, the situation resulted in a confused, stressed out commander pointing a nuclear torpedo at a US task force with no oversight. We are lucky he had the courage to not start ww3.

I got this from "Rising Tide"

 

[Tasman]

We are lucky. Enjoy the Link. http://www.atomicarchive.com/History/coldwar/index.shtml

Thanks for this link Rich - lots of interesting reading to wade through as winter approaches downunder.

I grew up in the 50s and 60s and we always felt pretty safe in Australia. In hindsight though, nowhere would have been safe if nuclear war between the USSR and the USA had started and it perhaps needed only one silly action or mistake for it to actually happen. The posts by KGB and gf show just how close we were from one error of judgement causing disaster.

Cheers

 

[metro]

I'm not angry - I just get a tad frustrated when throw away comments are made.

Apart from my prev comments there are other realities here.

• Military aircraft over civil controled airspace are "hot" - ie they emit "normally". hence thats why the rapier tracked the aircraft - it was lit up like a normal emitting aircraft and could be easily tracked
• The USAF is not going to bring its primary LO platform into open sky and open area flying space and have it "emission negative". Its dumb, it achieves nothing and its an opportunity for any other interrogating system to pick up aircraft characteristics when emission managed - something they won't do.

So, if i might have "mistakenly locked on" to a B-2 with my-first-sony handy-cam (with built in IR, plus an external IR) which was flying at an airshow near my house, i don't need to keep my special filming techniques classified anymore (...if my film exists anyway)?

[*]I tried to give you examples of how difficult it was for a fully war alert battlespace to pick up a first generation stealth platform. The B2 is an order of magnitude better than an F-117. The Saudi sensor system at their AFB in Southern Saudi Arabia was an order of magnitude more powerful than anything that a rapier unit could hope to achieve.
[*]Stealth aircraft on combat missions are given restricted corridors to fly in - thats so other aircraft don't smack into them by accident because they can't sense them

Could this, "restricted corridor" concept, explain the "lucky shot concept..." or at least what can happen when an F-117 flies down the same "lane," everynight, and is at the exact same spot everynight, at exactly 8:37PM in the Balkins?


Just Playing!

RE:OP
I think the question is valid. Iran has become a Russian playground. I believe that US Congress knew as early as (perhaps this is when USINTEL saw the first test) 1994-5 that Russia had sold the "blueprints" for the SS-4 Missile (Shihab-4) to Iran. Why would Iran want a missile that can hit anywhere in Europe, when their most distant "threat" is Israel?

Iran knows the immediate response it would get from Israel if any of those mssiles have a trajectory that hints at flying towards tel-aviv (2 nukes land and Israel is done), but what if a couple missles were launched at the UK from Iran(let's just say that Russian/Iranian Kilo Class Subs, cannot carry a SLBMs)?

-Does the US turn Iran into glass?
-Does NATO respond by turning Iran into Glass?
-Does anyone: Russia, China, Europe, US, stop the UK from responding?

Iran "proves" she's not deterrable--not afraid of suicide--but they will threaten the saudis, Iraq, and the rest of the Gulf (oil) if... retaliated against.

-Everyone buying Russian Oil? I'm not so sure about that?!?!

how would states' react?

-As for suitcase nukes; I just don't think the Russians are that dumb (good prpaganda though). Any "agent" walking around with a nuke could get nervous and "double back" home!

 

[metro]

I'm not angry - I just get a tad frustrated when throw away comments are made.

Apart from my prev comments there are other realities here.

• Military aircraft over civil controled airspace are "hot" - ie they emit "normally". hence thats why the rapier tracked the aircraft - it was lit up like a normal emitting aircraft and could be easily tracked
• The USAF is not going to bring its primary LO platform into open sky and open area flying space and have it "emission negative". Its dumb, it achieves nothing and its an opportunity for any other interrogating system to pick up aircraft characteristics when emission managed - something they won't do.

So, if i might have "mistakenly locked on" to a B-2 with my-first-sony handy-cam (with built in IR, plus an external IR) which was flying at an airshow near my house, i don't need to keep my special filming techniques classified anymore (...if my film exists anyway)?

