Why is China against the US-South Korean joint military exercise?

[rip]

When countries can peacefully resolve disputes and find satisfactory answers to possible conflicts and if that is not a GOOD THING, then GOOD THINGS don’t exist. I still do not see the necessity of judging evey action that China makes in the worst possible light. China at various times in its history has been expansionist but at other times it has been insular. At this time a place in human history nether approach will serve it very well. For it to gain the greatest possible benefit for its people it must engage with the rest of the world which is always messy to some degree but the age of conquest and empire is over for everybody, if they know it or not.

The world in many measurable ways is getting smaller, tighter, and more interdependent for one simple overriding reason. If the human race is to survive and to continue to advance with it’s ever greater population, then more not less cooperation between nations and peoples are required than has ever before seen within our collective world history. At some level this is recognized by all the players if they put it in those terms or not.

There is a great deal of comment on this board about the US and China’s” interests”, substituting the areas of contention between the two them for what the goals they are separately perusing. There is a difference. I do not even know what the term “evading their interests” means? The very concept of Sphere of influence from which the current definition of national interest is found is in itself obsolete and those that wish to pursue it, by trying to dominate their neighbors would only get burned if the try. The virtue of soft power, as China is learning for itself, is in the form of mutual benefit after gaining cooperation in contrast to the use of intimidation and threats, no matter how subtly they are made which always leaves resentment and are thus always unstable.

 

[Belesari]

Rip,
The vaste majority of people dont think about the survival of mankind. Their own comes first. Then their families. Then they want to be happy.
Politicans WILL think about getting relected first or making money first. Because money equals the power to win elections. The Chinese aren't doing this out of kindness and love of their fellow man there are strings attached to gifts.

"When countries can peacefully resolve disputes and find satisfactory answers to possible conflicts and if that is not a GOOD THING, then GOOD THINGS don’t exist."

Just make sure that peaceful resolution doesnt look like the peaceful resolutions reached to apease hitler and Nazi germany.
While it is good that we can find peaceful resolutions to possible conflicts between china, the US and others. Just make sure that you aren't trading a few years of peace for a dozen years of war,occupation, or worse.

And i cant trust the idea of World peace and cooperation. Man is what it is. We rarely get along our cultures, needs, and ways of thought are just to divergent. Hell some forms of government etc cant exist in the same world as the others.

 

[rip]

Rip,
The vaste majority of people dont think about the survival of mankind. Their own comes first. Then their families. Then they want to be happy.
Politicans WILL think about getting relected first or making money first. Because money equals the power to win elections. The Chinese aren't doing this out of kindness and love of their fellow man there are strings attached to gifts.

"When countries can peacefully resolve disputes and find satisfactory answers to possible conflicts and if that is not a GOOD THING, then GOOD THINGS don’t exist."

Just make sure that peaceful resolution doesnt look like the peaceful resolutions reached to apease hitler and Nazi germany.
While it is good that we can find peaceful resolutions to possible conflicts between china, the US and others. Just make sure that you aren't trading a few years of peace for a dozen years of war,occupation, or worse.

And i cant trust the idea of World peace and cooperation. Man is what it is. We rarely get along our cultures, needs, and ways of thought are just to divergent. Hell some forms of government etc cant exist in the same world as the others.

People are what people are. The problem as I see it is not that there is some kind of legitimate irreconcilable difference that we are fated to fight about. But there is a great difference in what China thinks is in its best interest in the long run, what its best interest really are. Its political thinking, regardless of the other attributes of current Chinese thought is frozen within the 18th century and they refuse to understand that if they act like a 18th power they will suffer the same fate as the 18th century powers’ suffered. I could go in to all the reasons for this statement, the long self-imposed isolation of China while the rest of the world moved on, the cultural, historical, and philosophical mindset that have remained frozen in the past. But at the end there is only one question that needs to be answered, can they make the transition to the 21th century power belief system before they so screw up so badly that it destroys all their hopes and dreams and eliminates all the progress they have already made? They do not see the problem. They refuse to believe that their approach to national power, the only one that they understand, is so dangerous. They think they are wise and smart ones and all the rest of us are soft or naïve or dumb but that they are really going somewhere fast and the rest of us would be better to get out their way but they are very, very wrong.

 

[Belesari]

I think when it comes to china to many are still making the same mistakes in the US. The simple fact is that the US sucks at foreign relation. Its not that we are stupid its that to much brain rot has occured. For so long everyone has said "everyone is just alike thinks the same and wants the same things" that we believe it.

From asking the tribal region of afghanistan/pakistan to for a democratic western state (impossible in my opinion nut unless we are willing to do things we simply wont and that the world would freak out at). To thinking that Firing the entire Bath party (which Everyone was a part of) in iraq and expecting the country not to fall apart.

To dozens of other failures. We fail to take into account the differences in thinking and realities.

Hell you mentioned militarism in another post. Militarism didnt make the Japanese act like genocidal madmen in WWII. The combination of Isolationism and such couldnt have helped. I think the Japanese are awesome would love to visit but they are about the stranges people culturaly you can meet. Dont think so? Look at scifi. Now look at how many alien races are so familar to japanese culturaly.

China while not as bad as japan suffers from leadership problems in my opinion. I've talked to Chinese citizens most of them were nice and couldnt give a dang about going to war with the US or anyone else.

But its up to the Chinese leadership.

 

[RubiconNZ]

I think when it comes to china to many are still making the same mistakes in the US. The simple fact is that the US sucks at foreign relation. Its not that we are stupid its that to much brain rot has occured. For so long everyone has said "everyone is just alike thinks the same and wants the same things" that we believe it.

