Which do you think was/is the Greatest Empire ever?

[fraken_14]

you can easily see that the romans were far more technologically advanced then anyone of their time because when they were finally defeated by the barbarians the rest of the world pretty much went back hundreds of years in technology. The world went into the Dark Ages because rome fell.

 

[mysterious]

The world went into the Dark Ages because rome fell.

The 'world' went in to Dark Ages? My friend, Dark Ages is an invention of western thought to classify the time period when almost 'nothing' significant was happening in the western world. I dont think you can count the rest of the world in the Dark Ages just because the west was slumbering. The Dark Ages was essentially the time period when the Eastern world was blooming right up to the Renaissance when the Western world woke up from its slumber. I know they hardly teach that in schools in the western world because obviously they dont want everyone going around praising the eastern world for its achievements. Look it up. :coffee

 

[SABRE]

anyways...consider if germans had won the war....what kind of empire would it have been under the ceaser Hitler? & what it could have been today?

If that had happened, I see significant geographic changes. e.g: there would be no jewish state (most probably).

 

[fraken_14]

they'd probably force alot of the youth to join the Nazi Youth groups like they did in german. And there would be alot of people dying their hair blonde.

 

[Pendekar]

i've been wondering, what's blonde hair have to do with Nazi.

 

[Pendekar]

Also China, the middle kindom, was a large empires where asian states paid tributaries to China without China using force. Also China provided much scientifically from gunpowder to paper.

Chinese empire reached the furthest during the time of Tang Dynasty. in order to secure the silk road, they advanced as far as kashmir and kabul. but it's only a brief while. during this time also, the arabs were also expanding to the east. when the two met, thus resulted in the Battle of Talas river which the Arabs achieved a decisive triumph.

 

[adsH]

The 'world' went in to Dark Ages? My friend, Dark Ages is an invention of western thought to classify the time period when almost 'nothing' significant was happening in the western world. I dont think you can count the rest of the world in the Dark Ages just because the west was slumbering. The Dark Ages was essentially the time period when the Eastern world was blooming right up to the Renaissance when the Western world woke up from its slumber. I know they hardly teach that in schools in the western world because obviously they dont want everyone going around praising the eastern world for its achievements. Look it up. :coffee

Hey Myst I found this Article I found it very interesting. This is something i am researching.

Centuries in the House of Wisdom

Iraq's golden age of science brought us algebra, optics, windmills and much more, writes Brian Whitaker

Thursday September 23, 2004
The Guardian

For most of the last 5,000 years, Iraq was a key centre of scientific knowledge. Mathematics, developed initially for keeping accounts, gradually spread into far more ambitious areas such as predictive astronomy, making use of data painstakingly collected and recorded at the temples of Uruk and Babylon over several centuries.
During the first century after the birth of Islam, Muslim armies defeated the Persians and moved into Iraq. Around 762, the Abbasid caliphs established their capital in the newly founded city of Baghdad from where they ruled the vast Muslim empire for the next five centuries.

This was the high point of Islamic civilisation, when scholars of various religions from around the world flocked to the Bayt al-Hikma (House of Wisdom), an unrivalled centre for the study of humanities and for sciences, including mathematics, astronomy, medicine, chemistry, zoology and geography, as well as some more dubious subjects such as alchemy and astrology.

Drawing on Persian, Indian and Greek texts - Aristotle, Plato, Hippocrates, Euclid, Pythagoras and others - the scholars accumulated the greatest collection of knowledge in the world, and built on it through their own discoveries.

These developments in Iraq were made possible by widespread literacy and also by the availability of paper as an everyday writing material. The first paper arrived in Iraq from China, probably along the silk route via Samarkand, in the eighth century - long before it reached Europe. Shortly afterwards, a paper mill was established in Baghdad, and by the end of the 10th century, paper had replaced parchment and papyrus in the Arab world.

Probably the most famous mathematician at the House of Wisdom was al-Khawarizmi, known as the father of algebra - a word derived from the title of his book, Kitab al-Jabr.

Several important figures are also associated with the southern city of Basra, another key centre of learning. Al-Jahiz, born in Basra in 776, seems to have come from an ordinary background and as a youth helped his father to sell fish. His most famous work was the seven-volume Book of Animals which included his observations on the social organisation of ants, communication between animals and the effects of diet and environment. Altogether, he wrote about 200 books on a wide range of topics, including The Art of Keeping One's Mouth Shut and Against Civil Servants. He died at the age of 92, allegedly when a pile of books in his personal library fell on top of him.