[*]I tried to give you examples of how difficult it was for a fully war alert battlespace to pick up a first generation stealth platform. The B2 is an order of magnitude better than an F-117. The Saudi sensor system at their AFB in Southern Saudi Arabia was an order of magnitude more powerful than anything that a rapier unit could hope to achieve.
[*]Stealth aircraft on combat missions are given restricted corridors to fly in - thats so other aircraft don't smack into them by accident because they can't sense them

Could this, "restricted corridor" concept, explain the "lucky shot concept..." or at least what can happen when an F-117 flies down the same "lane," everynight, and is at the exact same spot everynight, at exactly 8:37PM in the Balkins?


Just Playing!

RE:OP
I think the question is valid. Iran has become a Russian playground. I believe that US Congress knew as early as (perhaps this is when USINTEL saw the first test) 1994-5 that Russia had sold the "blueprints" for the SS-4 Missile (Shihab-4) to Iran. Why would Iran want a missile that can hit anywhere in Europe, when their most distant "threat" is Israel?

Iran knows the immediate response it would get from Israel if any of those mssiles have a trajectory that hints at flying towards tel-aviv (2 nukes land and Israel is done), but what if a couple missles were launched at the UK from Iran(let's just say that Russian/Iranian Kilo Class Subs, cannot carry a SLBMs)?

-Does the US turn Iran into glass?
-Does NATO respond by turning Iran into Glass?
-Does anyone: Russia, China, Europe, US, stop the UK from responding?

Iran "proves" she's not deterrable--not afraid of suicide--but they will threaten the saudis, Iraq, and the rest of the Gulf (oil) if... retaliated against.

-Everyone buying Russian Oil? I'm not so sure about that?!?!

how would states' react?

-As for suitcase nukes; I just don't think the Russians are that dumb (good prpaganda though). Any "agent" walking around with a nuke could get nervous and "double back" home!

 

[metro]

I'm not angry - I just get a tad frustrated when throw away comments are made.

Apart from my prev comments there are other realities here.


[*]Military aircraft over civil controled airspace are "hot" - ie they emit "normally". hence thats why the rapier tracked the aircraft - it was lit up like a normal emitting aircraft and could be easily tracked
[*]The USAF is not going to bring its primary LO platform into open sky and open area flying space and have it "emission negative". Its dumb, it achieves nothing and its an opportunity for any other interrogating system to pick up aircraft characteristics when emission managed - something they won't do.

So, if i might have "mistakenly locked on" to a B-2 with my-first-sony handy-cam (with built in IR, plus an external IR) which was flying at an airshow near my house, i don't need to keep my special filming techniques classified anymore (...if my film exists anyway)?

[*]I tried to give you examples of how difficult it was for a fully war alert battlespace to pick up a first generation stealth platform. The B2 is an order of magnitude better than an F-117. The Saudi sensor system at their AFB in Southern Saudi Arabia was an order of magnitude more powerful than anything that a rapier unit could hope to achieve.
[*]Stealth aircraft on combat missions are given restricted corridors to fly in - thats so other aircraft don't smack into them by accident because they can't sense them

Could this, "restricted corridor" concept, explain the "lucky shot concept..." or at least what can happen when an F-117 flies down the same "lane," everynight, and is at the exact same spot everynight, at exactly 8:37PM in the Balkins?


Just Playing!

RE:OP
I think the question is valid. Iran has become a Russian playground. I believe that US Congress knew as early as (perhaps this is when USINTEL saw the first test) 1994-5 that Russia had sold the "blueprints" for the SS-4 Missile (Shihab-4) to Iran. Why would Iran want a missile that can hit anywhere in Europe, when their most distant "threat" is Israel?

Iran knows the immediate response it would get from Israel if any of those mssiles have a trajectory that hints at flying towards tel-aviv (2 nukes land and Israel is done), but what if a couple missles were launched at the UK from Iran(let's just say that Russian/Iranian Kilo Class Subs, cannot carry a SLBMs)?

-Does the US turn Iran into glass?
-Does NATO respond by turning Iran into Glass?
-Does anyone: Russia, China, Europe, US, stop the UK from responding?

Iran "proves" she's not deterrable--not afraid of suicide--but they will threaten the saudis, Iraq, and the rest of the Gulf (oil) if... retaliated against.

-Everyone buying Russian Oil? I'm not so sure about that?!?!

how would states' react?

