who can kill a modern Main Battle Tank (MBT)?

[gf0012-aust]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

There is some rumours in Indonesian newspaper some months ago that Indonesia Armed Forces will be given some of old Leo from Australia (i try to find some link about this but i can't remember where i read the news, sorry).
I think it just purely a rumour, maybe GF and Aussie Digger had a better information about this.

Not sure about whats happening to the Leo's. Some of them are heavily fatigued - so I'm not sure we'd give Indonesia gear thats a bit too worn out.

I know that Indonesia has asked for any Freemantle Class patrol boats that we dispose of, but again, the Navy has indicated that they are heavily used and that they could be almost regarded as unseaworthy.

The RAN is in in the process of helping the IN redesign a green water ORBAT at the Indonesian Govts request. That means we could possibly build some patrol boats as a gift in military aid.

In the past we've given Indonesia Sabres, Nomads, Hercules (re-transfers), Attack class patrol boats etc....

 

[knightrider4]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

I'm pretty sure that Uncle Sam used willie p in fallujha (Iraq). The info can be found on globalsecuriy.org.

 

[Aussie Digger]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Not sure about whats happening to the Leo's. Some of them are heavily fatigued - so I'm not sure we'd give Indonesia gear thats a bit too worn out.

I know that Indonesia has asked for any Freemantle Class patrol boats that we dispose of, but again, the Navy has indicated that they are heavily used and that they could be almost regarded as unseaworthy.

The RAN is in in the process of helping the IN redesign a green water ORBAT at the Indonesian Govts request. That means we could possibly build some patrol boats as a gift in military aid.

In the past we've given Indonesia Sabres, Nomads, Hercules (re-transfers), Attack class patrol boats etc....

I seriously doubt the Government could afford to give Indonesia our leo's. The political uproar would be enormous. Patrol boats, Nomads etc are fine. They possesses very little ability to be used against "insurgents". Leopard tanks OTOH...

The media would be screaming about Indonesia (and probably Kopassus, as that's Indonesia's only military unit apparently) using "our" tanks against Indonesian subjects. There'd be quite a "hugh and cry" over this I'd imagine.

But we'll see soon enough. Our first Squadron of M1A1's will arrive this year...

 

[ThunderBolt]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

actually, the US, China and Russia use depleted uranium rounds.

where have the US used Phosphorous rounds in the last 25 years?

no not phosphorous rounds phosphorous gerenades.

 

[pasukangeraktjepat]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

I seriously doubt the Government could afford to give Indonesia our leo's. The political uproar would be enormous. Patrol boats, Nomads etc are fine. They possesses very little ability to be used against "insurgents". Leopard tanks OTOH....

You're right, in some of the latest news about Indonesian Armed Forces proposal to buy a new tank it was indicated that we may buy a new tank from Poland (Like Malaysia did).
We may buy a new tank around 2007.

 

[Matt]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

I'm sure that a BRITISH Challenger II could wipe out a Abrams any day!!

Plus the fact that our tank crews are the best in the world.

Just a shame that the govt have just scrapped 80 of them.

 

[oskarm]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

You're right, in some of the latest news about Indonesian Armed Forces proposal to buy a new tank it was indicated that we may buy a new tank from Poland (Like Malaysia did).
We may buy a new tank around 2007.

Can you give a source of this info and some more specific information about it?

 

[Rich]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

I'm sure that a BRITISH Challenger II could wipe out a Abrams any day!!

Plus the fact that our tank crews are the best in the world.

Just a shame that the govt have just scrapped 80 of them.

Hello to the group. Ive heard glowing reports about Brit tankers from Yank M1 crews for decades. Germans and their Leopards too. Happily we wont ever be fighting our British allies. Besides an enemy doesnt just get hit with the Abrahms. They get the entire air,land,sea juggernaught landing on top of them.

 

[Berserk Fury]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

I haven't read through all 11 pages...so I dunno if I'm repeating anything hear but have you guys considered AT mines?
M1's don't have that much armor under it, or so I think.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

I haven't read through all 11 pages...so I dunno if I'm repeating anything hear but have you guys considered AT mines?
M1's don't have that much armor under it, or so I think.

