who can kill a modern Main Battle Tank (MBT)?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
You do not always have to have peacekeeping missions like in A-Stan.
Just take Kosovo as an example. There was a reason why we entered with many Leopard 2A5.
There is the possibility that you have to do peacekeeping missions in puffer zones between two potent enemies.
 

Boolag

New Member
Excactly, Dear waylander...!!
NZ peacekeepers in Bosnia were confronted with Serb Armour on at least one occasion i believe, If they had needed to engage the only Anti-armour weapons in the Kiwi inventory were the Karl-Gustav RCL and the M72 LAW...even against a serb modified T-55(for example) the odds are less than favourable..

The only armour the Kiwis had there were Scimitars on loan from the British army + they managed to raid and disarm a serb military facility simply by taking them by complete surprise..The serbs had PLENTY of heavy weapons on hand including tanks..and these light tanks rock in at top speed And secure the place without a shot being fired...Cos the serbs WERE NOT expecting it to happen+had no time to react..It coulda gone very differently if the Serbs had been ready for them..
(according to legend, the NZ army's old Scorpions used to tear down the desert road at Waiourou at round 110+/Kph..they used to pass moving tour buses at that speed all the time)


The morale is it dosent matter how big or brutal your tank is..If the enemy dosent have the means to open your tin then they're dog-meat Wether it be a modern M-1A2 or ancient MK-IV Male...your armour will still have the same effect..
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
The Leopard 2A5 also fired warning shots with their main gun above the croud.
Should be very impressive. ;)
During the intervention in Kosovo nobody knew if the serbians really would stand still while the peacekeeping tropps moved into Kosovo.

During this time the Danish army had the idea to put big coax lights onto their tanks. It lets cool down some heads if you know that a Leo is lighting you up wih its main gun.
 

merocaine

New Member
NZ peacekeepers in Bosnia were confronted with Serb Armour on at least one occasion i believe, If they had needed to engage the only Anti-armour weapons in the Kiwi inventory were the Karl-Gustav RCL and the M72 LAW...even against a serb modified T-55(for example) the odds are less than favourable
There you go, I stand corrected.
How come the German army doesent have modern anti weapons?!
 

Boolag

New Member
Does anyone remember the Bar mine as used by the british army???
1980's books about NATO used to show them being laid by landrovers + fv432's.
are they still a credible anti-tank weapon?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
It is not like that we have no ATGMs.
We have HOT and Milan. We also have the mentioned Panzerfaust 3 (Not an ATGM) and there is a new version of it with a digital optic which helps you targeting.
But these ATGMs are not state of the art.
We are searching for a new one and it looks like it is going to be Eurospike but Milan ER is still not out of the competition.
PARS 3 for our Tigers is also near to introduction.
And it is said to say that there is no ATGM integrated into our Puma IFV. Maybe when Eurospike/Milan ER is available this changes.
I don't like the idea of an IFV without some AT-capabilities.
 

caksz

New Member
Western MBT is lacking ERA right ? With the Current conflicts , is there a Possibility western MBT will be install with ERA ? as a standard built ... correct me if im wrong :p , what will be a solution for MBT to survive ATGM ? extra 10 tons of armor :( ?
 

DoC_FouALieR

New Member
caksz said:
Western MBT is lacking ERA right ? With the Current conflicts , is there a Possibility western MBT will be install with ERA ? as a standard built ... correct me if im wrong :p , what will be a solution for MBT to survive ATGM ? extra 10 tons of armor :( ?
No, development of Hard Kill protection system will do the job..
And by the way, the Léo 2 A6 isn't fitted with some kind of reactive add-on armor?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
No, there's no ERA system.
But we use ERA on our Panzerhaubitze 2000 on the top against counterfire bomblets.
 

extern

New Member
caksz said:
what will be a solution for MBT to survive ATGM ? extra 10 tons of armor :( ?
1) Active protection systems (Arena, Shtora, Trophy, Iron Fist) 2) ERA on the sides and top.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I also think that a mixture of active protection systems and classic passive armor will be the future.
Not only one special systems but a mixture of both.
 

extern

New Member
Waylander said:
No, there's no ERA system.
But we use ERA on our Panzerhaubitze 2000 on the top against counterfire bomblets.
May it be CLARA (Composite Lightweight Adaptable Reactive Armour) ERA of Dynamit Nobel Defence GmbH and Verseidag-Indutex GmbH on composite plastic Ultrax, huh?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I don't know, but here are some pics with and without camo.
Normally this armor is not installed because of maintenance and safety benefits.
 
