hovercraft
New Member
f-22 for sale, good news for pakistan
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USAF Plans to sell F22's to "trusted allies" very soon
- Thread starter Sea Dog
- Start date
mysterious
New Member
I'm not sure which part of the article wasn't clear to you but it talks about 'trusted allies'; which traditionally refers to Australia, UK and Japan. Even Israel doesn't figure in that catagory so where did Pakistan come in from?
Facts are different from fantasy my friend.
Facts are different from fantasy my friend.
hovercraft
New Member
in last few days pakistanies burnt several times us flags in many cities so may be this thing increases the trust of usa
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cherry said:Unfortunately, with the F-22, along with most US made defence equipment, the price is far too much for most trusted countries to afford. The US defence industry are pricing the allies of the US out of the alliance, and the US Government are allowing it to happen. Eventually true allies of the US will not be able to purchase top technology from the States simply because of ridiculously inflated costs. The UK are a perfect example of this. They are continuing to build on their defence industry and getting more European countries involved to build cheaper and pretty much just as good quality equipment as the US. This negates most of the reliance on highly expensive US equipment. And for this reason countries like Australia are beginning to purchase more and more European equipment ie Tiger ARH, MRH-90, either Spanish or French LHD, A-A refeuling tankers, etc. The US need to reel their industry in to maintain the ability for their allies to purchase their equipment.
Well since the fully capable F22 price is almost at the same the level of the very, very , very marginally equipped RAFALE, if the F22 is offered to you, what would you do?? Buy RAFALE??? Give us all a break!!!
BTW, nothing, and I repeat in bold, NOTHING, is ever "cheaper and pretty much just as good." Somehow you believe that Vielle Europe has obtained the keys to wonderland and is now able to do something that no one else on Earth can do, that is to build "cheaper and pretty much just as good." Building cheaper? Perhaps certain things. Just as good? Nope. To belive your statement is as moronic as those who expound the "you can do more with less" crap.
Australia was smart to purchase the Tiger and the NH90 because they share many of the same dynamics components and thus becomes an ease upon their maintenance system. Pray tell where the "cheaper but just as good" Aussie AWACS come from? Or the "cheaper but just as good" tanks for Australia? Or where more than likely the next "cheaper but just as good" heavy-lift 4-engine jet transport is going to come from?
The only reason that Spanish/Froggie shipyards are able to build units for their own country is due to governmental subsidies (just like Airbus). Remove those subsidies and watch their next LHD being built in Korea--which btw, is where major portions of the next Aussie DDG will be built. NOT IN "CHEAPER BUT JUST AS GOOD" Spain or France!!!
:nutkick
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I definitely would not sell the F-22 to Israel, it is too leaky with regard to mil tech sales to China. The Lav is one, I seem to recall a report of chinese scientists working with the tactical laser system Israel is working on with US funds. Trusted would be western allies that have stood with the US, and can be trusted not to onsell to China and other potential problem areas. Mind you Clinton had some US high tech sold to China that has made possible more accurate and mirved Chinese ICBM.
The only likely country to buy any F-22's is Japan. Many of you are correct that the UK isn't going to buy any while trying to support the Eurofighter. The RAAF is struggling with the JSF program, but is seeking a replacement to the F-111. While there is a chance that will happen, but its a slim one. Israel leeks to many secrets to China, so their out. Japan has signed on for the U.S.'s missile defence program. They are also seeking to have more U.S. forces stationed in the their country. F-2 production will be cut short at 100 aircraft, so Japan will need more replacement aircraft for F-4's and old F-15J's. So logically Japan is the best choice for any country to import any F-22's.
LancerMc said:The only likely country to buy any F-22's is Japan. Many of you are correct that the UK isn't going to buy any while trying to support the Eurofighter. The RAAF is struggling with the JSF program, but is seeking a replacement to the F-111. While there is a chance that will happen, but its a slim one. Israel leeks to many secrets to China, so their out. Japan has signed on for the U.S.'s missile defence program. They are also seeking to have more U.S. forces stationed in the their country. F-2 production will be cut short at 100 aircraft, so Japan will need more replacement aircraft for F-4's and old F-15J's. So logically Japan is the best choice for any country to import any F-22's.
Israel has already officially put forth a request for F22's. Assuming a 1-for-1 exchange with both the IDF (F-15's) and JASDF (F-15's only, the F-4 may get replaced by JSF), we're talking about almost 200 units total. That's a great sale in anyone's store!
To that prospective sale, add further USAF buys and next thing you know the F22 is approaching a cost level close to the EF2000, and way below the RAFALE. That may (big assumption on my part) just make it attractive enough to a few more purchasers: Saudi, RAAF, TkAF, and perhaps even the Canucks (with their predilection for long range/twin engine).
Remeber that the F-15 only sold to 4 operators total (USAF, JASDF, IDF, Saudi).
Right now it's almost certain that 3 out of those 4 will purchase.:smokie
F-22 Export Sales
We discussed this on another forum and concluded that export sales to Japan were probable and that sales to Israel were possible and that other sales depended on how much pressure the US wanted put on Iraq and China.
Sea Dog said:Israel has already officially put forth a request for F22's. Assuming a 1-for-1 exchange with both the IDF (F-15's) and JASDF (F-15's only, the F-4 may get replaced by JSF), we're talking about almost 200 units total. That's a great sale in anyone's store!
To that prospective sale, add further USAF buys and next thing you know the F22 is approaching a cost level close to the EF2000, and way below the RAFALE. That may (big assumption on my part) just make it attractive enough to a few more purchasers: Saudi, RAAF, TkAF, and perhaps even the Canucks (with their predilection for long range/twin engine).
