who can kill a modern Main Battle Tank (MBT)?

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Waylander

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And don't forget about Egypt.
They might have a peace contract with Israel but this might only last until the US friendly regime there changes like it happened in the Iran.
 
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oskarm

New Member
Waylander said:
Jup, that's right.
The equipment should be no problem because the plish brigade consists of the material we gave to them some years ago.
I don't know how good the organization is nowadays.
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You are wrong. Leos, M577, M113, Fauns and so on went 10. Armored Cavalry Brigade. http://www.10bkpanc.sow.mil.pl/index.htm This Brigade is now subordinated to 11. Armored Div. http://www.2kz.mil.pl/11dkpanc/34bkpanc.htm

Northeast Corp http://www.mncne.pl/ includes 12. Mechanized Division. http://www.12dz.mil.pl/index.php?id=3 Now it is the biggest polish Div consisting of 5 Brigades. But soon its Armored Cav Brig will be joined with 12. Mech Brig. And this brigade will be fully equipped with Rosomaks (AMV-360P).

Sorry for OT
 
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Waylander

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I thought the Leos were given to you because of some required NATO standards and to make the cooperation easier between the units which are supposed to work together under NATO command.
Would be logical to attach the Leos to units which should work together with our units.
 
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oskarm

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Yes you are right. When Poland has recived Leos the 10th Arm Cav Brig (Polish) was subordinated to 7th Arm Div (German) and it was a part of Fast Reaction Corp. But as far as I know, the 7th Div was disbanded.
 
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PlasmaKrab

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Wookie said:
I haven't had time to look at it in detail, but I would tend to agree. Israel is one nation that shouldn't drop its tank fleet. And canning the Merkava when it has finally reached the stage that its designer intended 30 years ago??
Which also brings up the point that the merkava was designed to be improved in increments. Going about making a vehicle that way is expensive on paper (but less expensive then replacing your tank fleet with new every 10 years to match the planned upgrade process).
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Sorry guys, but how does stopping the production in a five-years frame mean "canning the Merkava" altogether? Remember that the production has been running since 1978 or so, maybe it is time to switch to something else? There are still scores of non-upgraded Merkava Mk2s and possibly Mk-1s used by Tsahal, which would equate to the US Army still running a couple of divisions on IPM1s. Upgrading them doesn't require putting up newbuild tanks day in, day out.

There are between 1500 and 2000 Merkavas produced, as far as I can tell, and that should be enough for Israel, given their current strategical situation. The sheer idea that some Israeli officials actually consider putting their tank fleet to a lower priority level may sound like a glimmer of hope in the current grim situation, meaning that open warfare with neighbouring countries is less a risk than 30 years ago. OK, that could also mean that they already own enough of them to beat the armies of the whole Middle East to pulp hands down... which they basically do.
 
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extern

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PlasmaKrab said:
Remember that the production has been running since 1978 or so, maybe it is time to switch to something else?
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Now they are not planning tank production at all. TsAHAL decided there is no place for tanks in the future battlefields. Only the hevy ICVs 'Namer' and the light weeled ICVs 'Mantakit' will be in production. Look at the full hebrew text of that article in the Israeli 'Globes Mag': http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2006/09/29/89333031.pdf http://uploaded.fresh.co.il/2006/09/29/90807022.pdf (the file exceed 100 kb limit).
 
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Wooki

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PlasmaKrab said:
Sorry guys, but how does stopping the production in a five-years frame mean "canning the Merkava" altogether? Remember that the production has been running since 1978 or so, maybe it is time to switch to something else? There are still scores of non-upgraded Merkava Mk2s and possibly Mk-1s used by Tsahal, which would equate to the US Army still running a couple of divisions on IPM1s. Upgrading them doesn't require putting up newbuild tanks day in, day out.

