U-214 for Pakistan

[Falstaff]

According to BITS (see news) and GeoPowers.com citing the newspaper "Neues Deutschland" (all sources german) the budgetary commission of the German "Bundestag" (parliament) finally has been presented with a request by the German government to guarantee for about 1 billion € (total value about 1.2 bln €) for the sale of 3 U-214 class submarines to Pakistan. This is seen as a sign that the German government supports the sale and that negotioations have entered an advanced state. It is speculated that pre-assembled submarine sections will be delivered from 2011 for final assembly in Pakistan.
Concerns regarding the integration of a navalized "Barbur" cruise missile in the future and the unstable Pakistan government are expressed, culminating in speculations that after a possible take-over by muslim extremists these submarines would be a very threatening asset.

Basic information about the U-214 can be found here and in the (this time ) accurate Wikipedia article.

 

[EnigmaNZ]

It is a worry I have as well, it could be another Iran, blk 52 F-16s, Orions P3Cs, Type 214s, etc, all of which will find their way to China to copy the technology if that scenerio comes to fruition.

 

[Waylander]

I also don't like the idea of Chinese scientists crawling around in the U-214s.

I hope our government and HDW know what they are doing.

 

[BilalK]

I think certain conditions will be placed on the access to the submarines.

 

[SABRE]

I also don't like the idea of Chinese scientists crawling around in the U-214s.

I hope our government and HDW know what they are doing.

If deal goes through, U-214s would be placed at Karachi Dockyards - right where Agosta-90B facility is. There are no Chinese scientists there, just French & Pakistanis. Plus your engineers would be there.

It is a worry I have as well, it could be another Iran, blk 52 F-16s, Orions P3Cs, Type 214s, etc, all of which will find their way to China to copy the technology if that scenerio comes to fruition.

No F-16, No P3C Orion, no C-130, no Agosta-90B has ever made its way to China from Pakistan. & I dont think the U-214 would either. The German deal makers arnt dumb, if they worried abt this security concern they wudnt have put the deal on the table at 1st place.

Concerns regarding the integration of a navalized "Barbur" cruise missile in the future and the unstable Pakistan government are expressed, culminating in speculations that after a possible take-over by muslim extremists these submarines would be a very threatening asset.

This is just a regular BS ... The extremists may have significant number but they are limited to certain areas. I.e.: they might win from NWFP province but dont have any chance of winning from Punjab, Sindh & Balochistan. You need majority in at least 3 provinces (Punjab out of which is must) to make it to the government.

The basic requirement of the new submarine deal is that it should be able to launch cruise missile. Work on this would also take place on Agosta-90B & the naval version is kind of on the shelf.

 

[radiosilence]

The concerns express by some members is hypocritical. The "bogeyman" aka extremist take over of certain countries is overhype. The Germans have sold their subs to areas of conflicts and country A is using their subs to deploy nuclear cruise missiles. Yet, the Germans continue to sell their subs to country A knowing this. If the Germans don't sell others will. The French are lobbying to win this deal. At the end of the day money talks and bullshit walks.

 

[umair]

And the French are not out of the game yet. Total requirement is for 6 new submarines, so who knows?

 

[BilalK]

Looks like the PN is actually looking for 4 new submarines, not 3.
==============================

Australia, Pakistan, Bulgaria: DCN hopes to obtain two contracts out of three

t the time of the presentation of the results of the company, last Friday, Jean-Marie Poimboeuf, president of DCN, indicated that its group intended to currently gain at least two of the three contracts being negotiated. In Australia, DCN, combined with ADI (subsidiary of Thales) is in competition with Navantia for the construction of two helicopter carriers attack (1 billion dollar). The French proposes an increased version of the building of projection and Mistral command, with a displacement increased to 27.000 tons. Opposite, Spain aligns its Buque de Proyección Estratégica (BPE), of which the first specimen, Juan Carlos I, is in the course of construction for Armada. After the handing-over of the commercial offers at the end of 2006, Australia must choose the prize winner this year.

