USAF Plans to sell F22's to "trusted allies" very soon

[Occum]

What Is Good For The Coalition

While I do not have insider information on this deal, I do know the feeling the DoD has of releasing technology and I have to say IMHO the F-22 will stay a US platform only for years to come. Just look at how long it took them to transfer the codes to UK on JSF.

In 2000/2001, senior Defence officials in Australia were told by the USAF that if Australia wanted the F-22, we could have it, in spades.

By the way, have you had a chance to read Group Captain (rtd) Ron Green's submission?

http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/adfair/index.htm

What about the movie, 'Pigs can Fly'? LOL are assured.

 

[gf0012-aust]

What about the movie, 'Pigs can Fly'?

The odds of an American having seen a locally made 7(?) year old Australian locally produced "flick" are probably pretty remote...

re 7(?) year old query, I can't recall whether I picked my copy (VHS only avail then) up at the 99 or 2001 Avalon.

 

[Occum]

Powers of Comprehension

The odds of an American having seen a locally made 7(?) year old Australian locally produced "flick" are probably pretty remote...

There was no such expectation. The operative suggestion was, "This is a movie well worth watching...." <future tense>

Film is available from the Australian Film Archive. Last time I looked, there was a copy in the Pentagon Library, as well. The Congressional Library may also have a copy. Since you have a copy, why not burn a few onto DVD for your mates to have a chortle over while reading the anti-F111 testimony before the Parliamentary Committee.

Given the level of investment made by the Australian tax payer in the AUP, BUP and Sole Operator Programs et al, shouldn't we be looking for some return on that $1bn+ expenditure?

 

[gf0012-aust]

There was no such expectation. The operative suggestion was, "This is a movie well worth watching...." <future tense>

its a good movie, but in real terms are you going to use a 7 year old movie as a reference point for validation of a contemp requirement?

Film is available from the Australian Film Archive. Last time I looked, there was a copy in the Pentagon Library, as well. The Congressional Library may also have a copy. Since you have a copy, why not burn a few onto DVD for your mates to have a chortle over while reading the anti-F111 testimony before the Parliamentary Committee.

I've spent the last 4 days trying to find my copy so that I can burn it to DVD. Alas its lost somewhere in the bowels of my personal library) - not helped by the fact that I've just done another migration back to home and all my ref material is a bit like a dogs breakfast).

btw, its not in the Library of Congress.

Given the level of investment made by the Australian tax payer in the AUP, BUP and Sole Operator Programs et al, shouldn't we be looking for some return on that $1bn+ expenditure?

You're the resident AE/FTE, so maybe you can disperse the fog. re the Pigs escape capsule boosters. my understanding is that they are timestamped for use until 2012(?). On the basis that we apparently have purchased the last of the latest timestamped batch, what are the costs to go out and build a new batch. This bearing in mind that we are the sole customer, so we end up with 12-37 sets (depending on how you want to crunch the attrition and availability numbers) of a discrete package for a platform that would be shelved soon after the current stock are pulled anyway?

 

[Big-E]

In 2000/2001, senior Defence officials in Australia were told by the USAF that if Australia wanted the F-22, we could have it, in spades.

The USAF doesn't decide who gets tech transfers. Where can I pick up a copy of that movie?

 

[Markus40]

Re: F22 Raptor.

I might be wrong on this but i would suggest that the F22 will be an aircraft kept well at home by the US airforce for years to come. It will be available to a special club of nations who the US shares its technology with. IE Israel and the UK. Australia Maybe, depending on whether they uplift the JSF or not.

Maybe this is the reason why smaller numbers are being produced and eventually as a new replacement is made it will be available for sale to other countries. I find it hard for the US to sell off its own Technology for another country to copy cat.

While I do not have insider information on this deal, I do know the feeling the DoD has of releasing technology and I have to say IMHO the F-22 will stay a US platform only for years to come. Just look at how long it took them to transfer the codes to UK on JSF.

 

[XEROX]

Hypothetically speaking, what happens if let’s say Pakistan captures Osama Bin Laden and asks the U.S for a squadron of F/a22s (free) in return for his handover, would they give?

 

[Big-E]

Hypothetically speaking, what happens if let’s say Pakistan captures Osama Bin Laden and asks the U.S for a squadron of F/a22s (free) in return for his handover, would they give?

The only thing the US would give Pakistan is $25 million dollars in reward money and a hardy handshake. They will not shift the balance of air-power to Pakistan for any one man. There is no way on earth with the Paks ties to the PRC that this technology would stay in their hands anyway.:shudder

 

[killbill2]

I bet these are downgraded versions especially in stealth.

 

[Occum]

The USAF doesn't decide who gets tech transfers. Where can I pick up a copy of that movie?

Yep, you are right, though they have a fair representation in the LOEXCOM/ENDP process. Take a look at the Molloy Paper on the Maxwell AFB University site. It explains this policy and how the process works.

