who can kill a modern Main Battle Tank (MBT)?

[gf0012-aust]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

But the point I raised regarding urban warfare is germaine to this discussion, with the majority of the worlds populations moving to urban centres, future warfare will not be on the rolling plains with 10 kilometers of unobstructed view, therefore the abrams will be at its most vulnerable, as will any MBT, namely with bad guys not only shooting in the horizontal, but the vertican, donwards on the upper plating, from very close up and personal. Ask any infanteer, where would they rather face enemy armour? Answer, in the streets where his main gun can't traverse because of hard obstructions.

Agree wholeheartedly . btw, whats your philosophical opinion of TUSK in lieue of this discussion?

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

only a hellfire missile? who told you that BS???
any modern anti-tank launchers like the German Panzerfaust 3 can penetrate any MBT fielded today even the M1A2!
In the battle you cannot expect that your enemy only attacks you from the front. War is merciless!

Actually PLA, an Abrams that had to be abandoned in Iraq absorbed at least 2 oint blank 120 mm sabot rounds from another Abrams, and it took 2 AGM 65 Maverick HEAVY missiles to destroy it, so you want to face it with a PZ3?

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Agree wholeheartedly . btw, whats your philosophical opinion of TUSK in lieue of this discussion?

Gf, you will have to educate me here, what is TUSK? ( I will always ask such silly questions, afterall, I am a civillian

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Gf, you will have to educate me here, what is TUSK? ( I will always ask such silly questions, afterall, I am a civillian

http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/10_10/national_news/33782-1.html

happy reading!

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/pentagram/10_10/national_news/33782-1.html

happy reading!

\Well, thank you for the information GF, just one question, the new kit has reactive exploseive armour, while at the same time an infantry link for a squad commander to communicate ( correct me if I am wrong, but that was last used on the M48/60 series tank, I believe in the sixties?)

Now philosophically speaking, the last place I would want to be is around an abrams, as a squad guy, when someone hits the Abrams with an RPG, or maybe a 50 cal round, sets off the reactive armour, kills or wounds all the protective infantry with the reactive going off.

Again, I may be a laymen in these matters, but wow, what a trade off.
I have a suggestion, take the old leopard hulls, or better yet old crusaders, put a short barrelled or sawn off 105 or 120 mani gun, armour it up with roof protection, and shazzam! you got one mean motha of a assault vehicle for urban warfare situations.

What do you think?

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

\Well, thank you for the information GF, just one question, the new kit has reactive exploseive armour, while at the same time an infantry link for a squad commander to communicate ( correct me if I am wrong, but that was last used on the M48/60 series tank, I believe in the sixties?)

Now philosophically speaking, the last place I would want to be is around an abrams, as a squad guy, when someone hits the Abrams with an RPG, or maybe a 50 cal round, sets off the reactive armour, kills or wounds all the protective infantry with the reactive going off.

Again, I may be a laymen in these matters, but wow, what a trade off.
I have a suggestion, take the old leopard hulls, or better yet old crusaders, put a short barrelled or sawn off 105 or 120 mani gun, armour it up with roof protection, and shazzam! you got one mean motha of a assault vehicle for urban warfare situations.

What do you think?

Whhops, I meant to say Centurion, not Crusader LOLOLOL

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Well, thank you for the information GF, just one question, the new kit has reactive exploseive armour, while at the same time an infantry link for a squad commander to communicate ( correct me if I am wrong, but that was last used on the M48/60 series tank, I believe in the sixties?)

No, most western tanks still provide direct hard comms links externally mounted.

Now philosophically speaking, the last place I would want to be is around an abrams, as a squad guy, when someone hits the Abrams with an RPG, or maybe a 50 cal round, sets off the reactive armour, kills or wounds all the protective infantry with the reactive going off.

All depends on environment - and comms links back to the tank don't have to be hard wired. eg the Aust M1's will be Link16'ed to all other major wired assets, that means that they can talk to Hornets, Guided Missile Frigates, Orions or get data feeds from UAV's etc.... Boucing data back to ground troops won't necessarily be a major issue.

Again, I may be a laymen in these matters, but wow, what a trade off.
I have a suggestion, take the old leopard hulls, or better yet old crusaders, put a short barrelled or sawn off 105 or 120 mani gun, armour it up with roof protection, and shazzam! you got one mean motha of a assault vehicle for urban warfare situations.

What do you think?

Already been done. There are a few short barreled mules running around that are designed for breeching etc... It's what triggered TUSK IIRC.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Whhops, I meant to say Centurion, not Crusader LOLOLOL

No harm in using old rope for new tricks

AFAIK China still has some T-34's they use in the north west as dug in "gate guards".

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

No, most western tanks still provide direct hard comms links externally mounted.

All depends on environment - and comms links back to the tank don't have to be hard wired. eg the Aust M1's will be Link16'ed to all other major wired assets, that means that they can talk to Hornets, Guided Missile Frigates, Orions or get data feeds from UAV's etc.... Boucing data back to ground troops won't necessarily be a major issue.



Already been done. There are a few short barreled mules running around that are designed for breeching etc... It's what triggered TUSK IIRC.

This raises a another question GF, Would it not maybe be better to perhaps reincarnate the good old fashioned turretless assault gun AKA Schturm or SU
series of vehicle in the west? Maybe along the same lines as the Swedish S series of vehicle.

But, in the combined arms role, the main prupose is to get the infantry safely into the buildings to sweep the area, and I still do not feel comfortable with the ERA armour protection, I realise that there has been alot of midnight oil burned over this. Is there any modular, expendable armour applique that could do the same job, and not kill friendlies at the same time?