To Pakistan, DCN fights a savage battle with German TKMS in order to modernize the underwater fleet of the country with buildings of the type Scorpène or Marlin. Islamabad wishes to acquire four new submarines to replace the Daphne, now disarmed. Currently carrying out for this country the program Agosta 90B, DCN seems to have charts to play, the more so as the third submarine of the series, first to being equipped with the system with anaerobic propulsion MESMA, will begin its tests sea this year. The German commercial pressure remains nevertheless very strong

Lastly, the French group hopes for a good news on the side of Bulgaria. The country could buy four corvettes of the Gowind type, to which possibly two units for Georgia would be added. The ordering of these buildings, if it is concretized, will be done nevertheless in exchange of an industrial partnership. With this occasion, DCN could sub-contract with the Bulgarian building sites the realization of sections intended for the frigates multi-missions (FREMM).

BilalK! When you are copying and posting from another forum, you can atleast give proper credit to the one who reported this news in the first place. And I can bet you will not be able to find the link as well.

 

[Tasman]

==============================

Australia, Pakistan, Bulgaria: DCN hopes to obtain two contracts out of three

t the time of the presentation of the results of the company, last Friday, Jean-Marie Poimboeuf, president of DCN, indicated that its group intended to currently gain at least two of the three contracts being negotiated. In Australia, DCN, combined with ADI (subsidiary of Thales) is in competition with Navantia for the construction of two helicopter carriers attack (1 billion dollar). The French proposes an increased version of the building of projection and Mistral command, with a displacement increased to 27.000 tons. Opposite, Spain aligns its Buque de Proyección Estratégica (BPE), of which the first specimen, Juan Carlos I, is in the course of construction for Armada. After the handing-over of the commercial offers at the end of 2006, Australia must choose the prize winner this year.

That is interesting to hear a report that DCN now plans to offer an enlarged Mistral to Australia. Up until now reports have suggested that the Mistral offered to Australia would be the standard sized vessel.

Do you have a link for this BilalK? If so it would be good if you could post it in the Australian LHDs? thread.

Cheers

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I think certain conditions will be placed on the access to the submarines.

A "condition" is only useful if it is respected. First of all, Pakistan and China might be crafty enough to ensure no one finds out (at least until it was too late). Second, even if it were discovered, what could Germany do?

That said there are probably no real grounds for believing Pakistan would do that, as it relies on foreign weapons imports. If it helped China in such a blatant way today, it wouldn't be able to get its arms from anywhere except China. Given their level of technology isn't that high, Pakistan's options would be limited. Plus it would allow China to charge whatever they liked.

 

[Rich]

The concerns express by some members is hypocritical. The "bogeyman" aka extremist take over of certain countries is overhype. The Germans have sold their subs to areas of conflicts and country A is using their subs to deploy nuclear cruise missiles. Yet, the Germans continue to sell their subs to country A knowing this. If the Germans don't sell others will. The French are lobbying to win this deal. At the end of the day money talks and bullshit walks.

The real ones who hold the power in Pakistan are the Generals. Without their support there's no way Musharraf could stay in power . And sending all this military hardware, America sends most of it, is a stratagem to keep the Generals pacified.
In the great game of strategy this nation is a linchpin, which is why the Chinese are playing in Pakistan as well.

So there are two dynamics at work here with money being the least important one. Why else would China have helped them so much in their nuclear program? I think were just going to have to assume the Chinese will get their hands on anything that's sent to Pakistan even If Musharraf isn't involved because theres plenty that goes on outside his control.

All that help with the nukes, missilery, targeting systems...ect I'd say the Chinese have a big card to call in.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

I think were just going to have to assume the Chinese will get their hands on anything that's sent to Pakistan

Rich, re-read my post. If there was even the suggestion Pakistan was doing that, every other country around the world bar China would stop selling it stuff. It would also stop getting spare parts, technical assistance, missiles, etc for those systems it had - their purchases would fall out of service very quickly. There's no way China could replace such platforms in the foreseeable future, let alone now.

If you were Pakistan, would you want to be so reliant on a power that couldn't even replace the high-tech packages you'd spent billions on, with a powerful neighbour like India?