Should be able to get a copy of the movie 'Pigs can Fly' from the Australian Film Archive via the web (order it, that is). You should enjoy the grand standing - it is quite a hoot.

:roll2

 

[Awang se]

They have to sell it outside eventualy. it's the only way to bring the price down.

 

[Big-E]

They have to sell it outside eventualy. it's the only way to bring the price down.

If we're only building 381 then the line won't be open long enough to worry about selling it outside and we certainly won't have any to spare to our allies. JSF is the backbone of allied airpower, F-22 just clears the way.

 

[oldsoak]

Quick questions - if anyone gets offered the F22, what F22 are they getting ? Will they get the same stealth features that the US gets or not ?
If so much of the technology is under wraps and even close allies kept in the dark about it, so how do they know that they are indeed getting the same version as the US ?

 

[swerve]

If we're only building 381 then the line won't be open long enough to worry about selling it outside and we certainly won't have any to spare to our allies. JSF is the backbone of allied airpower, F-22 just clears the way.

The USAF would like 381, but the current plan is to build 183. It was down to 179, but 4 were added by the USAF using money they managed to get permission to divert from something else, to keep the line open a bit longer, maybe in the hope of gaining time to increase numbers. At that rate, you're dead right about the line not likely to be open long enough to sell any to allies. They should be placing orders now if they want to secure delivery slots before the long lead items are all delivered & production facilities start closing.

[Edit] Production is now planned to end in 2008. Hurry hurry hurry!

 

[Occum]

Allied Airpower?

If we're only building 381 then the line won't be open long enough to worry about selling it outside and we certainly won't have any to spare to our allies. JSF is the backbone of allied airpower, F-22 just clears the way.

Selling aircraft is what keeps production lines open. Just ask Mr Boeing (commercial as well as military) or even Mr LM.

Could you define what you mean by 'allied airpower'. This sounds awful close to implying you believe the US does not have allies who are are good enough and/or trusted enough allies to have the F-22.

Is this your view?

 

[Big-E]

Selling aircraft is what keeps production lines open. Just ask Mr Boeing (commercial as well as military) or even Mr LM.

Could you define what you mean by 'allied airpower'. This sounds awful close to implying you believe the US does not have allies who are are good enough and/or trusted enough allies to have the F-22.

Is this your view?

So now your going to resort to asking me if I'm a bigot. That's very mature of you. I suggest not trying to dig up something that's not there.

 

[Occum]

Bigot????

So now your going to resort to asking me if I'm a bigot. That's very mature of you. I suggest not trying to dig up something that's not there.

Not at all, me Dear Big E. Can't see how such a description could result from what you said.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigoted

Your words imply that you think the JSF is good enough for allied forces.

To keep things simple and, hopefully, unemotional, let me put the question directly to you.

Do you think the US has allies who are good enough and trusted enough for them to be provided with the F-22 capability?

It is your answer to this question that will determine whether a descriptor like you suggest or some other would be appropriate.

By the way, if you read the Molloy paper you will see what many in the upper echelons of both your organisation and the USAF believe. If you do the OA, you will see why.

Nice avoidance of the point on keeping production lines open, by the way.

 

[Big-E]

Do you think the US has allies who are good enough and trusted enough for them to be provided with the F-22 capability?

Do I think US allies are good enough... good enough how? This is what I'm not following. Do I think they can be trusted to keep the ToT agreement? I have complete faith in the Aussies ability to field and keep the secrets of the F-22. The reality is they don't need nor can afford the aircraft so the point is moot. I would trust the Brits to the same level as long as BAE had nothing to do with it. Japan especially has the technological capabilities to field and maintain this aircraft but the only reservations are the level of penetration in the JSDF by PRC agents. If there are any leaks of these secrets that get back to PRC it could mean drastic change in the balance of power. My worst nightmare is being deployed on a carrier in the South China Sea and have to face 5th Gen aircraft in a cross-straight conflict.:shudder

Nice avoidance of the point on keeping production lines open, by the way.

Did you ask a question about it?

 

[abramsteve]

I get the impression that Big E is trying to say that whilst he has few problems with the F-22 being exported, he doesnt see it happening. Instead he views the F-35 as being the primary export aircraft because its is more affordable and multi role, thus more attractive to Allied nations. Surley if this is the case then he is in no way being bigoted.

Correct me if Im wrong, but thats my take on it anyways...

 

[Big-E]

I get the impression that Big E is trying to say that whilst he has few problems with the F-22 being exported, he doesnt see it happening. Instead he views the F-35 as being the primary export aircraft because its is more affordable and multi role, thus more attractive to Allied nations. Surley if this is the case then he is in no way being bigoted.

Correct me if Im wrong, but thats my take on it anyways...

That's certainly part of it, no one but Japan can afford it, they don't need it as they could get JSF if they got on board. As long as the PRC doesn't get intel on the F-22, JSF will remain the premier export aircraft for decades to come. If they do get the intel then it will become a necessity to start exporting the F-22s. When that day comes I would give my blessing... as if anyone needed it:lol3