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

No harm in using old rope for new tricks

AFAIK China still has some T-34's they use in the north west as dug in "gate guards".

Hey, there was a auto wrecking yard in downtown Toronto, Canada, that was doing a big business in 1967 selling Surplus Canadian Centurion parts to a certain country in the middle east. in fact, if you flew an airplane over that yard, you would swear that you were looking at the worlds largest discount tank yard! No word of a lie, right in downtown Toronto.

Have the Australian Army taken possession of the Abrams yet? What are the plans for disposal of the Leopards you have currently?

 

[MilSpex]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Its not the thickness of the armour - it is the type of armour. M1a2's use a DU armour plate. In 1999 T72's that managed to close up to 1000 ft had their shells literally bouncing off the M1a2's.

Are we talking 1999 or 1991 here? A couple of people have been talking about a 1999 engagement? what happened in 1999?

 

[WAR]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Well a lot of aspects covered in the earlier posts by the learnered members.
In Pakistan specific environment, I would say that no missile or system needed to destroy M1 Abraham Tank. Why? Because, in harsh climatic conditions, it fails to deliver. Its computer system is not compatible with the severe conditions prevalent in the desert areas of Bahawalpur etc. In the eighties, Pakistan was very serious to induct these Tanks in Pak Army inventory. The then President of Pakistan, Late General Zia ul Haq himself went to Bahawalpur in summer to witness its performance, along with US Ambassador and other high level military and civil officers of both US and Pakistan. After demo, it was decided not to induct these tanks, owing to its performance in Pakistan-specific environment.
Unfortunately, it was President's last official engagement, as on his return to Islamabad after witnessing the demo, his VVIP C-130 (Airforce One) crashed after few minutes of take-off.

 

[Pursuit Curve]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Well a lot of aspects covered in the earlier posts by the learnered members.
In Pakistan specific environment, I would say that no missile or system needed to destroy M1 Abraham Tank. Why? Because, in harsh climatic conditions, it fails to deliver. Its computer system is not compatible with the severe conditions prevalent in the desert areas of Bahawalpur etc. In the eighties, Pakistan was very serious to induct these Tanks in Pak Army inventory. The then President of Pakistan, Late General Zia ul Haq himself went to Bahawalpur in summer to witness its performance, along with US Ambassador and other high level military and civil officers of both US and Pakistan. After demo, it was decided not to induct these tanks, owing to its performance in Pakistan-specific environment.
Unfortunately, it was President's last official engagement, as on his return to Islamabad after witnessing the demo, his VVIP C-130 (Airforce One) crashed after few minutes of take-off.

Well, The Abrams preformed well enough in the harsh desert environment during Desert Storm, and if the weather is too severe for the Abrams to operate, I would say it is safe to say that any weapon system will be even more disabled in the same harsh climate, don't forget, that the sensors and fire control was still good enough to kill T 72's at ranges where the T 72 could not even see the Abrams, and those were the earleir model Abrams, not the recent more potent variant.

General Zia ul Haq was killed by a bomb in his Herc, wasn't he?

 

[WAR]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Yes, General Zia was killed in his Herculis along with US Ambassador, and top military brass of both US and Pakistan. The bomb exploded soon after the take-off.
The inquiry conducted by various forums are still "Classified". The people are still waiting and anxious to know as to who was responsible for this terrorist act.
However, a number of rumours and "Controlled Leaks" are there to have some idea as to what happened. Some take them seriously, while others as gossip.

 

[dday]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Would a Javilin???

 

[pasukangeraktjepat]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

What are the plans for disposal of the Leopards you have currently?

There is some rumours in Indonesian newspaper some months ago that Indonesia Armed Forces will be given some of old Leo from Australia (i try to find some link about this but i can't remember where i read the news, sorry).
I think it just purely a rumour, maybe GF and Aussie Digger had a better information about this.

 

[ThunderBolt]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

The US army not only uses great tanks but also great ammo. They used this special type of round that was uranium tipped, its great for penerating armour but has side effects to it. They used it in Fallujha, this radioactive stuff causes birth defects, i don't know if any of you have heard of this or not.

 

[KGB]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

I think you're referring to depleted uranium (DU) rounds. They're really dense, hard darts that are of smaller caliber than the tank's cannon, thus they have a casing or SABOT which allows the tank's cannon to concentrate all the propellant power onto the small round. This penetrates enemy armor thorugh sheer mass x acceleration. The A-10 warthog uses these rounds too I believe. At extreme ranges the damage is supposed to be reduced by air friction slowing the round down, but I think it doesn't get stopped by reactive armor. I'm not sure about the exact threat the DU slugs cause to the environment but I wouldn't be surprised if not a lot of data exists. Not a lot of pregnant women driving tanks in the US army I imagine

 

[ThunderBolt]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Yes i am talking about those rounds and it doesn't have to be women to cause birth defects, i read that it actually affected men who shot it and those who were shot at, US also used phosphorus gerenades which should be illegal but enough arguments have been made on it.

 

[gf0012-aust]

Re: who can kill an M1 Abrams?

Yes i am talking about those rounds and it doesn't have to be women to cause birth defects, i read that it actually affected men who shot it and those who were shot at, US also used phosphorus gerenades which should be illegal but enough arguments have been made on it.

actually, the US, China and Russia use depleted uranium rounds.

where have the US used Phosphorous rounds in the last 25 years?