Abrams have survived multiple IEDs - and single, let alone multiple IEDs are usually higher in yield than mines.

 

[Pathfinder-X]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Abrams have survived multiple IEDs - and single, let alone multiple IEDs are usually higher in yield than mines.

As far as I'm concerned, those Abrams are either disabled or beyond repair. The most effective way of taking out a tank would be from the top, since the armour is horribly thin in that area compared to the rest of the tank. The top-attack munitions are the way of the future.

 

[Berserk Fury]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

But it's expensive to research the tech and to create the actual weapon vs. IED's and AT mines which are cheap and easy to make.

 

[Waylander]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

But except of Guerilla warfare you never use mines and IEDs without a security force of some kind. For example infantry or IFVs with ATGMs
You cannot compare an AT-mine to a new ATGM. They have very different types of missions.

 

[Berserk Fury]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Of course you can't compare those two...mission-wise...
you can't even compare the pricetags on each of them
Countries who aren't military powerful/wealthy and need help in repelling attacks from larger countries with more firepower want a cheap mass-produceable weapon rather than a state of the art ATGM which would be produced in very limited quantities compared with IEDs or AT mines and use up far more resources and take up far more time in production and have a slightly higher error rate/ % fail ratio.
That was a long sentence lol

 

[Waylander]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Thats right, if you look at the situation in Iraq.
But as I said mines and IEDs alone without good AT-Weapons are relatively useless if your country is under a full scale attack.
When you're in the situation to use them effectively like in Iraq your country has already been overrun and you fight a guerilla war.

 

[wittmanace]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

this article is very interesting:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-03-29-abrams-tank-a_x.htm


it suggests rpg casn be effective in certain situation against the abrams......notably the engine is identified as a weak area particularly from above of course

 

[psyclops]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Sure an RPG is effective against some parts of an Abrams; even the basic PG-7V warhead can penetrate some 330mm of RHA. The PG-7VL can go through 600mm, and the PG-7VR does 600mm behind ERA. It seems to be easier to make a warhead that can go through thick armor than to make armor to stand up to such warheads. Part of the back-and-forth of the arms race, I guess. Anyway, there are always weak spots. I saw a set of pictures on another forum of an RPG penetration of an Abrams turret. It didn't do much of anything on the inside, even though it penetrated right by the gunner's face. Gave the gunner some minor shrapnel wounds, didn't sound like enough to send him anywhere but the battalion medic, and aside from a few scorch marks didn't look like it did much to the equipment inside, either. Penetration and damage are two different things, especially when the thickness of the armor is right at the edge of a warhead's penetration range.

 

[Waylander]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

With spall liners becoming more and more a part of MBTs it is even harder to penetrate a tank AND do serious damage to the crew or equipment inside.

 

[Moroz.ru]

... don't forget, that the sensors and fire control was still good enough to kill T 72's at ranges where the T 72 could not even see the Abrams, and those were the earleir model Abrams, not the recent more potent variant.

T-72? Why you didn't choose T-34 for demonstrating Abrams superiority?
T-90 has laser guided self-propelled warheads 9M119 shot by cannon. It range is 100 to 5000m. Ore AT-11 (to 4000m). Shooting frequency is 7-8 per minute.
Photo of T-90 jump:
http://tank-t-90.narod.ru/photo_tank/photo-t90-03.html

 

[Waylander]

Why is everybody so fixed on big ranges?
Do you know how small a tank is at 5000m (Even with new optics)?
And despite the fighting in deserts it is really hard just to get a look at your enemy at 5km. And when the enemy tank is maneuvering you have to have very much luck to hit him.
The 9M119 is able to penetrate 650mm-750mm RHA. That is not nearly enough to get into a M1A2, Leopard IIA6, Merkava Mrk.IV or Leclerc T10.
And what does a photo of a jumping Tank has to do with the killing capability?
I've got plenty pics of jumping tanks, but that's a question of maneuverability.