Al-Masu'di, who died in 957, spent some time in Basra writing about his travels to India, China and East Africa. As with many scholars of his day, his interests were broad and his writing contained elements of history, geography, sociology and anthropology which, unusually for the time, he approached in an analytical way. He also explored problems in the earth sciences - such as the causes of earthquakes - and was also the first writer to mention windmills, invented by Muslims in Sijistan.

Ibn al-Haytham (also known as Alhazen) worked as a civil servant in 10th-century Basra before taking up science. Moving later to Egypt, he became head of a project to regulate the flow of the Nile but, on investigation, he decided it was impossible. This annoyed the Fatimid caliph in Cairo, and Ibn al-Haytham reputedly escaped punishment by pretending to be mad until the caliph died.

Among the mathematical problems he explored was the squaring of the circle. He also wrote a seven-volume treatise on optics and the nature of light. This explored reflection from plane and curved surfaces, refraction, and the structure of the eye - though he did not understand the importance of the lens.

Iraqi science went into decline, partly because of natural disasters such as floods, but also for reasons that are familiar today: religious rivalries and problems with internal security. In 1258 the Mongols sacked Baghdad and, according to some accounts, the Tigris and Euphrates ran red with the blood of scholars.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/story/0,13026,1310285,00.html

 

[mysterious]

Like I said, so much for Mr. Fraken's 'dark ages'!!

 

[Raven_Wing278]

surely china was one of the greatest empire there was but i dont see it get much attention in this forum.how did the chinese empire compare to the rest of the world back then? whether in terms of military power or technologies?
:coffee

 

[doggychow14]

China was surely one of the greatest empire. It was the roman empire of the orient. It helped spark the European renassaince with it's technologies. However it's downfall is with it's leadership. I believe during the ming dynasty, the emperor cut relations with the outside world thus new ideas from europe, the middle east, russia was never introduced into Chinese society. It is believed that Chinese sailors had come to the America's, but the Chinese society was never imperial. Thus their influence never spread. The Europeans, however, borrowed technologies from all over the world and created a modern society (The US can be thought as an extention of the European society). Many of the mathmetics that are tought today, are named after europeans who discovered them but in reality many were discovered by the Chinese first such as the Pascal's triangle.

 

[mysterious]

Many of the mathematics tought today are named after Europeans? Clarify that statement please! Just 'cuz Europeans changed the names of Arab mathematicians cuz they couldn't pronounce them, doesn't make them European! And thats not just limited to Mathematicians. Averoes, Avicenna, etc are all european names for ARABS who made great advances in all subjects of the time ranging from mathematics, astrology, philosophy to religious sciences, etc. The most stark evidence are the numerals we use in mathematics these days, those are "Arabic" numerals!

 

[ashblackhawk]

Many of the mathematics tought today are named after Europeans? Clarify that statement please! Just 'cuz Europeans changed the names of Arab mathematicians cuz they couldn't pronounce them, doesn't make them European! And thats not just limited to Mathematicians. Averoes, Avicenna, etc are all european names for ARABS who made great advances in all subjects of the time ranging from mathematics, astrology, philosophy to religious sciences, etc. The most stark evidence are the numerals we use in mathematics these days, those are "Arabic" numerals!

I rather suspect the history published in this regard, I think arab numerals are just copy cat from Indian Sanskrit Numerals, Also i presume most of arabs acquired the knowledge of maths,astronomy,philosophy from ancient indian university named "nalanda" , http://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/about/NalandaHeritage_set.htmlhttp://www.nalanda.nitc.ac.in/about/NalandaHeritage_set.html
www.kalavinka.org/pilgmage/nalapics/nalapics.htm , which dates back 5th century a.d. and 5 centuries ahead of Oxford University. Also the arabs/europeans did lot of trade with ancient india which i think had been key to development of arab numerals.

 

[mysterious]

Of course the Arabic numerals did not just appear out of thin air. There were aspects taken from ancient Greek and Indian cultures and 'perfected'. Thats how humanity has progressed over the course of time. That is the reason you dont use other numerals today because they weren't perfect! That is the reason why the world remembers Averoes, Avicenna and others because they perfected what they learnt from others and took that knowledge and material to new heights; knowledge that laid the foundations to present day successes of the West.