Remeber that the F-15 only sold to 4 operators total (USAF, JASDF, IDF, Saudi).
Right now it's almost certain that 3 out of those 4 will purchase.:smokie
We discussed this on another forum and concluded that export sales to Japan were probable and that sales to Israel were possible and that other sales depended on how much pressure the US wanted put on Iraq and China.
chrisrobsoar said:We discussed this on another forum and concluded that export sales to Japan were probable and that sales to Israel were possible and that other sales depended on how much pressure the US wanted put on Iraq and China.
HUH???? How does an F22 sale put pressure on Iraq??????
if the f-22 total gets doubled to around 380, then it should lower the per unit cost of F-22 to around 250 million. Considering it's capabilities, that would be quite a reasonable price. I can tell you right now the Canadians would definitely not get F-22. We would struggle to get money for F-35 as it is.Sea Dog said:Israel has already officially put forth a request for F22's. Assuming a 1-for-1 exchange with both the IDF (F-15's) and JASDF (F-15's only, the F-4 may get replaced by JSF), we're talking about almost 200 units total. That's a great sale in anyone's store!
To that prospective sale, add further USAF buys and next thing you know the F22 is approaching a cost level close to the EF2000, and way below the RAFALE. That may (big assumption on my part) just make it attractive enough to a few more purchasers: Saudi, RAAF, TkAF, and perhaps even the Canucks (with their predilection for long range/twin engine).
Remeber that the F-15 only sold to 4 operators total (USAF, JASDF, IDF, Saudi).
Right now it's almost certain that 3 out of those 4 will purchase.:smokie
Wow USAF must be desprate to sell those F-22s...
I think it's safe to say if Japan gets the F-22, then "Japan Air Self-Defense Force" can be without the "Self-Defense"........ to make "Japan Air Force"...
The balance of power in Asia will unquestionably if Japan gets the F-22
I think it's safe to say if Japan gets the F-22, then "Japan Air Self-Defense Force" can be without the "Self-Defense"........ to make "Japan Air Force"...
The balance of power in Asia will unquestionably if Japan gets the F-22
armage said:The balance of power in Asia will unquestionably if Japan gets the F-22
How many nukes does Japan have in its arsenal? China?
The latest whiz bang fighter will not alter who has the real power between Japan and China.
Supe said:How many nukes does Japan have in its arsenal? China?
The latest whiz bang fighter will not alter who has the real power between Japan and China.
I disagree, by conventional means Japan would still have the edge over China if they get the F-22; but if nuclear weapons are used I would bet Uncle Sam's got Japan's back...
Sea Dog said:HUH???? How does an F22 sale put pressure on Iraq??????
Sorry the brian jumped out of gear, I had ment to say Iran.
If the US really wants to make some cash off this setup they should sell premium spec F22s to Japan and lower spec F22s to China, both countries can afford the bill (especially China) and with the weaker models going to China, the US and Japan can still maintain some sort of superiority in the region.
However I don't think the Chinese are stupid enough to buy lower spec F22s and their reverse engineers will just rip right into the F22s as soon as they get them, if that's the case sell enough to the Chinese and Japanese to keep the balance of power and come up on top with a better trade surplus (for the US).
However I don't think the Chinese are stupid enough to buy lower spec F22s and their reverse engineers will just rip right into the F22s as soon as they get them, if that's the case sell enough to the Chinese and Japanese to keep the balance of power and come up on top with a better trade surplus (for the US).
tphuang said:if the f-22 total gets doubled to around 380, then it should lower the per unit cost of F-22 to around 250 million. Considering it's capabilities, that would be quite a reasonable price. I can tell you right now the Canadians would definitely not get F-22. We would struggle to get money for F-35 as it is.
Lockheed is currently advertising the price at $135 million (US). Was the above price in Canadian dollars?
Even at that price, it's still an a/c for only the very rich & serious, but it is a approximately RAFALE's price and the F22 is clearly a much more capable a/c.
I thought what it's saying is that the fly away cost of F-22 is that much. And then if you factor in the missiles, pods, advanced sensors and development cost, it would be higher.Sea Dog said:Lockheed is currently advertising the price at $135 million (US). Was the above price in Canadian dollars?
Even at that price, it's still an a/c for only the very rich & serious, but it is a approximately RAFALE's price and the F22 is clearly a much more capable a/c.
tphuang said:I thought what it's saying is that the fly away cost of F-22 is that much. And then if you factor in the missiles, pods, advanced sensors and development cost, it would be higher.
The same applies to all combat aircraft. Missiles/pods, are beyond the manufacturer's control; those decisions are left to the individual purchasing nation.
Lockheed can only quote you what the fly away cost for the bird is.
Development costs associated with a new system or an untested weapons system can be shared between the different manufacturers. the plane maker, and the nations interested.
Sea Dog said:Lockheed is currently advertising the price at $135 million (US). Was the above price in Canadian dollars?
Really won't matter what the price is in Canadian dollars since we won't be purchasing the a/c. I firmly believe our eyes are set on the JSF when it becomes available. With our Hornets now up to c/d standard I think you'll see them around for at least another 10 years or so.
Now don't get me wrong, I'd love to see us have a few of them to protect our North from possible invasion but lets be realistic here. We can't afford them. We're upgrading to a new Herc platform (possibly) and C-17's are becoming more and more a reality with our new Conservative gov't.
We'll need a plane that can do everything the Hornet could do in its fighter/attack configuration. IMHO, the best plane for us would be the Super Hornet, not the JSF.
Attila