There are between 1500 and 2000 Merkavas produced, as far as I can tell, and that should be enough for Israel, given their current strategical situation. The sheer idea that some Israeli officials actually consider putting their tank fleet to a lower priority level may sound like a glimmer of hope in the current grim situation, meaning that open warfare with neighbouring countries is less a risk than 30 years ago. OK, that could also mean that they already own enough of them to beat the armies of the whole Middle East to pulp hands down... which they basically do.
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The point is that the MBT has had the upper hand for a few years now, but the pendulum is swinging back to the anti armor technologies. This is not the time to stop or even plan to stop development of armor technologies.

cheers


w
 
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Waylander

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That'S the point. Maybe if they would have pushed the development and implemention of Trophy like systems in the past there would be a discussion about the worth of ATGMs.
 
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PlasmaKrab

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Probably Israel is hitting the same point in the research trend curve that the US and most western countries were at about ten years back, where heavy armor was out of fashion and light networked forces were all the rage.
I don't mean that the Israeli R&D is lagging behind, far from it, but the local conditions have made that this priority shift wasn't as quick as on the European theater.

Possibly the recent Lebanon campaign led the IDF top brass to consider more Rumsfeld-like campaigns for the future, with highly-mobile elite infiltrated infantry supported by huge air assets?

Talking about anti-armor, there is also more and more talk about KE missile technology. The LOSAT somewhat proved the worth of the concept, the CKEM is nearing definition, and gun-launched prototypes are being trialed. This kind of systems, though not ideal, gives a severe kick in the mouth to systems like composite armour, reactive armour, electric armour, and explosive active protection like Arena and Trophy.
 
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Pursuit Curve

New Member
Wooki said:
Now, that really is interesting. Here we have tanks making a come back (of sorts) against the wheeled vehicle "LAV is all" types in Iraq and Israel are talking about pulling the plug.

Curious...

cheers

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Well, if you ask the Canadian Armed Forces about the LAV performance in Afghanistan, surviving RPG and IED for examlp, as well as VIED, I think you would get a ringing endorsement. The criticism of any weapon platform must be kept in context. Would an LAV III perform well against heavy ATGM? Probably not. But there are not many IFV, AFV or MBT that can give 100 percent protection.
 
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swerve

Super Moderator
Grand Danois said:
Doing a bit of genealogy, eh? IIRC the Kirkebøger are available on the net, so I guess you read Danish... ;)
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Yes, tracing my ancestors. Looking at Nyborg, early C18 right now. As for reading Danish - well, sort of. I'm OK when it's printed modern Danish, but I'm struggling with old handwriting + unfamiliar abbreviations + archaic spelling. Bad enough when it's in English, but when you add in a language which I don't understand well, it's bloody hard. The frustrating thing is that I don't actually need translations, it's the initial reading that's screwing me up.
 
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Grand Danois

Entertainer
swerve said:
Yes, tracing my ancestors. Looking at Nyborg, early C18 right now. As for reading Danish - well, sort of. I'm OK when it's printed modern Danish, but I'm struggling with old handwriting + unfamiliar abbreviations + archaic spelling. Bad enough when it's in English, but when you add in a language which I don't understand well, it's bloody hard. The frustrating thing is that I don't actually need translations, it's the initial reading that's screwing me up.
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Well, most Danes would have problems reading written Danish of the past, I think. But you have your fun set out for you. :)
 
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Soner1980

New Member
Yes I know about this. It's not a new thing but here is my story:

According to the Turkish Hurriyet news paper, the bullet is made of a special kind of metal and first tested to penetrate of normal steel plate. The tests taked place in Siberia, I don't remember it anymore wich city but it seems that Russia has started this kind of research after the year 2000 and now that the research will give it's fruits. Also, this kind of bullet can shot by a simple AK-47 auto rifle without any modification. Also, the gunner knows the most weakest place of the tank and pierced some couple of inches inward and disabled the tank from inside without any explosion. So the other crew members doesn't notice that some crewmembers are wounded or even killed.

The danger of spreading this kind of ammo is also very dangerous to the allied forces. Russians producing cheap solutions of a couple of dollars and the coalition spends milions of dollars to kill one such a sniper. Now this is what I call a war.
 
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