Last edited:

KGB

New Member
Does the Merkava employ any APS or ERA? By hindsight it would have been obvious that the most likely threat Israeli armor would be facing would be IEDs and ATGMs. Its neighbors's tanks are a generation older aren
t they?
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
They are using some kind of APS and a laser jammer. I forgot the name but I am searching for it.
The IDF answered the question why they do not use their ERA systems on their Merks with the answer that ERA is not very usefull against modern tandem warhead ATGMs and normal armour together with APS is the only protection against modern ATGMs.
 

psyclops

New Member
Merkavas and ERA/APS

Although the Merkavas are able to fit APS, so far none have been employed AFAIK due to funding restraints. This may change in light of recent events, and we may start seeing some Trophy systems in addition to the jammers we've seen in some pictures. No Merkavas have been fitted with ERA (operationally at least), but maybe they'll consider putting it on their Mk 2s now. The Mk 3 Dor Dalets and Mk 4s seem to have done pretty well overall.
 

Waylander

Defense Professional
Verified Defense Pro
I think a saw a picture of an APS (Maybe Trophy) in action but I might be wrong.
I'm going to do some recon. :)
 

erikjm71

New Member
Depends on what type of kill, mobility or catastrophic. Mobility meaning it cant move but still shoot and function. Catastrophic meaning completely destroyed. Also experience of the crew. No an abrams is not completely indestructable, but it will take a heck of a weapon system to do any damage.
We can have all kinds of opinions but until we have a full scale mechanized war tank vs tank we may never know. M1s in Iraq are being primarily used in support of MOUT(military operations urban terrain) operations, in case you haven't noticed the insurgency does not have tanks. The M1 has never really been pushed to the limit in tank vs tank warfare. Desert storm is where they were put to use in total warfare. Yes they were highly succesful against soviet T-series tanks but not top of the line. Since then the M1 until Iraq has been taking it easy, in the Balkans they were just being used for patrols,checkpoints and a show of force.
Unless we have an all out war with a country that has a serious tank like the Merkava,T-90, challenger,leopard, lecerc and so forth we may never know. In desert storm M1s were hit by other M1s because of the fratricide problem. So we can say that heat or sabot round from the abrams can take out an M1. Well guess what, the main gun on a merkava can fire the same round as an abrams. So if a merkava is using the same round as an abrams, then what is going to determine what tank is better?
The survivability and crew experience are probaly the main factors. Speed,manueverability are other important factors. Given todays current world situations alot of countries are using there armor in low intensity conflicts and guerrila wars in stead of full scale war. The recent conflict with Israel and Hezzballoh is a prime example. A conventional army(IDF) with one of the most sophistaced tank in the world(merkava4) going up against a militia with no armor. Details are sketchy but somemerkavas destroyed wheter catstrophic or mobility I dont know but they were pitted against russian anti take weapon systems. Any enemy well entrenched in favorable terrain for them is going to make it difficult for tanks. Especially with out support, such as infantry protecting flanks, artillery support, engineers breaching and so forth. Abrams are running into problems with AT weapons in Iraq, the previous responses to this thread have explained this.
Conclusion, unless every country with a serious tank all agree to put there tank up against another and have some type of elimination tournament to determine the biggest baddest tank we will never know. Now a days tanks are being destroyed by AT weapons and landmines, not other tanks. You dont have to destroy a tank to pieces to stop a tank, obstacle, denying terrain can be just as effective depending on the situation. So if we go to war with the Israelis than we can hope to learn which is better the Merkava or Abrams.
So unless we want every country witha good tank to go to war against each other we can just wonder. Kind of like rooting for your favorite sports team, until they play against each other we will never know.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top