-As for suitcase nukes; I just don't think the Russians are that dumb (good prpaganda though). Any "agent" walking around with a nuke could get nervous and "double back" home!

 

[metro]

I'm not angry - I just get a tad frustrated when throw away comments are made.

Apart from my prev comments there are other realities here.


[*]Military aircraft over civil controled airspace are "hot" - ie they emit "normally". hence thats why the rapier tracked the aircraft - it was lit up like a normal emitting aircraft and could be easily tracked
[*]The USAF is not going to bring its primary LO platform into open sky and open area flying space and have it "emission negative". Its dumb, it achieves nothing and its an opportunity for any other interrogating system to pick up aircraft characteristics when emission managed - something they won't do.

So, if i might have "mistakenly locked on" to a B-2 with my-first-sony handy-cam (with built in IR, plus an external IR) which was flying at an airshow near my house, i don't need to keep my special filming techniques classified anymore (...if my film exists anyway)?

[*]I tried to give you examples of how difficult it was for a fully war alert battlespace to pick up a first generation stealth platform. The B2 is an order of magnitude better than an F-117. The Saudi sensor system at their AFB in Southern Saudi Arabia was an order of magnitude more powerful than anything that a rapier unit could hope to achieve.
[*]Stealth aircraft on combat missions are given restricted corridors to fly in - thats so other aircraft don't smack into them by accident because they can't sense them

Could this, "restricted corridor" concept, explain the "lucky shot concept..." or at least what can happen when an F-117 flies down the same "lane," everynight, and is at the exact same spot everynight, at exactly 8:37PM in the Balkins?


Just Playing!

RE:OP
I think the question is valid. Iran has become a Russian playground. I believe that US Congress knew as early as (perhaps this is when USINTEL saw the first test) 1994-5 that Russia had sold the "blueprints" for the SS-4 Missile (Shihab-4) to Iran. Why would Iran want a missile that can hit anywhere in Europe, when their most distant "threat" is Israel?

Iran knows the immediate response it would get from Israel if any of those mssiles have a trajectory that hints at flying towards tel-aviv (2 nukes land and Israel is done), but what if a couple missles were launched at the UK from Iran(let's just say that Russian/Iranian Kilo Class Subs, cannot carry a SLBMs)?

-Does the US turn Iran into glass?
-Does NATO respond by turning Iran into Glass?
-Does anyone: Russia, China, Europe, US, stop the UK from responding?

Iran "proves" she's not deterrable--not afraid of suicide--but they will threaten the saudis, Iraq, and the rest of the Gulf (oil) if... retaliated against.

-Everyone buying Russian Oil? I'm not so sure about that?!?!

how would states' react?

-As for suitcase nukes; I just don't think the Russians are that dumb (good prpaganda though). Any "agent" walking around with a nuke could get nervous and "double back" home!

 

[metro]

QUOTE]I'm not angry - I just get a tad frustrated when throw away comments are made.

Apart from my prev comments there are other realities here.


[*]Military aircraft over civil controled airspace are "hot" - ie they emit "normally". hence thats why the rapier tracked the aircraft - it was lit up like a normal emitting aircraft and could be easily tracked
[*]The USAF is not going to bring its primary LO platform into open sky and open area flying space and have it "emission negative". Its dumb, it achieves nothing and its an opportunity for any other interrogating system to pick up aircraft characteristics when emission managed - something they won't do.
[/QUOTE]

So, if i might have "mistakenly locked on" to a B-2 with my-first-sony handy-cam (with built in IR, plus an external IR) which was flying at an airshow near my house, i don't need to keep my special filming techniques classified anymore (...if my film exists anyway)?

[*]I tried to give you examples of how difficult it was for a fully war alert battlespace to pick up a first generation stealth platform. The B2 is an order of magnitude better than an F-117. The Saudi sensor system at their AFB in Southern Saudi Arabia was an order of magnitude more powerful than anything that a rapier unit could hope to achieve.
[*]Stealth aircraft on combat missions are given restricted corridors to fly in - thats so other aircraft don't smack into them by accident because they can't sense them

Could this, "restricted corridor" concept, explain the "lucky shot concept..." or at least what can happen when an F-117 flies down the same "lane," everynight, and is at the exact same spot everynight, at exactly 8:37PM in the Balkins?