 

[Schumacher]

....If there was even the suggestion Pakistan was doing that, every other country around the world bar China would stop selling it stuff...........

Suggestion ? :lol2 Such suggestions of Pakistan-China 'close cooperation' have been around for ages. Guess what ? Foreign arms sales to Pakistan are still going on, that's why we have this discussion thread now.

 

[BilalK]

Well from a lot of the reports of Pakistan illegally sending Western technology to China, the time-lines of such transactions have taken place during times of Western embargo. When spare-parts and additional models cannot be sold, the fact of keeping them in service does come to mind. IMO I do not think Pakistan has transferred anything major - such as F-16, Agosta-90B, etc - to China, the reports should consider the possible "whys". Besides the black market, Pakistan may transfer certain technology to China for possible replication or technology extract.

Whether it happened or not, one thing is clear that most the transfers have been (allegedly) happened when Pakistan was under a Western & U.S arms embargo. Perhaps maintaining those relations and regulating the access of the F-16 Block 52+, U214, etc, could be placed.

 

[tphuang]

If you were Pakistan, would you want to be so reliant on a power that couldn't even replace the high-tech packages you'd spent billions on, with a powerful neighbour like India?

just exactly which which high-tech packages are you talking about here? Seems to me like Pakistan is purchasing more and more Chinese stuff as the time goes on.

but having said that, the Chinese espionage effort is not restricted to just Pakistan.

 

[radiosilence]

The real ones who hold the power in Pakistan are the Generals. Without their support there's no way Musharraf could stay in power . And sending all this military hardware, America sends most of it, is a stratagem to keep the Generals pacified.
In the great game of strategy this nation is a linchpin, which is why the Chinese are playing in Pakistan as well.

So there are two dynamics at work here with money being the least important one. Why else would China have helped them so much in their nuclear program? I think were just going to have to assume the Chinese will get their hands on anything that's sent to Pakistan even If Musharraf isn't involved because theres plenty that goes on outside his control.

All that help with the nukes, missilery, targeting systems...ect I'd say the Chinese have a big card to call in.

I don't want to get off-topic but i was replying to a few members (mostly germans) expressing concerns about their govt. selling their subs to pakistan. We can discuss "The Great Game" and US military sales in another thread.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

just exactly which which high-tech packages are you talking about here?

Something like the P-3C Orion? Last time I looked, China couldn't build anything like that for Pakistan. Equally I would say F-16 Block 52 is superior to the JF-17.

Such suggestions of Pakistan-China 'close cooperation' have been around for ages.

And that happened whilst the US and European countries were selling weapons to Pakistan - or was that when the embargoes were placed on it, as BilalK suggested? Because I doubt the restrictions on arms sales would have been lifted unless countries like the US and Germany were completely confident those items were safe in Pakistani hands.

 

[pshamim]

Israel has transferred more technology to China than Pakistan ever has. But I guess pointing finger at Israel is not kosher. Levy, developed with US money and technology is an example.

Also, China has a trillion dollars reserve and it can purchase it through the most unthinkable sources like Indians being caught in US recently selling it to China.

 

[Musashi_kenshin]

Israel has transferred more technology to China than Pakistan ever has. But I guess pointing finger at Israel is not kosher.

There were consequences for Israel, though. Restrictions were only lifted when Israel promised that Washington would have a veto over future exchanges.

Also, China has a trillion dollars reserve and it can purchase it through the most unthinkable sources like Indians being caught in US recently selling it to China.

I don't think that reserve is used for such things. It's the banks' money, not the government's. Even though the biggest are state-owned, I don't think that means they can use their money as they please. Plus they are lending a lot, so they need money to support those debts.

If it was government money, I would have thought they'd be using it doing something like building a long-term social welfare network for the ageing population.

 

[pshamim]

Well! This was just to state that Pakistan is not the only aaleged source of technology for China. Israelis, Americans including some Chinese and Indian Americans are the source too. Money talks.

What is quite evident that when there is a news of Pakistan getting something from somewhere, you see the frogs come out ribitting against Pakistan. You will find this quite common on many forums.