Here's a hint: Find out why present day Iraq has a nickname 'craddle of civilization'. I'll even give you two short answers; Mesopotamia and Islamic Empire. :coffee

 

[doggychow14]

At the same time as mesopatania, and the gyption empire, the Chinese empire and the Indian smpire fourished. There is also a reason why China was nicknamed the middle kindom. It was only at the dawn of the 20th century when the western world's GDP surpassed the east.

 

[mysterious]

That also only happened after the Western world's imperial powers learned the sacred rule of 'divide and rule' to manipulate the cohesiveness of the Eastern world resulting in a complete withdrawal from the world stage on economic terms. But I think the days are coming closer when the Eastern World will come full-circle!

 

[gf0012-aust]

At the same time as mesopatania, and the gyption empire, the Chinese empire and the Indian smpire fourished. There is also a reason why China was nicknamed the middle kindom. It was only at the dawn of the 20th century when the western world's GDP surpassed the east.

I suspect you're being a bit cavalier with definition here. GDP was never a measure of absolute wealth until after WW2.

In real terms what empire ever rivalled the British Empire? The nations that are superpowers in more than the military sense were also the predominant trading powers at an intercontinental level.

Rome, Turkey, Byzantime, Persian, Dutch, Spanish, English all qualify. The US never had an empire in the classicist sense - but they have been the dominant economic and military power for between 100 to 50 years depending on how you assess their military capability. Typically it is measured from the end of WW1 or the period revolving around the Washington Treaty.

As for the notion of divide and conquer, that was something the european powers were guilty of amongst themselves - it was never a dictated and definiable policy of any of the major powers to deal with the middle east or asia. China itself is a classic example of a massive empire that was riven with internal conflict well before and during the arrival of "roundeyes".

 

[ashblackhawk]

Rome, Turkey, Byzantime, Persian, Dutch, Spanish, English all qualify. The US never had an empire in the classicist sense - but they have been the dominant economic and military power for between 100 to 50 years depending on how you assess their military capability. Typically it is measured from the end of WW1 or the period revolving around the Washington Treaty.

I think world needs to think/look beyond the history of last 3,000 years. Everyone knows enough about last 2,500 years. I presume civilizations did existed before 3,000 years which are interesting to be looked into. The incas, Egyptians, mesopotamia, vedic indian, harrapans, java, chinease, (russia, central asia is unexplored)are all interesting to be looked into. I am surprised by the facts that there are no ancient palace's/other old planned cities found in egyptian soil which could throw more light. It seems that egypt was only a burial ground !! its more important to look into ancient port cities which could have drowned because of natural calamities/diseases/weatherchange.

 

[ashblackhawk]

Here's a hint: Find out why present day Iraq has a nickname 'craddle of civilization'. I'll even give you two short answers; Mesopotamia and Islamic Empire.

I think sumerians are more than 9,000 years old which is about 5,000 years older than mesopotamian's(which is approximated of age 4,500), and i dont believe there was anything islamic about those empire's . Infact, they were worshippers of sun god and idols (which is banned in islamic traditions), so we can presume that middle-east is not the land of arabs, they were people from other realms/dynasty/civilization which were conquered, massacred and destroyed by invading arabs . As we move further in technology and analysis, truth will be more clear.:coffee

 

[pasukangeraktjepat]

so we can presume that middle-east is not the land of arabs, they were people from other realms/dynasty/civilization which were conquered, massacred and destroyed by invading arabs . As we move further in technology and analysis, truth will be more clear.:coffee

I don't know exactly whether middle-east people is an arabian people or not.But if you're argument is correct i still think that Islamic Value have inspire the people that live in the area.

 

[ashblackhawk]

I don't know exactly whether middle-east people is an arabian people or not.But if you're argument is correct i still think that Islamic Value have inspire the people that live in the area.

People in middle-east are arabs but, the people who originally lived in sumeria mesopotamia,egypt had nothing to do with islam.Moreover there is no single trace of Islamic value nor we can relate that they used to follow islamic value's. As compared to sumerian/mesopotamian civilization islamic,christian,buddhist traditions are way too young. No doubt middle east is source of inspiration or certainly old as far as civilizations are concerned, but nothing related to religion at all.