Just Playing!

RE:OP
I think the question is valid. Iran has become a Russian playground. I believe that US Congress knew as early as (perhaps this is when USINTEL saw the first test) 1994-5 that Russia had sold the "blueprints" for the SS-4 Missile (Shihab-4) to Iran. Why would Iran want a missile that can hit anywhere in Europe, when their most distant "threat" is Israel?

Iran knows the immediate response it would get from Israel if any of those missiles have a trajectory that hints at flying towards tel-aviv (2 nukes land and Israel is done), but what if a couple missles were launched at the UK from Iran(let's just say that Russian/Iranian Kilo Class Subs, cannot carry a SLBMs)?

-Does the US turn Iran into glass?
-Does NATO respond by turning Iran into Glass?
-Does anyone: Russia, China, Europe, US, stop the UK from responding?

Iran "proves" she's not deter able--not afraid of suicide--but they will threaten the saudis, Iraq, and the rest of the Gulf (oil) if... retaliated against.

-Everyone buying Russian Oil? I'm not so sure about that?!?!

how would states' react?

-As for suitcase nukes; I just don't think the Russians are that dumb (good prpaganda though). Any "agent" walking around with a nuke could get nervous and "double back" home!

 

[ahussains]

From which ICBM and WMD UK is worried ?

 

[StingrayOZ]

From which ICBM and WMD UK is worried ?

Proberly from France! Ha.. No seriously there are a number of also rans that now have or will have in the next 15 years ICBM that could possibly reach the UK.

North Korea (and who knows who they will sell that onto), Pakistan (maybe a buyer from NK), India (indigious, but west friendly), Iran (not so happy customer).

Ir signatures are a different case to radar. Given the B2 mission I wouldn't be suprised if Ir wise they aren't that black. If a B2 has flown over your house under normal war time conditions, you had better bunker down before nuclear winter sets in. Your lock may be fine for a human to see with a zooming camera, but insufficent for a missile to see.

How far away from you from the B2?

 

[metro]

I apologize for all the posts!

Proberly from France! Ha.. No seriously there are a number of also rans that now have or will have in the next 15 years ICBM that could possibly reach the UK.

North Korea (and who knows who they will sell that onto), Pakistan (maybe a buyer from NK), India (indigious, but west friendly), Iran (not so happy customer).

In the mid-1990's, a French company did have a $5B "Energy deal" with Iran. US companies can't buy/sell to foreign companies that sell certain "things" to Iran (in brief). The "French Company" wasn't going hurt itself with the US, however, President Clinton found an "exception" in the law. If the President finds it imperitive to US national security interests, he/she can use a "Presidential waiver." Clinton somehow saw it as a matter of US national security interests (he used the waiver), to allow the "Energy Deal" to go to Iran. That money helped Iran continue its payments to Russia.

Ir signatures are a different case to radar. Given the B2 mission I wouldn't be suprised if Ir wise they aren't that black. If a B2 has flown over your house under normal war time conditions, you had better bunker down before nuclear winter sets in. Your lock may be fine for a human to see with a zooming camera, but insufficent for a missile to see.
How far away from you from the B2?

I was sot of joking. Sometimes before the Superbowl, the World Series, or at some air shows, a B2 or F-117s will do a flyby. Any sony video camera (day/night/Ir), anyone that can see them can film them... It just looks like a Dark B2, contrasted against a Grainy Green background.
-If it were war time, and B2s were flying, I'd definitely try to get some film of quick "Global Warming," jump in "my bunker" and then come out to document a long winter...

 

[knightz33]

what would happen if the UK was attcked by ballistic missiles? how would we defend ourselves? would we shoot them down with intercepter aircraft? as far as im aware the UK has no anti missile system eg patriot, arrow.

Haha...well, its almost impossible to shoot down a missile with a plane. An average Ballastic missile travels at about 3.5km/s dude...thats very very very fast....Correct me if i'm wrong, well, basically, Britain defends itself by military deterrence. Furthermore, it has USA as its ally...that would give Britain the upper hand. Thus, Britain will be able to defend itself by using deterrence....Maybe the British government should start its own research on anti-ballistic missile. That would give Britain the advantage....