From asking the tribal region of afghanistan/pakistan to for a democratic western state (impossible in my opinion nut unless we are willing to do things we simply wont and that the world would freak out at). To thinking that Firing the entire Bath party (which Everyone was a part of) in iraq and expecting the country not to fall apart.

To dozens of other failures. We fail to take into account the differences in thinking and realities.

Hell you mentioned militarism in another post. Militarism didnt make the Japanese act like genocidal madmen in WWII. The combination of Isolationism and such couldnt have helped. I think the Japanese are awesome would love to visit but they are about the stranges people culturaly you can meet. Dont think so? Look at scifi. Now look at how many alien races are so familar to japanese culturaly.

China while not as bad as japan suffers from leadership problems in my opinion. I've talked to Chinese citizens most of them were nice and couldnt give a dang about going to war with the US or anyone else.

But its up to the Chinese leadership.

What rubbish, and considering the title of thread it seems to be veering off topic.
If this thread stays open I may take the effort to refute your post, though I doubt it will.

 

[rip]

I think it would be best to simplify the issues.

The single biggest issue in the world’s future is in is how the new emerging powers in the world will be accommodated within the world power system. Will a new system be created more relevant to the changing realities but still using the new paradigms of cooperation, mutual assure prosperity, and rational law or will we revert to the old system of dominance, force, and exploitation? China is the first but eventually there will be others to test the current system.

As you will remember WW I was cause primarily, because in the world powers system which existed at that time, there was no room for Germany or even Japan for that matter, to rise in the world without pushing someone else down. The people at the top of that system didn’t want to be pushed down and everyone involved saw the world is such a narrow way that for others to advance required that they then must fall. What is now called a zero sum game. The results were disastrous for everyone.

After WW 2 there was a deliberate effort by the victor’s to change the world power system is such a way that new aspiring entrants could rise, prosper, and even become great powers themselves without resulting to physical destructive conflict. Recognizing the fact that the human power to destroy had become so great that it put every human being on Earth in danger and that the old ways of sorting things out could no longer work. This new system is now being put to the test.

China is the first country to rise since the creation of this new world system along with the native raw capacity to challenge this new system, despite that it has benefited so greatly from it. And is now doing so using the traditional concepts of what world power means and what it intitules you to do coming from the paradigms of the failed past. That older mind set is completely incompatible with the new.

 

[Shock]

responding to the OP:

China is against it for many reasons. the history of aggression of western powers in it's past (the two opium wars come to mind), having three states allied with the world's remaining superpower, and then having a military exercise in what is basically their back yard.

not that this will start world war three because the U.S. and Chinese economies are too entangled at the moment for either side to be dropping bombs on each other (and not to mention the nuclear firepower that both sides have at their disposal) so it reduces both countries to continue posturing militarily the same way two male dogs separated by either side of a fence.

 

[Belesari]

I think it would be best to simplify the issues.

The single biggest issue in the world’s future is in is how the new emerging powers in the world will be accommodated within the world power system. Will a new system be created more relevant to the changing realities but still using the new paradigms of cooperation, mutual assure prosperity, and rational law or will we revert to the old system of dominance, force, and exploitation? China is the first but eventually there will be others to test the current system.

As you will remember WW I was cause primarily, because in the world powers system which existed at that time, there was no room for Germany or even Japan for that matter, to rise in the world without pushing someone else down. The people at the top of that system didn’t want to be pushed down and everyone involved saw the world is such a narrow way that for others to advance required that they then must fall. What is now called a zero sum game. The results were disastrous for everyone.

After WW 2 there was a deliberate effort by the victor’s to change the world power system is such a way that new aspiring entrants could rise, prosper, and even become great powers themselves without resulting to physical destructive conflict. Recognizing the fact that the human power to destroy had become so great that it put every human being on Earth in danger and that the old ways of sorting things out could no longer work. This new system is now being put to the test.

China is the first country to rise since the creation of this new world system along with the native raw capacity to challenge this new system, despite that it has benefited so greatly from it. And is now doing so using the traditional concepts of what world power means and what it intitules you to do coming from the paradigms of the failed past. That older mind set is completely incompatible with the new.

What you said reminds me of something i read not to long ago. A high ranking US admiral sat down and while talking with the chinese had something said to him.


"had a conversation while at Pacific Command with a Chinese admiral during one of my visits to China. In this conversation he proposed the following. He said: ‘You know, we, China are going to build aircraft carriers, we’re already doing it. and what we propose is; you take Hawaii-east, from the United States to Hawaii and you keep your carriers and your ships there and take care of everything that happens there. We’ll take Hawaii-west through the Indian Ocean with our aircraft carriers and our ships and anything that happens there, we’ll let you know, but we’ll take care of it. I declined his offer"

Read more: http://defensetech.org/category/ships-and-subs/#ixzz1JkEQwDUS
Defense.org

 

[tphuang]

I'm not surprised that Chinese admiral said that. Although at the moment, I think PLAN would settle with USN not poking around too close to its naval bases in South China Sea.

 

[swerve]

What rubbish, and considering the title of thread it seems to be veering off topic.
If this thread stays open I may take the effort to refute your post, though I doubt it will.

Rubbish indeed. This, in particular, is bizarre rubbish:

I think the Japanese are awesome would love to visit but they are about the stranges people culturaly you can meet. Dont think so? Look at scifi. Now look at how many alien races are so familar to japanese culturaly.

BTW, my wife is Japanese.

 

[gf0012-aust]

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